A Spirited Perfect Ten

Section106

Section106

Active Member
I still don't understand how an alleged disagreement essentially about style could harm a multi-billion dollar business arrangement? Is the Chinese government going to steal billions from TWDC? So what they don't like Iger's style? Big Deal. Money talks....

And if that happens I don't necessarily buy that this would be bad for domestic park investment. Wouldn't TWDC have to try and recoup their lost investments by turning to their other products and properties? I almost want China to kick Disney out so we can have a real national debate about how horrible that government is.
 
PhotoDave219

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
Section106 said:
I still don't understand how an alleged disagreement essentially about style could harm a multi-billion dollar business arrangement? Is the Chinese government going to steal billions from TWDC? So what they don't like Iger's style? Big Deal. Money talks....

And if that happens I don't necessarily buy that this would be bad for domestic park investment. Wouldn't TWDC have to try and recoup their lost investments buy turning to their other products and properties? I almost want China to kick Disney out so we can have a real national debate about how horrible that government is.
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That's the thing.... In China? Money doesn't talk the way it does in America.
 
lazyboy97o

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
ford91exploder said:
Because of the credibility, For many years bits of the NSA's domestic spying programs came out on sites like Infowars, Cryptome and Judicial Watch. It took The Guardian to break it for everyone to see, And STILL the american media does not want to cover it, They would rather throw SQUIRRELS like Caitlyn Jenner and the Kardashians at people.
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It would be a start.
 
spacemt354

spacemt354

Chili's
AEfx said:
My apologies, as I directly replied to you earlier saying I was looking for "the truth" and then you said that people aren't looking for "the truth" and called them out.

In that case, I'm not sure who you were discussing in your summary - because per my reply, I don't see a single person here who fits the "group of members that, whether it be envy or simply disdain for his style of posting, critic and try to besmirch everything he says" that you associated with folks who are looking for the said truth.

That sounds like some WDW1974 rhetoric, and as you were parroting it and there is no evidence of such, I apologize for my assumption. I guess you were just talking to the wind.
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No, you'd have to admit there are people who just simply don't like his posting style, or his opinions, or the information that is provided, so they simply critic to critic. A member joins today just to call to question the OPs credentials? That's who I was quoting.

You're really going to the wrong guy if you think I'm parroting 74 rhetoric. I don't agree with everything he says, nor the way he says it at times, nor do I really feel the need to jump the gun and believe everything regarding the Shanghai situation just yet.

"The Truth" you're looking for is not going to come from here, not anytime soon at least. Doesn't mean you shouldn't seek it, as I seek it as well, but it's just not going to happen anytime soon.
 
ford91exploder

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
Section106 said:
I still don't understand how an alleged disagreement essentially about style could harm a multi-billion dollar business arrangement? Is the Chinese government going to steal billions from TWDC? So what they don't like Iger's style? Big Deal. Money talks....

And if that happens I don't necessarily buy that this would be bad for domestic park investment. Wouldn't TWDC have to try and recoup their lost investments by turning to their other products and properties? I almost want China to kick Disney out so we can have a real national debate about how horrible that government is.
Click to expand...

TWDC would likely recoup the same way they did for the losses at DLP, Cut back on investments elsewhere, I also think it would be a good thing for american business if a high profile company lost it's shirt over Chinese business practices.
 
AEfx

AEfx

Well-Known Member
Section106 said:
I still don't understand how an alleged disagreement essentially about style could harm a multi-billion dollar business arrangement? Is the Chinese government going to steal billions from TWDC? So what they don't like Iger's style? Big Deal. Money talks....
Click to expand...

The allegations made have gone much further than that. There is allegedly 800M in misappropriated funds, and stories being quashed with quid pro quo (with a specific journalist called out by name from the WSJ) that would have a large impact on the perceptions of Disney stockholders.

It's way past the "Iger is an idiot" nonsense.
 
Iwerks64

Iwerks64

Well-Known Member
This is an internet message board, not a court of law or the Spanish Inquisition. I have lurked here for many years and followed numerous special interest topics through the Usenet days to now. At the end of the day, everyone needs to make up their own mind what to believe and what not to believe. You'll never get facts, proof, data, sources, citations to fully back up any statement on a message board. Either people don't have them, can't reveal them, or people won't believe them anyway. It becomes far to easy to throw that accusation back at any poster.

For the majority of high level topics being bandied about, most of those direct facts will see never the light here on a message board. Do I think that Disney has fumbled their entry into China? Absolutely based on my experience and what I've seen. Is the relationship unhealthy between TWDC and Shendi, looks like it to me, again based on my experience. Did the additional $800 million not go towards increased attractions at opening day? Sure looks like it. These all seem pretty straightforward. Do I have facts and data to back it up? Nope. Do I need any? Nope.

