A Spirited Dirty Dozen ...

SorcererMC

Well-Known Member
Sigh. If you miss just a few days on this forum it takes like a years worth of reading to get caught up on everything. It's like totally impossible for me to get caught up on everything, lol. I didn't see this news anywhere so instead of starting new threads, I will just put this here.

Okay so, for the second time this month Disney has been forced to remove something online that offended thousands of people.

vh6n94.jpg


The first being entire state of Louisiana and gumbo lovers around the world with Tiana's Healthy Gumbo recipe -- the kale and quinoa substitute just set people off and it went viral. LOL. http://money.cnn.com/2016/09/14/news/disney-takes-down-gumbo-recipe/



People were so ticked off by Disney's gumbo that it went all the way to Congress. https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/stop-disney-ruining-gumbo

The second thing that Disney had to take down and remove was a 'Moana' costume sadly dubbed as 'polyface'.

1toml2.jpg


14vicuv.png


Disney issued a statement on the issue:

"The team behind Moana has taken great care to respect the cultures of the Pacific Islands that inspired the film, and we regret that the Maui costume has offended some," the company said in a statement. "We sincerely apologize and are pulling the costume from our website and stores."

What can happen will happen but what truly matters is how an individual or organization chooses to respond. I think Disney handled both incidents very well with grace and sensitivity. And, it doesn't hurt for a business to be relevant and stay in the headlines.


I will only comment by saying that I take back all of my previous statements which wrongly attributed Disney having any sophisticated knowledge of global marketing strategy (I clearly overestimated it/ made assumptions about them knowing the basics). I will agree that they handled it as well as can be expected, and with grace and sensitivity as you/Siren stated.
 
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lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I just finished reading a biography of Victor Gruen, the man who essentially created the American shopping mall and whose book The Heart of Our Cities was in Walt's office collection when he passed away (huge influence on Walt's ideas for EPCOT). What's funny about this concept is that such a concept would have driven Gruen crazy, as he wanted malls to act as community gathering spaces, emulating open squares and boulevards in European cities like Vienna, which he had grown up in...yet Gruen was constantly coming up with ideas to attract and allure shoppers which, taken to its logical extreme, would mean less people using amenities like open courtyards and benches and what have you to relax. A guy caught between utopian urbanism and the simple demands of capitalism, and he never seemed to fully figure it out.
Gruen is definitely a guy who gets a lot of undeserved crap heaped upon him for the poor work of others. It was never Gruen who came up with removing amenities or nonsense like the misnamed 'Gruen transfer.' Nor were James Rouse's (quoted in the EPCOT Film calling Disneyland the greatest contemporary example of urban design) Festival Marketplaces (Faneuil Hall, South Street Seaport, Underground Atlanta) fully in-line with his conception of the mall-as-downtown as a means of renewal, a situation which further degraded with time. Lifestyle Centers understand the value of his placemaking concepts and it is why they reintroduced such elements and their operators/developers will more sincerely speak of creating community spaces.
 

brb1006

Well-Known Member
Sigh. If you miss just a few days on this forum it takes like a years worth of reading to get caught up on everything. It's like totally impossible for me to get caught up on everything, lol. I didn't see this news anywhere so instead of starting new threads, I will just put this here.

Okay so, for the second time this month Disney has been forced to remove something online that offended thousands of people.

vh6n94.jpg


The first being entire state of Louisiana and gumbo lovers around the world with Tiana's Healthy Gumbo recipe -- the kale and quinoa substitute just set people off and it went viral. LOL. http://money.cnn.com/2016/09/14/news/disney-takes-down-gumbo-recipe/



People were so ticked off by Disney's gumbo that it went all the way to Congress. https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/stop-disney-ruining-gumbo

The second thing that Disney had to take down and remove was a 'Moana' costume sadly dubbed as 'polyface'.

1toml2.jpg


14vicuv.png


Disney issued a statement on the issue:

"The team behind Moana has taken great care to respect the cultures of the Pacific Islands that inspired the film, and we regret that the Maui costume has offended some," the company said in a statement. "We sincerely apologize and are pulling the costume from our website and stores."

What can happen will happen but what truly matters is how an individual or organization chooses to respond. I think Disney handled both incidents very well with grace and sensitivity. And, it doesn't hurt for a business to be relevant and stay in the headlines.

