The headline of that article literally says "Nordstrom fell to Upscale & Outlet Competition." Orlando can & does support high end retail. Florida Mall cannot.
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A Spirited Summer Special (AKA Phil Holmes Takes Anaheim!)
- Thread starter WDW1974
- Start date
ford91exploder
Resident Curmudgeon
Yes if P&R were an airplane the stall warning horn would be blasting and the stick shaker would be vibrating.
RobidaFlats
Well-Known Member
Is that really the analogy you want to use? The proper reaction to a stall is to point the nose down and dive
MerlinTheGoat
Well-Known Member
Well that was...interesting. Bullet points-
- Disneyland resort has restructured their leadership
- One Disney is dead (in California)
- Star Wars Experience was more ambitious before Orlando demanded budget cuts, these cuts were also applied to DL
- Burbank is putting an end to Orlando's ability to influence CA decisions
- This includes shared spending
- Orlando is probably never going to get better
- DCA's ToT is becoming GOTG (old as hell news)
- Frozen E ticket at Disneyland (also old news)
Most or all of this is very old, with WDW1974 once again being the one that broke the news originally. This article really just goes into greater detail about certain aspects.
It reiterates what spirit said about "One Disney" being dead, at least out in Anaheim. It even seems to signal an end to shared spending at both resorts, claiming that expansion plans were previously slashed due to interference from Orlando (something that will no longer be able to happen). I wasn't aware that Orlando's executives were having any sort of real effect on Disneyland. If true, this influence is being severed. That's probably good news for California, provided the right leaders are allowed power.
Not so good for Orlando though if this article is to be trusted. It almost sounds like Burbank have hit a brick wall with trying to make any change in Orlando. Sounds like they've given up and have severed their influence so at least they can contain the mess to Orlando. There's nothing mentioned about Orlando's execs being reprimanded by Chapek and brought out to Disneyland for a reminder on how to properly run the resort.
However, i'm curious as to what @WDW1974 has to say about this article. He and others have dismissed Micechat for their lack of credibility in recent years.
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VJ
Well-Known Member
I remember when One Disney was announced. I had, even then, realized how bad of an idea it was. It's obvious that WDW, with its budget cuts and far-and-few-between new additions, was the poster child resort to Iger and that One Disney was meant to whip Anaheim into complacency to follow WDW's management style. Thankfully, that seems to have ended and good things are on the horizon for Disneyland. Or at least I hope so... Always in motion is the future.
asianway
Well-Known Member
It seems Spirit breaks the news, then MC regurgitates most of it as an "update" shortly after.
shortstop
Well-Known Member
They did provide more detail than Spirit gave us, so either they made stuff up entirely (possible I suppose) or have legitimate info beyond what can just be read on the boards here.
MerlinTheGoat
Well-Known Member
74 broke most of this news of course, as usual. Where the storyline splits is in regards to the perspective on Orlando, the influence it has and how Burbank are handling it.
Spirit of course stated that Bob Chapek is disappointed in the way that WDW is being run by local management and leadership. As a result, Chapek is tightening the leash on Orlando executives, even bringing them over to Anaheim to tour Disneyland and learn the proper way to run WDW. Spirit's take seems to be that Burbank recognizes WDW's issues and are trying to take control away from Orlando execs to force them to clean up WDW.
Micechat has a different take, the vibe I got from the article is that they think Orlando executives are the ones responsible for most of the problems affecting stateside Disney parks. The vibe I got from the article is that Burbank has basically finally "given up" on Orlando and are cutting ties with them so they can at least fix Disneyland while WDW is left to burn. The idea being that it's a quarantine for Orlando's influence, containing their poor management and stingy nature to WDW so it no longer infects other Disney resorts.
I'm obviously much more inclined to trust Spirit's take on the matter.