I believe mr. @WDW1974 has laid the trail of breadcrumbs for people to follow. It's up to each of us individually to decide whether you believe there's something there and choose to think about the trail. If you have dealt with large joint ventures in China, both good and bad, the "leaked" document is not far fetched in the slightest. Would I like to see the original? You bet, but I also respect posters' need for anonymity. The missing $800M, did it go for bribes? Could be, happens all the time in China ( and don't be fooled by China's public crackdown on graft). If it did, did Eiger know? None of us will probably never know. I think it's more likely that it went for cost overruns and rebuilds due to shoddy construction. But again, I doubt we'll ever have irrefutable facts detailing it.

Do I think Gary Snyder's article "Disney CEO fumbles entry to China" was pulled at Disney's request? Yes and I don't believe it had anything to do with Mr. Snyder misrepresenting his credentials. Will we ever see court documents and phone records detailing what went down? No, but HuffPo immediately retracting their statement is telling.

WSJ not touching the potential story on China? There are posters here with direct journalism experience much more than I have. Some of them I know and trust. Is it plausible that there was a quid pro quo? Absolutely. But I'll never know for certain.

I for one think the story is fascinating. There appears to be enough circumstantial evidence to be concerned and make me want to continue following and digging in to the story. As someone who has dealt with international expansion of companies and the difficulties in China, I'm especially interested. As a lifelong fan of Walt Disney and the Disney legacy, I'm all the more fascinated. I'm just enjoying the rational discussion and the potential pieces of information to put together a narrative. The argumentation, I'm not enjoying as much.
 
AEfx

AEfx

Well-Known Member
Skyway said:
This was a year out, too. And much more spoiler-filled than the Frozen info:
http://mintcrocodile.blogspot.com/2010/06/blue-sky-cellar-for-june-11-2010.html?m=1
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Yeah, this is one of those "only in a Disney bubble" is this some massive scandal.

It's not like they just revealed that Mrs. Bates is dead in a film that has yet to be released.

It went over what's going to be featured in the ride, which is mildly interesting at most to parents reading the article (Oh, good, Little Susie's favorite character is a part of it). It's hardly "spoilers" - this is certainly not the first time we've seen a ride like this. Outside of Disney circles, this is not a big scoop or anything that anyone is going to remember.

This is publicity - having this information is going to stop no one who wants to visit the attraction from visiting, it can only have the opposite effect of getting more folks interested.
 
PhotoDave219

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
Iwerks64 said:
This is an internet message board, not a court of law or the Spanish Inquisition. I have lurked here for many years and followed numerous special interest topics through the Usenet days to now. At the end of the day, everyone needs to make up their own mind what to believe and what not to believe. You'll never get facts, proof, data, sources, citations to fully back up any statement on a message board. Either people don't have them, can't reveal them, or people won't believe them anyway. It becomes far to easy to throw that accusation back at any poster.

For the majority of high level topics being bandied about, most of those direct facts will see never the light here on a message board. Do I think that Disney has fumbled their entry into China? Absolutely based on my experience and what I've seen. Is the relationship unhealthy between TWDC and Shendi, looks like it to me, again based on my experience. Did the additional $800 million not go towards increased attractions at opening day? Sure looks like it. These all seem pretty straightforward. Do I have facts and data to back it up? Nope. Do I need any? Nope.

I believe mr. @WDW1974 has laid the trail of breadcrumbs for people to follow. It's up to each of us individually to decide whether you believe there's something there and choose to think about the trail. If you have dealt with large joint ventures in China, both good and bad, the "leaked" document is not far fetched in the slightest. Would I like to see the original? You bet, but I also respect posters' need for anonymity. The missing $800M, did it go for bribes? Could be, happens all the time in China ( and don't be fooled by China's public crackdown on graft). If it did, did Eiger know? None of us will probably never know. I think it's more likely that it went for cost overruns and rebuilds due to shoddy construction. But again, I doubt we'll ever have irrefutable facts detailing it.

Do I think Gary Snyder's article "Disney CEO fumbles entry to China" was pulled at Disney's request? Yes and I don't believe it had anything to do with Mr. Snyder misrepresenting his credentials. Will we ever see court documents and phone records detailing what went down? No, but HuffPo immediately retracting their statement is telling.

WSJ not touching the potential story on China? There are posters here with direct journalism experience much more than I have. Some of them I know and trust. Is it plausible that there was a quid pro quo? Absolutely. But I'll never know for certain.

I for one think the story is fascinating. There appears to be enough circumstantial evidence to be concerned and make me want to continue following and digging in to the story. As someone who has dealt with international expansion of companies and the difficulties in China, I'm especially interested. As a lifelong fan of Walt Disney and the Disney legacy, I'm all the more fascinated. I'm just enjoying the rational discussion and the potential pieces of information to put together a narrative. The argumentation, I'm not enjoying as much.
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Nobody suspects The Spanish Inquisition!
 
the.dreamfinder

the.dreamfinder

Well-Known Member
Section106 said:
I still don't understand how an alleged disagreement essentially about style could harm a multi-billion dollar business arrangement? Is the Chinese government going to steal billions from TWDC? So what they don't like Iger's style? Big Deal. Money talks....