How is the costume offensive?
 

SorcererMC

Well-Known Member
How is the costume offensive?

I'm not sure I want to answer this (as I don't want to open a can of worms), but I think I can. From the reports I've seen (including the Washington Post) - it is considered offensive b/c the costume is of the tattooed skin with darker pigmentation of the god Maui (played by Dwayne 'The Rock' Johnson). The criticism seems to be from individuals of Polynesian heritage (and I've seen arguments both for/against). I haven't seen the film of course, and my knowledge of Polynesian culture is limited, but I think that one reason may be that tattoos in a general cultural context are given as part of a rite of passage or sacred ritual and signifies the individuals' membership in the group, ie communal recognition, belonging, and acceptance, or given for an individual's accomplishments. Therefore, any one individual does not have the right to 'put it on', or borrow it; nor the skin color of another group.

Some interesting info here:
http://www.polynesia.com/polynesian_culture/samoa/samoan-tattoos.html#.V-P112YVDIU
 

the.dreamfinder

Well-Known Member
I can't tell if you are being serious or not, but there is no way in the world that Rogue One is doing that poorly. If it does, a lot of head are gonna roll. There's a huge gap between "not matching The Force Awakens" and a terrible performance like $500M WW. Iger is trying to (correctly) temper any unreasonable expectations that Rogue One is going to come close to TFA.

If critic reviews and world of mouth are poor, I could see Rogue One doing only maybe $650-700M. But that's really a floor. Even just an "okay" film and this should get to $850-900M WW without much trouble and a billion and even being the highest grossing film of the year could easily happen if it is well received. It can do all that and not come anywhere close to TFA.

FWIW, China is nice and all but it's not everything. Suicide Squad has managed to get to over $720M worldwide despite horrid reviews and not even being released in China. And who knows how Rogue One will do there -- it might actually get a bump due to the presence of Donnie Yen (whom I've heard is very popular in China as an actor).
I am serious. But before I get into why I chose $500 million, some comps.

Ant-Man 2015 $519 WW ($180 US/$339 Intl)
Guardians of the Galaxy 2014 $773 WW ($333 US/$440 Intl)
Suicide Squad 2016 $720 WW ($314 US/$406 Intl)
Godzilla 2014 $529 WW ($200 US/$328 Intl)

Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol 2011
$694 WW ($209 US/$485 Intl)
Big Hero Six 2014 $657 WW ($222 US/$435 Intl)

So we have a mix of films with which to predict Rogue One's potential against. Four of the films are the first entries in a series connected to a larger franchise similar to how R1 is the first Star Wars Anthology film. They all performed well for their respective studios, with SS and GotG performing quite well thanks to strong hype that had follow through. However, $700 million shouldn't be the marker to judge R1's success because those films are at the higher end of successful first entry branded films. Both films also had outsized success thanks to weak competition before and after their release weekends which drove demand. Ant-Man and Godzilla 2014 are where Disney/Lucasfilm should set the expectations for R1. Both were well received entries in their respective franchises which both have sequels in development. Ant-Man in particular is a good comp for R1 because they both came after their franchises' respective marquis entries. Half a billion, even if the film doesn't recoup all its costs in theatrical, is on a good path for future revenue streams like Home Entertainment and Moychendising.

The second set of films came out during the holiday season; Opening around Thanksgiving to around Christmas. R1 will be one of the biggest films this holday season, but its release won't benefit from being considered a cultural event in the way TFA was. That, even if we were to discount China which is necessary with SW, will ultimately be what sets the worldwide gross. R1 will be one of the big Hollywood tentpoles coming out during the holidays as theaters around the world have to determine how many booking they should schedule for the concentration of films that open within a 10 period. Therefore, Ghost Protocol and Big Hero 6's success represents the ceiling for R1's worldwide gross, but...

