A Spirited Perfect Ten

zooey

Well-Known Member
How often do you see "It is a theme park / movie / television show / radio / novel / whatever, you're not supposed to think too much. Just turn off your brain and enjoy it."? All as though thinking is some awful, painful, misery inducing experience. This mindset is very powerful in our culture. It's not supposed to be the occasional respite, but the defining characteristic of popular culture.


Why not? Themed entertainment has become a staple in the area of cultural interpretation.


You're assuming those exhibits were owned by Disney and not their sponsors.
Oh I have no issue critiquing, thinking (and overthinking) and analyzing any aspect of contemporary culture. I do it all the time, especially theme parks because that's a great interest of mine. Hence why I'm here talking about them. Most of the time the folks doing the analyzing are doing so from an academic point of view or a passionate point of view and veer to an extreme, and I don't like that. It's okay for things to settle into a grey territory of pros and cons. As always, context is so important.
 

the.dreamfinder

Well-Known Member
While not relevant to the present discussion(s) here, the BBC did a great three part radio story on the state of the film industry; with a particular focus on British film naturally. A useful primer for anyone who wants to gain a better perspective on our film/media business conversations here.
Part 1- Development Hell
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0536932
Part 2- Getting to the Screen
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b053zsn5
Part 3- The Business of Showing
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b054pbwz
 

Phil12

Well-Known Member
You're assuming those exhibits were owned by Disney and not their sponsors.
I'm actually assuming just the opposite. Walt wouldn't have built those exhibits without the sponsors paying the full tab. Those attractions had free admission for the public. Walt made his money from the sponsors. When the money dried up, so did the exhibits. For example, when Kaiser decided to drop sponsorship of Hall of Aluminum Fame in 1960, that space stayed vacant until 1965 when Monsanto added Fashions and Fabrics Through the Ages to join their Hall of Chemistry exhibit. Walt was more than happy to provide advertising venues for most any company with deep enough pockets.
 

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
So... following up on the Crowd Level talk from last week and the ridiculous peak crowds.....

I compared notes with @lentesta and a few others. The data is accurate. It was just that awful/busy a summer.

Now that schools are going back, crowd levels are returning to a much more manageable/survivable/pleasant level....

Edit: For the TL;DR crowd? Crowd pushed up, medium days became super busy. Rate of slow days remained constant with last year.
 
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LithiumBill

Well-Known Member
He's on vacation. Heard from him yesterday. Apparently he's having fun living large as a faux 1%'r.

No truth to the rumor that he's in China, manipulating their currency by shoveling it into big furnaces.

AH, Thank you! I'm glad he's on vacation, and not dealing with the issues he has before!
 

bakntime

Well-Known Member
How often do you see "It is a theme park / movie / television show / radio / novel / whatever, you're not supposed to think too much. Just turn off your brain and enjoy it."? All as though thinking is some awful, painful, misery inducing experience. This mindset is very powerful in our culture. It's not supposed to be the occasional respite, but the defining characteristic of popular culture.
To some degree I lament that today's culture is a culture where I think most people believe "intellectual stuff is boring." However, you have to realize we live in a world where we're constantly bombarded by "reality" in an unprecedented way. The internet and the media are inescapable, more now than at any time in history. And all of it comes at you with mostly the "bad" stuff, like war, turmoil, global crisis, climate change, etc, etc. It's hard to get away from it. So escapism becomes more important now than perhaps it ever was. Which is why I try not to get on people too much for not wanting to be asked to think. Yes, I wish people understood there are different types of "thinking", and that entertainment can make you think in ways that are positive and good, but I don't blame people for not wanting to contemplate their existence or reflect on themselves when they're being entertained. Sometimes you actually need something that's dumbed down. I'm guilty of it.

I'm actually assuming just the opposite. Walt wouldn't have built those exhibits without the sponsors paying the full tab. Those attractions had free admission for the public. Walt made his money from the sponsors. When the money dried up, so did the exhibits. For example, when Kaiser decided to drop sponsorship of Hall of Aluminum Fame in 1960, that space stayed vacant until 1965 when Monsanto added Fashions and Fabrics Through the Ages to join their Hall of Chemistry exhibit. Walt was more than happy to provide advertising venues for most any company with deep enough pockets.

And Carousel of Progress, for example, was one big advert for GE when it was built for the World's Fair. GE was willing to foot the bill for it to be moved into Disneyland and continue sponsorship, or that ride would be long forgotten. Heck, Walt plopped a giant plastic house right next to Sleeping Beauty Castle because Monsanto was willing to pay for the prime real estate. Imagine if today WDW decided to build Google's House of Chrome right next to Cinderella castle.