And if that happens I don't necessarily buy that this would be bad for domestic park investment. Wouldn't TWDC have to try and recoup their lost investments by turning to their other products and properties? I almost want China to kick Disney out so we can have a real national debate about how horrible that government is.
Click to expand...
Shanghai Disney Resort is more than just a resort in the mainland, it's what Burbank believes is their beachhead to China. I know the go to comparison here has been to DLP and HKDl, but the breaking down in the relationship, the potential graft, and lack of "BRAND attachment" speak to Bob Iger's failure to deliver on his touted goal of international expansion in the most important country for it. Bob Iger and his management team fudged up Disney's entry into China. Shanghai Disney Resort was chosen to proceed because Bob couldn't get the CCP to give him a Disney Channel in the Mainland, which would have been much more helpful in getting the Chinese interested in Disney like they are with that sponge who lives in a pinapple under the sea.

Iger and co.'s arrogance in the development of the Resort will make it harder for them to work with Chinese partners for other ventures and put things like that Mainland Disney Channel further out of reach.

Did I mention Wall St. prefers Disney's cable business over the parks?
 
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Milk Crate

Milk Crate

Member
spacemt354 said:
Welcome to the forums.

While I don't agree with all of what Spirit says, and we've even spoken about it in the past, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he's been correct about several things on this site.

To address your previous post, the reason things delve into these types of discussion is because he has along with a fan base, he has a group of members that, whether it be envy or simply disdain for his style of posting, critic and try to besmirch everything he says. They are not looking for the "truth", they are simply here to counter him and call him out.

From the conversations I've had with the OP over the years, albeit brief, he seems like a good guy whether you agree with his positions or not. That being said, it seems like your position on the matter deals less with the topic at hand and more with the person at hand. You took the time to calculate the mean post per day totals but what does that have to do with anything?

There's 965 pages of opinions. It's up to the readers to decide whether to agree with it, or disagree with it, and then move on with their lives.

Nobody is considered a troll if they respectfully don't agree with someone. But where it turns south is when member biases get in the way of the actually topic at hand, on both sides, and then we get pages of nonsense like we have here.

That was reiterating the backbone of my point earlier. If you know what you're getting into (in these Spirited Threads) and you don't like the topic at hand, why waste your time? We should all have better things to do than try to "prove" or "disprove" pieces of info that cannot be proven or disproven from an anonymous online forum member.
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Sorry, on mobile or I'd break up my replies more. First of all, thanks for the welcome. This thread has gotten pretty tense so it's nice to know some low level milk crate can get a welcome.

I've no personal issue with 74. I've been here for quite a while. I've seen his predictions and posts. I've seen discussions devolve and be locked for a decade. Maybe certain initialed posters, for example, aren't here anymore, but there are still certain posters, right here in this very thread, who offer inside info in a realistic and inoffensive manner and don't draw the same ire.

Lastly, everyone knows the only way to deal with a troll is to ignore them. And yet OP here seems to rather enjoy engaging. His prerogative, of course. But it took me a few seconds of my day to calculate his posts per day (again, I realize they are not actually per day) and I think it runs a bit counter to his claims. Of course, his claims are always vague enough to dodge any dissension. And I want to stress again that I don't think the man has been spouting pure BS for ten-ish years. Yet several other posters are privy to info that we the general public are not, they claim. Yet they don't have their own thousand page threads. And don't seem to be sad about that. I'm sure anyone can figure out who I'm talking about (two posters in particular).

In any case. I'm VERY busy. You wouldn't understand. ;)
 
cdd89

cdd89

Well-Known Member
This is crazy. Whether or not you think there's a controversy around China, this is THE topic worth discussing. It literally affects everyone. Without these tidbits - regardless of whether they're accurate - this thread really would be going round in circles.

You may never visit Shanghai, but a whole load of Disney's creative capital is tied up in Shanghai. Disney has put a lot of eggs into this particular basket - arguably more so than any other international park to date. The endeavour is a big risk. A dramatic fall in Disney's stock price resulting from a Shanghai catastrophe would be bad, whether you're a shareholder, a fan or none of the above but somehow depend on the Disney Economy. None of this (surely) is remotely disputed.

I've gone in accepting the suggestions in this thread are unsourced because I'd rather have potential pieces of the jigsaw to fit in to events which can be observed (like the disappearing "Disney CEO Fumbles" article, or the notable absences in China), than nothing at all. The underlying message is that Disney isn't in control, and the observable events fit that narrative.

To an extent, it doesn't matter (to Disney's endgame) whether the information in this thread is accurate or not. What matters is what's reported and what the bottom line is. If Disney's tattered relations with Shanghai officials is kept quiet, and the two sides' willingness for the project to be seen to be a success (a very different thing from wanting it to be a success in and of itself) mean they patch things up at the 11th hour and the park turns in some respectable numbers, none of the ills of the past will matter one iota to Disney.

I'd say that people should ironically care more about Shanghai the less the chance is that they might go there. Again, it seems like an uncontroversial statement that if Disney needs to make a success out of a failure (and nothing short of a monolithic catastrophe would result in this being accepted by Disney as a failure - from a stock perspective almost any amount of money poured in is worth "covering up" failure for as long as possible), that'll be "good" for the Shanghai resort but bad for the US parks under Disney's direct control.
 

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