Then there's the China problem...
China Grosses
Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol $101 China ($694 WW)
Godzilla 2014 $77 China ($529 WW)
Guardians of the Galaxy $96 China ($773 WW)
Big Hero Six $83 China ($657 WW)
Avengers: Age of Ultron $240 China ($1,405 WW)
Ant-Man $105 China ($519 WW)
The Force Awakens $124 China ($2,068 WW)
Zootopia $235 China ($1,023 WW)
SS aside, the importance of China in the international film market place cannot be understated. As far as I am concerned, TWDC should realize that the MCU is China's Star Wars and accept these new Star Wars films may not do as well as their other brands do over there. Disney has every reason to try to make Star Wars more popular in China, but the Chinese are not stupid and they can smell China pandering a mile away. (See Iron Man 3 China edition) Donnie Yen can't save a film from disinterest on the part of Chinese audiences. But in terms of a specific prediction for Rogue One, Ant Man again provides a good indication for its performance. Ant Man made less than half of what Ultron did, so it's reasonable a similar drop will occur with TFA and R1. ($50-60)

"It's Still Maui Time!" or Canabalism
Last Fall, The Good Dinosaur became Pixar's first financial failure at the box office. While TWDS typically gives its tentpoles promotional breathing room so each one can recieve the maximum amount of possible attention from the moviegoing public, The Force Awakens sucked all the oxygen out from The Good Dinosuar. Nobody didn't not know a new Star Wars movie was coming out, but many folks didn't know a Pixar movie would be in theaters on Thanksgiving. Why keep carpet bombing the public with Star Wars ads when it would be financially prudent to invest in increasing public awareness/interest in the film that clearly could use those resources? As Disney has wratcheted up its branded tent pole strategy, these films can be too close to each other leading to one or more films to underperform or bomb. For example, this past Summer saw TWDS release 4 tent pole pictures, Civil War, Alice 2, Dory, and The BFG, in a two month period. It was decided that Cap and Dory would get the lion's share of the attention resources because they were seen as more important while the other two were essentially allowed to fail. (Political/critical concerns also played a role) This fall, Disney will release three major tentpoles within 43 days of each other during the most crowded season of the theatrical calendar. Not a single one of these films can't afford to fail in the ways Good Dinosaur, Alice, and BFG did and won't. However, that doesn't mean they wont eat into each other's grosses. The audience might give Moana a cultural moment much like Frozen had over its theatrical release and Rogue One will have to perform against that in a way tentpoles released in the spring, like Zootopia or Jungle Book, don't have to.

To wrap up, Bob is doing the right thing by correcting financial expectations for Rogue One, but the number by which it should be deemed a success, and its likely performance, should be in the $500-$600 million range. Rogue One is going against strong headwinds including historical comps for first entry/holiday films which rule out a worldwide gross higher than the low $700 million range at best, the lack of strong interest from Chinese audiences, and Disney having to balance three large tentpoles during a crowded holiday season.

Addendum:
Strong performance in Europe could help make up the difference for the poor performance in China, but by how much is an open question.
Don't underestimate the difficulty for Disney in selling a Star Wars film that isn't part of the main series.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
Gruen is definitely a guy who gets a lot of undeserved crap heaped upon him for the poor work of others. It was never Gruen who came up with removing amenities or nonsense like the misnamed 'Gruen transfer.' Nor were James Rouse's (quoted in the EPCOT Film calling Disneyland the greatest contemporary example of urban design) Festival Marketplaces (Faneuil Hall, South Street Seaport, Underground Atlanta) fully in-line with his conception of the mall-as-downtown as a means of renewal, a situation which further degraded with time. Lifestyle Centers understand the value of his placemaking concepts and it is why they reintroduced such elements and their operators/developers will more sincerely speak of creating community spaces.

Being personally familiar with the Faneuil Hall, At one time it had great atmospherics and entertainment year round and it was a HUGE success and it had a mix of small local shops along with some national chains.

Over the years as usual the 'Business Types' got in and ruined it by removing the local shops and replacing them all with national chains now it's just another sad mall with empty storefronts - GGP basically did not want to deal with the local shops they just wanted the 'Big Check' from the national chains and so they would rather have empty stores than deal with the management overhead of supporting local business.