Spirit of course stated that Bob Chapek is disappointed in the way that WDW is being run by local management and leadership. As a result, Chapek is tightening the leash on Orlando executives, even bringing them over to Anaheim to tour Disneyland and learn the proper way to run WDW. Spirit's take seems to be that Burbank recognizes WDW's issues and are trying to take control away from Orlando execs to force them to clean up WDW.
Micechat has a different take, the vibe I got from the article is that they think Orlando executives are the ones responsible for most of the problems affecting stateside Disney parks. The vibe I got from the article is that Burbank has basically finally "given up" on Orlando and are cutting ties with them so they can at least fix Disneyland while WDW is left to burn. The idea being that it's a quarantine for Orlando's influence, containing their poor management and stingy nature to WDW so it no longer infects other Disney resorts.
I'm obviously much more inclined to trust Spirit's take on the matter.
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IanDLBZF
Well-Known Member
Hmmm, looks like we have two separate sides to hear from.
ford91exploder
Resident Curmudgeon
Is that really the analogy you want to use? The proper reaction to a stall is to point the nose down and dive
Yes it is get the airflow going before the plane becomes a ballistic object, However Disney would hire consultants to advise them on the proper messaging and press releases rather than push the stick forward so the houses get big....
TP2000
Well-Known Member
Thanks. That was interesting.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
This isn't the first time we have heard that Burbank has realized the problems and going to take some sort of action. They have the tools to fix management issues... let head's roll. The same old people being shuffled around aren't magically going to start doing something different. What is the saying about doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?
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TP2000
Well-Known Member
Agreed. And I can't imagine how a four day business trip that Phil Holmes took to Disneyland would create some sort of leadership epiphany for him, or any other senior WDW executive. There's decades of culture ingrained there.
Holmes was probably just looking forward to racking up some frequent flier miles in Business Class, getting away from the wife for a bit, and enjoying Anaheim's non-humid summer weather. Can't say I blame the poor guy.
ford91exploder
Resident Curmudgeon
Insanity I believe.
KevinYee
Well-Known Member
Thanks
The day job caught up to me. I still post occasionally on the Twitter and Facebook for UltimateOrlando, and more rarely from UltimateOrlando.com itself (a vanity site I've owned since 2004) - but they are seldom of the depth you saw at MiceAge and MousePlanet, and way less frequently.
I still follow everything and read relevant boards and social media accounts (less religiously blogs and sites themselves); I'm just less likely to publicly express my take on it. Hours of the day and all...
I'd have to think hard about how the actual state of WDW should be classified. It's not automatically in full decline; things get plussed, new stuff gets built, and occasionally streets are free of trash. But at the same time, the upcharging is waaaaay out of control, the pricing is as insane as ever (or worse even), and the overall guest experience doesn't really seem on par with a decade ago, let alone two or three decades ago.
So superficially, we've got a Yogi Berra moment. "No one goes there anymore; it's too crowded."
Looking deeper than that, I'd probably come down on the side of believing the business side IS performing, but increasingly through the use of enticements rather than "on the merits." Want 97% hotel occupancy? Boom - free dining. Want to make food and wine more profitable each year? Boom - raise prices slightly, reduce portions slightly, remove freebies, add upcharge events.
People are still buying the product, possibly because increasingly there is a niche product just for them. Early morning Magic Hours or three hours of Late Magic for $150 (or whatever) sounds like a horrible deal to me, but it keeps coming back. Someone is paying for it. Ditto character meals, or fireworks dessert parties. Or hippo treks, or safari meals.
The shift, in other words, is away from a homogenized experience that succeeds for all guests "on the merits" itself, and toward a product that is niche-tailored to your ability to pay and/or interests. To judge by the numbers, it's working for them. The question is whether it's a sustainable trend. Part of me thinks this is a House of Cards.
The core experience is priced so far at premium that people will notice. I just spent 10 days in Paris, many of them at Disneyland Paris. I also visited the regional park Parc Asterix, which costs half the price of Disney. It was fine; great even. Do they have an Elsa with an animated face, or $45 buffets of chicken nuggets and Minnie Mouse's seasonal outfit? Nope, they don't. But it was a satisfying day indeed.