Sleeping Beauty Castle was originally just going to be a generic fairy tale castle, until it was realized that it was primed for an IP tie-in to help promote the upcoming Sleeping Beauty animated feature.

Nostalgia and the passage of time are great at sugar-coating history. There are very few people around here who were adults when Walt built Disneyland. Most of us were either not born yet or were still children, so we have the disadvantage of not being wise to the contemporary economics of Disneyland in 1955. And most of those who visited the park back then were only children, and are naturally going to remember the place as far less of a commercial endeavor than it really was. Not that Walt wasn't a dreamer, because he was, but he was also a salesman.

I've quoted this article several times, probably at least once in this thread, but it bears repeating again:

http://academic.csuohio.edu/tah/rrr/docs/marling_ch3.pdf
"Walt's dream is a nightmare," wrote one particularly disillusioned member of the fourth estate. "To me [the park] felt like a giant cash register, clicking and clanging, as creatures of Disney magic came tumbling down from their lofty places in my daydreams." Other writers on assignment in the park agreed. To them, Disneyland was just another tourist trap-a bigger, pricier version of the Santa Claus villages and the seedy Storylands cast up by the postwar baby boom and the blandishments of the automobile industry. It was commercial, a roadside money machine, cynically exploiting the innocent dreams of childhood. On his second visit to the complex, a wire service reporter cornered Disney and asked him about his profit margin. Walt was furious. "We have to charge what we do because this Park cost a lot to build and maintain," he barked. "I have no government subsidy."
...
Writing for the Nation, the novelist Julian Halevy took exception to an enterprise that charged admission to visit ersatz
places masquerading as the Wild West or the Amazon Basin. At Disneyland, he argued, "the whole world . . . has been reduced to a sickening blend of cheap commercial formulas packaged to sell."

Disney 1955 and Disney 2015 aren't as different (in a commercial sense) as some people would like to believe. On the contrary, Disney as a whole has done a pretty amazing job of staying relevant in a very different culture (less naive, more skeptical) than Walt had at his disposal in the 50s and 60s. Those were simpler times, and it was a much easier task to convince people that you were making a product solely for the purpose of "spreading magic" ... that it had nothing to do with bottom lines. All you need to do is watch television shows from the 50s and 60s to see how much more sanitized and optimistic society and mainstream entertainment were back then.
 
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Cesar R M

Well-Known Member
So... following up on the Crowd Level talk from last week and the ridiculous peak crowds.....

I compared notes with @lentesta and a few others. The data is accurate. It was just that awful/busy a summer.

Now that schools are going back, crowd levels are returning to a much more manageable/survivable/pleasant level....

Edit: For the TL;DR crowd? Crowd pushed up, medium days became super busy. Rate of slow days remained constant with last year.
you're scaring me man... I wonder if I should have booked to Anaheim instead of Orlando.

but then.. my niece wanted to see Harry Potter as priority.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
Heck, Walt plopped a giant plastic house right next to Sleeping Beauty Castle because Monsanto was willing to pay for the prime real estate. Imagine if today WDW decided to build Google's House of Chrome right next to Cinderella castle.

Thank you, that's one of the best analogies I've seen.

disneyland_monsanto_house3.jpg


The real Walt Disney - Theme Park Owner 1955-1966 would blow the minds of Disney MAGIC! Fans of the 21st century.

As someone who still remembers how Disneyland (and WDW, to a lesser and less-Walt extent) operated and behaved back in the 20th century, it's always fascinating to see some of the younger Disney fans of the 2010's who have created this weird, and wrong, faux history of how Walt did things in his park.
 
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bakntime

Well-Known Member
As someone who still remembers how Disneyland operated and behaved back in the 20th century, it's always fascinating to see some of the much younger Disney fans of the 2010's who have created this weird, and wrong, faux history of how Walt did things in his park.
Exactly. And it's not by any means intended as a slight on Walt Disney the man or the "dreamer." He was a unique man in his time, for certain. It's just that people tend to ignore the commercialism that was, by necessity, part and parcel of the Disneyland park (and the Walt Disney brand) from its inception.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
To some degree I lament that today's culture is a culture where I think most people believe "intellectual stuff is boring." However, you have to realize we live in a world where we're constantly bombarded by "reality" in an unprecedented way. The internet and the media are inescapable, more now than at any time in history. And all of it comes at you with mostly the "bad" stuff, like war, turmoil, global crisis, climate change, etc, etc. It's hard to get away from it. So escapism becomes more important now than perhaps it ever was. Which is why I try not to get on people too much for not wanting to be asked to think. Yes, I wish people understood there are different types of "thinking", and that entertainment can make you think in ways that are positive and good, but I don't blame people for not wanting to contemplate their existence or reflect on themselves when they're being entertained. Sometimes you actually need something that's dumbed down. I'm guilty of it
The whole concept well predates the internet and expanded communications; and the justification has largely been the same as what you say.
 

bakntime

Well-Known Member
The whole concept well predates the internet and expanded communications; and the justification has largely been the same as what you say.
The concept might, but it's not nearly to the degree it is today. 2015 is worse than ever for media/information/technology overload. If you don't understand/believe that, you weren't around in the 80s/90s.