Just the usual story of having an out of touch management team who has never been on the front line of the industry they are supposedly managing.
 

the.dreamfinder

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure I want to answer this (as I don't want to open a can of worms), but I think I can. From the reports I've seen (including the Washington Post) - it is considered offensive b/c the costume is of the tattooed skin with darker pigmentation of the god Maui (played by Dwayne 'The Rock' Johnson). The criticism seems to be from individuals of Polynesian heritage (and I've seen arguments both for/against). I haven't seen the film of course, and my knowledge of Polynesian culture is limited, but I think that one reason may be that tattoos in a general cultural context are given as part of a rite of passage or sacred ritual and signifies the individuals' membership in the group, ie communal recognition, belonging, and acceptance, or given for an individual's accomplishments. Therefore, any one individual does not have the right to 'put it on', or borrow it; nor the skin color of another group.

Some interesting info here:
http://www.polynesia.com/polynesian_culture/samoa/samoan-tattoos.html#.V-P112YVDIU
Disney Consumer Products could use some sensitivity readers.
 

rael ramone

Well-Known Member
My Swamp Issues.... (gotta balance out the mostly positive last post)...

Let's start off in Cosmic Rays Feed Station. I've said I can make that burger taste good overflowing with grilled onions & mushrooms & packaged BBQ sauce, and I was able to again. But a couple of things that, while didn't affect me personally, don't look good for the future.

Cheese sauce (that was once part of the fixin bar) is now sold for a dollar. (Don't know what size).
They've added standing tables to the dining area (and they don't match to boot).

I have no interest in the cheese sauce, but what will they try to monetize next?
And is the 'standing table' going to be their go-to solution 'increase capacity' - to try to get guests to eat quicker.... (I really can't see someone eating at one of those tables trying to inhale one of those 1/2 rotisserie chicken dinners).

-------------

Norway hasn't been kicked out of their pavilion yet, but they seem to be sleeping on the couch. As far as the 'new' attraction itself, the new projected faces looked much better then the 7 dwarfs, but I still find it inferior to regular animatronics (which fortunately they used for their new non-human characters). Still wondering what some precious Snowflake will react if the projectors go out and Anna & Elsa look like they've had an encounter with Charlie X. :eek: 'Fastpass' for this is really 'Not As Slow Pass'. But as expected woefully lacking on capacity. But what really jumped out at me is how the ride system itself (with the backwards part) made no narrative sense. As a result I don't think I've experienced a ride more shoehorned into an existing ride system then Frozen Ever After. And later, when I tried to eat a Norwegian QS meal (quite good fishermans plate & troll horn but quite disappointing ham & apple sandwich that was woefully lacking in condiments) I noticed background music from other Disney films like Snow White. Basically, Princess Music.

-------------

Now about the 'new' ride that I was actually looking forward to - which should be called SOSFCQCGI (Soarin Over Sy Fy Channel Quality CGI). It. Looked. So. Fake. Only thing missing was Ian Ziering holding a chainsaw... Right now the best screen attraction at the WDW Resort is Illuminations de France, without question.

--------------

Now for the biggie.

Additional Security Theater! (imagine Stacy saying that in full Stacy mode). It. Got. Old. Real. Quick.

First you have to have everything in your pockets to get through the first wave of ST. Then you have to empty them of anything that might have a hint of metal in them. (Camera batteries, handi wipes with foil containers, etc). And if you only get out 5 of your 6 items, you get to be wanded... Absolutely MAGICal.

Imagine if you were spending over $500 on a Monorail or Crescent Lake resort (I wasn't). A big selling point is supposedly the ability to quickly get in and out of the park (Mornings there, back to the resort in the hot afternoon for pool & nap, then back in the more pleasant evening). Now each time you have to enter the park you've got that hassle to deal with. So instead you stick it out in the park, with more and more crowds along with inconsistent AC, until you've finally had enough and leave for good. And since you're close to heatstroke, you have no appetite for that dinner ADR that you have. You end up going back to the hotel and watching TV....

Remember when they used to give out special Fastpasses at random?....
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
Now about the 'new' ride that I was actually looking forward to - which should be called SOSFCQCGI (Soarin Over Sy Fy Channel Quality CGI). It. Looked. So. Fake. Only thing missing was Ian Ziering holding a chainsaw... Right now the best screen attraction at the WDW Resort is Illuminations de France, without question.
I'd say Star Tours is the best but I agree with the rest of your post.
 

rael ramone

Well-Known Member
One other observation.