SorcererMC
Well-Known Member
I'm wary of following this great post...but in an attempt to answer the sustainability question...
I want to add that the risk of catering to a personalized niche or boutique consumer market via price discrimination is
1. Once that experience has been had, what is the customer's motivation to repeat it, at those prices? (It takes an inordinate amount of time to build new attractions).
2. The core experience becomes comparatively 'less than', and softens demand (as do higher prices).
The result of focusing on niche 'premium' experience comes 'at the expense' of the core audience or average guest. The company then begins to rely more on those higher-paying customers than its larger customer base, and the company is simultaneously more susceptible to shifts in the consumer market (when those higher-paying customers stop going; and TWDC would have to be ahead of those shifts). I don't see how that kind of profit-max strategy is sustainable long-term - they would have to constantly be attracting new (and repeat) consumers willing to pay those higher prices in sufficient numbers for what could now be considered a 'luxury good'.
If the layoffs in sales and marketing are any indication, they are not. (They have wrongly estimated their price elasticity of demand).
Edit: And I don't think they regard Universal Orlando as a 'substitute good', but I bet a lot of their customers do....
tirian
Well-Known Member
Let's frame this because it's a perfect explanation of almost every problem in WDW right now.
tirian
Well-Known Member
Let's frame this too.
And it's great to hear from you, @KevinYee.
And it's great to hear from you, @KevinYee.
Thanks
The day job caught up to me. I still post occasionally on the Twitter and Facebook for UltimateOrlando, and more rarely from UltimateOrlando.com itself (a vanity site I've owned since 2004) - but they are seldom of the depth you saw at MiceAge and MousePlanet, and way less frequently.
I still follow everything and read relevant boards and social media accounts (less religiously blogs and sites themselves); I'm just less likely to publicly express my take on it. Hours of the day and all...
I'd have to think hard about how the actual state of WDW should be classified. It's not automatically in full decline; things get plussed, new stuff gets built, and occasionally streets are free of trash. But at the same time, the upcharging is waaaaay out of control, the pricing is as insane as ever (or worse even), and the overall guest experience doesn't really seem on par with a decade ago, let alone two or three decades ago.
So superficially, we've got a Yogi Berra moment. "No one goes there anymore; it's too crowded."
Looking deeper than that, I'd probably come down on the side of believing the business side IS performing, but increasingly through the use of enticements rather than "on the merits." Want 97% hotel occupancy? Boom - free dining. Want to make food and wine more profitable each year? Boom - raise prices slightly, reduce portions slightly, remove freebies, add upcharge events.
People are still buying the product, possibly because increasingly there is a niche product just for them. Early morning Magic Hours or three hours of Late Magic for $150 (or whatever) sounds like a horrible deal to me, but it keeps coming back. Someone is paying for it. Ditto character meals, or fireworks dessert parties. Or hippo treks, or safari meals.
The shift, in other words, is away from a homogenized experience that succeeds for all guests "on the merits" itself, and toward a product that is niche-tailored to your ability to pay and/or interests. To judge by the numbers, it's working for them. The question is whether it's a sustainable trend. Part of me thinks this is a House of Cards.
The core experience is priced so far at premium that people will notice. I just spent 10 days in Paris, many of them at Disneyland Paris. I also visited the regional park Parc Asterix, which costs half the price of Disney. It was fine; great even. Do they have an Elsa with an animated face, or $45 buffets of chicken nuggets and Minnie Mouse's seasonal outfit? Nope, they don't. But it was a satisfying day indeed.