I think there's a greater need than ever to turn your brain away from the noise. I believe that people, today more than ever, go to WDW because they want fantasy and wild tales, not lectures.

Not that there isn't a balance that can be struck, but it's hard, especially when Harry Potter is a smashing success down the street. It's probably hard to justify "intellectual" entertainment to an investor in light of things like that.
 
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zooey

Well-Known Member
Exactly. And it's not by any means intended as a slight on Walt Disney the man or the "dreamer." He was a unique man in his time, for certain. It's just that people tend to ignore the commercialism that was, by necessity, part and parcel of the Disneyland park (and the Walt Disney brand) from its inception.
It s all advertisement but it's a unique and entertaining way to be advertised to. In that regard I have no issue with it. The way it is now and was. Call me a capitalist. :)
 

bakntime

Well-Known Member
It s all advertisement but it's a unique and entertaining way to be advertised to. In that regard I have no issue with it. The way it is now and was. Call me a capitalist. :)
Considering that Disneyland would never have been built if not for the capitalist/corporate climate in America, I agree.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
The concept might, but it's not nearly to the degree it is today. 2015 is worse than ever for media/information/technology overload. If you don't understand/believe that, you weren't around in the 80s/90s.

I think there's a greater need than ever to turn your brain away from the noise. I believe that people, today more than ever, go to WDW because they want fantasy and wild tales, not lectures.

Not that there isn't a balance that can be struck, but it's hard, especially when Harry Potter is a smashing success down the street. It's probably hard to justify "intellectual" entertainment to an investor in light of things like that.
Again, you're not saying anything new. The overload of the 90s was worse than the 80s. The overload of the 1890s worse than the 1880s. The notion is also beyond an occasional respite, it is a notion regarding the entirety of popular culture.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
Thank you, that's one of the best analogies I've seen.

disneyland_monsanto_house3.jpg


The real Walt Disney - Theme Park Owner 1955-1966 would blow the minds of Disney MAGIC! Fans of the 21st century.

As someone who still remembers how Disneyland (and WDW, to a lesser and less-Walt extent) operated and behaved back in the 20th century, it's always fascinating to see some of the younger Disney fans of the 2010's who have created this weird, and wrong, faux history of how Walt did things in his park.

Monsanto house was before my time yet it was an engineering marvel and was written up in many engineering journals, They had to saw it apart as the wrecking ball bounced off the structure, These would have been great in hurricane prone areas wind, mold and rot resistant.

This of course was when Monsanto was an ordinary industrial chemical company, Well before their transition to evil by patenting genomes and suing everyone when their crops were contaminated with Monsanto's 'patented' genes borne by bees and the wind.
 

jakeman

Well-Known Member
I think the issue with the potential trajectory of the PBS special is its hypothesis seems to be too narrow in focus and lacking context. It appears that it is going to lay the whitewashing of American history and it's subsequent distraction of current events solely at the feet of Disney whilst ignoring the context of the larger picture.

Perhaps more than lip service to the larger picture will be given and the argument will still be sound after that but knowing how "documentaries" today present information, I'm not optimistic.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
I keep going back to the inclusiveness of all guests at Disneyland negating her point. She's interpreting the exclusion of racial issues from the eras of the lands as white washing, but because everyone was welcome at Disneyland, I see the park as showing the ideal view of these places and times where there is no prejudice. if Main Street Is a representation of a small town circa 1900 and there isn't an ounce of segregation or class divide to be found, then it's showing that as the ideal, not the reality. That's a powerful thing to show people. What she sees as regressive I see as progressive... For its time.

Exactly EVERYONE was welcome in Disneyland including minorities when in the larger society this was not true, Recall the Watts race riots happened not far from Disneyland so the general area at the time was NOT minority friendly.

I really tire of academics wanting to make EVERYTHING a didactic about some social issue, If you want to see racism like you have never seen it visit china or japan. where you are either a gwai or gaijin. If you happen to be black it's even worse, what the term is and it's meaning is left as a research exercise for the reader (hint don't do it at work).
 

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