The alligator/snake signs were all over the place along anywhere there was paths or roads near water (and also in the CENTER of Tom Sawyer Island). And people were talking about them, taking pictures, etc...

I overheard one parent tell their kid 'If you don't behave Tic Tock Croc will bite you'. (At a bus stop, but still...)
 

RoysCabin

Well-Known Member
I've never seen these days as being "overly sensitive"; rather, I think the advent of the social media age has given a voice to people who have traditionally been stuck in the margins of society or neglected by the majority, and as platforms like Twitter don't discriminate in terms of who gets to speak their mind, those folks have taken the opportunity to add their voices to the public discourse with a volume never before made readily available to them.

Saw a pretty good look at the issue on the BBC, written by someone of Pacific descent. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37430268
 

Rodan75

Well-Known Member
I am serious. But before I get into why I chose $500 million, some comps.

Ant-Man 2015 $519 WW ($180 US/$339 Intl)
Guardians of the Galaxy 2014 $773 WW ($333 US/$440 Intl)
Suicide Squad 2016 $720 WW ($314 US/$406 Intl)
Godzilla 2014 $529 WW ($200 US/$328 Intl)

Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol 2011
$694 WW ($209 US/$485 Intl)
Big Hero Six 2014 $657 WW ($222 US/$435 Intl)

So we have a mix of films with which to predict Rogue One's potential against. Four of the films are the first entries in a series connected to a larger franchise similar to how R1 is the first Star Wars Anthology film. They all performed well for their respective studios, with SS and GotG performing quite well thanks to strong hype that had follow through. However, $700 million shouldn't be the marker to judge R1's success because those films are at the higher end of successful first entry branded films. Both films also had outsized success thanks to weak competition before and after their release weekends which drove demand. Ant-Man and Godzilla 2014 are where Disney/Lucasfilm should set the expectations for R1. Both were well received entries in their respective franchises which both have sequels in development. Ant-Man in particular is a good comp for R1 because they both came after their franchises' respective marquis entries. Half a billion, even if the film doesn't recoup all its costs in theatrical, is on a good path for future revenue streams like Home Entertainment and Moychendising.

The second set of films came out during the holiday season; Opening around Thanksgiving to around Christmas. R1 will be one of the biggest films this holday season, but its release won't benefit from being considered a cultural event in the way TFA was. That, even if we were to discount China which is necessary with SW, will ultimately be what sets the worldwide gross. R1 will be one of the big Hollywood tentpoles coming out during the holidays as theaters around the world have to determine how many booking they should schedule for the concentration of films that open within a 10 period. Therefore, Ghost Protocol and Big Hero 6's success represents the ceiling for R1's worldwide gross, but...

Then there's the China problem...
China Grosses
Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol $101 China ($694 WW)
Godzilla 2014 $77 China ($529 WW)
Guardians of the Galaxy $96 China ($773 WW)
Big Hero Six $83 China ($657 WW)
Avengers: Age of Ultron $240 China ($1,405 WW)
Ant-Man $105 China ($519 WW)
The Force Awakens $124 China ($2,068 WW)
Zootopia $235 China ($1,023 WW)
SS aside, the importance of China in the international film market place cannot be understated. As far as I am concerned, TWDC should realize that the MCU is China's Star Wars and accept these new Star Wars films may not do as well as their other brands do over there. Disney has every reason to try to make Star Wars more popular in China, but the Chinese are not stupid and they can smell China pandering a mile away. (See Iron Man 3 China edition) Donnie Yen can't save a film from disinterest on the part of Chinese audiences. But in terms of a specific prediction for Rogue One, Ant Man again provides a good indication for its performance. Ant Man made less than half of what Ultron did, so it's reasonable a similar drop will occur with TFA and R1. ($50-60)