Ummmmmm no, the meeting went something like this. Get your house in order or else. All things are not well. Chappie is Igers ax man. Soon Chappie will have his in Orlando. Is Holmes the guy? We will see. There is no more "One Disney" Holmes is the only one left ion Orlando that has any balls. Fix the thing or I will cut them off. Uncle George wants out even more then I thought he did. Mid-upper management in Otown are shaking in their sandals. Things are only going to get worse in Orlando. Worse meaning Chappie wants it streamlined. Not cut but a well oiled machine. The good news is look for things like cleanliness to get better. The bad news is WDW will continue to be no more then an ATM for DIS. Just a more efficient ATM.
flyerjab
Well-Known Member
If anyone on these forums knows my posts, I am typically a positive poster regarding WDW. I have no nostalgia coloring my impression of today's WDW as I only started visiting in 2009.
Well, this won't be that kind of post. We went to the MK today after the rain stopped and it was crowded, and it was filthy. It looked like a huge dumpster tipped over and trash just blew everywhere. The FP line for Buzz had trash and garbage all through the line. Tomorrowland was a mess in general to the point it was shameful. I would have been embarrassed if I had brought someone there for there first visit and saw this. Also, you could smell the bathrooms in Tommorowland from about 50 feet away. We were sitting at the Launching Pad having a drink and there was litter everywhere. The cast members with the dust pans that walk around were there but they were barely trying. You could also see guests just placing garbage on the ground - when there was a trash can 20 feet away,
Then we went to Frontierland and got on the FP line for BTMRR...
How's that look for the most magical place on Earth?
Oh, let us not forget what I found on the monorail for the trip back to the Poly...
Disgusting is all I can say.
It is a shame that the cleanest, most enjoyable part of our trip thus far has been our resort (Poly), and our time spent in DS. You can tell the parks are not staffed or managed appropriately for crowds. I hope that Chappie is serious about having this resort run better. This is supposed to be Disney's flagship resort, and the MK was appalling today. They need to get their act together in Orlando. We throw a lot of money around in the swamps, and we are also DVC members. But I will tell you this; I won't continue to if this is the state that the parks are in when I am visiting. It is a shame too, because as I said above, the deluxe resorts are still very nice. And what they have done in DS is tremendous. We spend so much time there now, and it is clean and the restaurants are excellent. I am also looking forward to the expansions and new lands and rides that are coming to all of the parks. But why should we keep coming if the parks end up looking like the MK did today? What a disappointment.
Well, this won't be that kind of post. We went to the MK today after the rain stopped and it was crowded, and it was filthy. It looked like a huge dumpster tipped over and trash just blew everywhere. The FP line for Buzz had trash and garbage all through the line. Tomorrowland was a mess in general to the point it was shameful. I would have been embarrassed if I had brought someone there for there first visit and saw this. Also, you could smell the bathrooms in Tommorowland from about 50 feet away. We were sitting at the Launching Pad having a drink and there was litter everywhere. The cast members with the dust pans that walk around were there but they were barely trying. You could also see guests just placing garbage on the ground - when there was a trash can 20 feet away,
Then we went to Frontierland and got on the FP line for BTMRR...
How's that look for the most magical place on Earth?
Oh, let us not forget what I found on the monorail for the trip back to the Poly...
Disgusting is all I can say.
It is a shame that the cleanest, most enjoyable part of our trip thus far has been our resort (Poly), and our time spent in DS. You can tell the parks are not staffed or managed appropriately for crowds. I hope that Chappie is serious about having this resort run better. This is supposed to be Disney's flagship resort, and the MK was appalling today. They need to get their act together in Orlando. We throw a lot of money around in the swamps, and we are also DVC members. But I will tell you this; I won't continue to if this is the state that the parks are in when I am visiting. It is a shame too, because as I said above, the deluxe resorts are still very nice. And what they have done in DS is tremendous. We spend so much time there now, and it is clean and the restaurants are excellent. I am also looking forward to the expansions and new lands and rides that are coming to all of the parks. But why should we keep coming if the parks end up looking like the MK did today? What a disappointment.
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