"It's Still Maui Time!" or Canabalism
Last Fall, The Good Dinosaur became Pixar's first financial failure at the box office. While TWDS typically gives its tentpoles promotional breathing room so each one can recieve the maximum amount of possible attention from the moviegoing public, The Force Awakens sucked all the oxygen out from The Good Dinosuar. Nobody didn't not know a new Star Wars movie was coming out, but many folks didn't know a Pixar movie would be in theaters on Thanksgiving. Why keep carpet bombing the public with Star Wars ads when it would be financially prudent to invest in increasing public awareness/interest in the film that clearly could use those resources? As Disney has wratcheted up its branded tent pole strategy, these films can be too close to each other leading to one or more films to underperform or bomb. For example, this past Summer saw TWDS release 4 tent pole pictures, Civil War, Alice 2, Dory, and The BFG, in a two month period. It was decided that Cap and Dory would get the lion's share of the attention resources because they were seen as more important while the other two were essentially allowed to fail. (Political/critical concerns also played a role) This fall, Disney will release three major tentpoles within 43 days of each other during the most crowded season of the theatrical calendar. Not a single one of these films can't afford to fail in the ways Good Dinosaur, Alice, and BFG did and won't. However, that doesn't mean they wont eat into each other's grosses. The audience might give Moana a cultural moment much like Frozen had over its theatrical release and Rogue One will have to perform against that in a way tentpoles released in the spring, like Zootopia or Jungle Book, don't have to.

To wrap up, Bob is doing the right thing by correcting financial expectations for Rogue One, but the number by which it should be deemed a success, and its likely performance, should be in the $500-$600 million range. Rogue One is going against strong headwinds including historical comps for first entry/holiday films which rule out a worldwide gross higher than the low $700 million range at best, the lack of strong interest from Chinese audiences, and Disney having to balance three large tentpoles during a crowded holiday season.

Addendum:
Strong performance in Europe could help make up the difference for the poor performance in China, but by how much is an open question.
Don't underestimate the difficulty for Disney in selling a Star Wars film that isn't part of the main series.

Wow...that was a fair bit of research. I think you are right that it would be called a success at anything WW over $500M, however, I have to imagine that internal projections for Rogue One want it to hit closer to $750M to show that the brand is in line with films like Suicide Squad and Deadpool, which didn't get China releases.

I think Doc Strange will land around the Ant-Man total and I imagine there is pressure for Moana to better that $750M mark as well.

BTW - I think Jungle Book was hurt a little by Cap's release, Jungle Book could have used another $20M weekend before Cap came out.
 

Cesar R M

Well-Known Member
Sigh. If you miss just a few days on this forum it takes like a years worth of reading to get caught up on everything. It's like totally impossible for me to get caught up on everything, lol. I didn't see this news anywhere so instead of starting new threads, I will just put this here.

Okay so, for the second time this month Disney has been forced to remove something online that offended thousands of people.

vh6n94.jpg


The first being entire state of Louisiana and gumbo lovers around the world with Tiana's Healthy Gumbo recipe -- the kale and quinoa substitute just set people off and it went viral. LOL. http://money.cnn.com/2016/09/14/news/disney-takes-down-gumbo-recipe/



People were so ticked off by Disney's gumbo that it went all the way to Congress. https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/stop-disney-ruining-gumbo

The second thing that Disney had to take down and remove was a 'Moana' costume sadly dubbed as 'polyface'.

1toml2.jpg


14vicuv.png


Disney issued a statement on the issue:

"The team behind Moana has taken great care to respect the cultures of the Pacific Islands that inspired the film, and we regret that the Maui costume has offended some," the company said in a statement. "We sincerely apologize and are pulling the costume from our website and stores."

What can happen will happen but what truly matters is how an individual or organization chooses to respond. I think Disney handled both incidents very well with grace and sensitivity. And, it doesn't hurt for a business to be relevant and stay in the headlines.

Thats a first. Disney is used to delete every single bad comment.
I guess this time the uproar was so huge (and it didnt really affect their wall street earnings) that they decided to go with the flow :p
 

SorcererMC

Well-Known Member
Could be that the tattoos displayed appear to be of Maori origin which is indigenous of New Zealand and not Polynesia. If the offended are to be consistent, they should also protest the pre match war dance of the All Blacks.
The tattoos could very well be Maori, since the Moana story was written by New Zealand Maori film-maker Taika Waititi. It looks like that has been publicized on New Zealand and Australian sites but not so much here in the US (? at least, I didn't know or forgot that about the screenplay. I like knowing the fact behind the fiction/ story/ myth and its origin).

the advent of the social media age
Right. The complaints didn't happen in a vacuum, it's getting picked up by major new outlets, amplifying it. Also, thanks for that BBC link it was a good read.
 

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