A Spirited Dirty Dozen ...

[thehowiet]

An interesting take on SDL from two theme park designers who visited during trial ops:

http://micechat.com/127863-shanghai-disneyland-theme-park-designer-look/

Definitely an interesting take, and reiterates a few of the points @lazyboy97o made with regard to Tomorrowland and the visual intrusion of Disney Town from within the land. That one is a real head scratcher. I'm also a little perplexed that they built, not only a train station at the front of the park, but at least one shop that pretends to be a train station as well.

Why even include those train related items if they felt it wasn't appropriate to incorporate a railroad into the design of the park? Just seems a bit bizarre. There appears to be a lack of kineticism in general within the park. Any idea if that will change?

 

[BrianLo]

Sorry, my internet is trash and the multi quote feature just went belly up.

Yes @brb1006 I saw the parade, rather liked it. Solid offering, but hope it is expanded. More acrobatics from some of the dancers than I think I've seen before.

I'll get back to whomever was asking about Roaring Rapids. It and stunt show I'll do Saturday. At a certain point the crowds picked up (not awfully) but I transitioned to just walking around and exploring.

@WDW1974 - sorry, meant big three Fastpassable attractions. Should have been more clear. Obviously PoTC is THE attraction but it doesn't have or need FP. All the other attractions seemingly can be easily handled with a smart touring strategy and even still didn't really seem to generate disgusting wait times. Also I'm staying off property, closer to the city center. The snowflake/cupcakes need to stay on property as I think they would hate actual Shanghai. I know the fanboys are rushing here for something 'new', but if people can't handle a visit to Tokyo I don't know why are earth they are showing up to China.

I don't want to commit to thoughts too prematurely because I want to do more exploring and let it settle a bit. Probably I'll piecemeal them some more until Sunday as my second day is Saturday. I think the bones of a good park are there. I think it is coming together a bit better than trial visits once everything was actually running. It's big, huge actually. The West side has the issues with glaring holes in attractions. If Toy Story and Marvel/Alice/Everest come in the next 3-5 years and go where I'm assuming they will I think that will fix a bit of the Swiss cheese feel.

I don't personally mind that it's different. I wanted different. I dislike the MiceAge article that I can summarize as where is X, Y, Z from Disneyland. I hate that mentality, it's so freaking boring to expect a clone of Disneyland. It was a garbage idea for Hong Kong and it will never live up to the original as a result. I'm glad they did something bold and wildly different even if some areas are questionable, some are definitely new and exciting. It is NOT a charming park, like HKDL is though, as a result. That I can agree with. BUT, Treasure Cove and Adventure Isle are crowing achievements and prop up the behemoth. They are Disneysea level lands (in some instances better than the batting average of the Disney Sea lands).

Organizationally the day was impressive. It seemed like every other CM had a suit with them and they were also about enjoying the park. Tons of Chinese families with young girls in princess dresses and boys in Marvel fare. It is early days though so we'll not the best slice of general public. People were generally polite and organized *for china* and CMs were truly no nonsense to the locals (which I think is good). They were quite nice to foreigners.

I expected a nightmare and it was probably a better than average day I've had at the parks in terms of navigating crowds. Thus some commentary will be a bit more influenced towards positive I'll admit.

That's enough for now!

 

[Mike S]

Some Opening Day SDL coverage to digest:

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/ride-719362-shanghai-soaring.html

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/disney-719505-first-guests.html

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-shanghai-disney-opens-20160615-snap-story.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/17/business/international/disney-shanghai-opens.html?_r=0

20 minute wait for Pirates? Seems no one likes it...

Or...

It's a high capacity ride with no FastPass doing its job

 

[brb1006]

Apparently once Disneyland Forever ends its run it will be replaced with Fantasy In The Sky.

 

[Rteetz]

20 minute wait for Pirates? Seems no one likes it...

Or...

It's a high capacity ride with no FastPass doing its job

I saw a few people say that they had fastpasses for rides with 5 minute waits.

 

[BrerJon]

One thing quite hilarious is time after time in the past Disney has blustered into a new country without any knowledge of local customs, expecting every new country will want American things, and got burnt.

This time they didn't do that, made sure everything was 'distinctly Chinese', yet now it's open they're finding what's selling out, what is it the Chinese really want? Turkey legs and hot dogs, and Americana.

 

[BrianLo]

A few things I did not know! They aren't hugely crazy but I'll spoiler tag anyways.

Spoiler

-The Barbarosa's Bounty quick serve looks into the ride reminiscent of Blue Bayou.
-Camp Discovery is HUGE. I'm looking forward to the rope course which is absolutely extensive. There is also an equally massive walking path which is probably a good 750 meters meandering all through the mountain to explore.
-There are a few more waterfalls than just the main one.
-That TRON preshow-esque screen that changes from opaque to a view of the ride is amazingly executed and probably one of the biggest "wows". It's an effect I've never really send before. I had to force the line to wait (they basically wanted me to force open the automatic door and didn't understand why we were stopping). It got a great reaction though when it happened.
-Buzz is on the ground level... I know stupid... but I always thought it was on the top floor in my minds eye.
-The ponds out in front of tomorrowland are going for more mixed patches of tall grasses than flowers. Sections are going to be more reminiscent of the movie when she first plops into the field.
-I didn't know the Alice maze had an cave 'show scene'.
-The castle interior is still somewhat an open air thoroughfare.

Can people rhyme off a few of the best quick-serves for me around the world? I'm having a hard time coming up with them off the top of my head. The East side quick serves are stellar...

I know @WDW1974 has commented a bunch on the lack of table service spots, but it's not really noticeable when you have really top designed quick serves.

I saw a few people say that they had fastpasses for rides with 5 minute waits.

All the fantasyland rides were 5 minutes for the first couple hours and the most FP are back there. I unintentionally did SDMT as my first ride of the day as PoTC wasn't yet operating (around like 11:40 something). I couldn't help but think of the mommy bloggers as I was leaving the area that Pan and SDMT were still 5 minute waits. I'm sure their heads would have exploded that I was riding a half-empty train and had the boat to myself on Pan.

Wait times did go up, but Fantasyland is a long walk to get to and with the media setup in the hub you had to walk by a heck of a lot of shiny new things to get to it. Does not surprise me crowds take a while to get back there.

 

[BrianLo]

I don't understand why Shanghai is getting so much coverage in the USA, and so much promotion, when they pretend that Tokyo doesn't exist, same for Hong Kong for that matter. Has anyone ever even mentioned DisneySea in American media, I wonder?

Most Americans probably have no idea there is a Tokyo Disneyland, but they haven't been able to miss the news about Shanghai.

Simple. It's all about ownership and performance. They don't have the same vested business interest in Tokyo and HK/Paris continue to be financial blemishes.

This is it for the international Disney Parks business. It's either Third times the Charm or their 3rd strike.

If Shanghai is successful, you'll never hear the end of it. If it flounders for the next several years it's going to be swept under the rug like their other failed international ventures.

Bob wants his parks legacy to be the CEO to finally get the International parks to make money. Will it happen? I think everyone has already registered their votes on that a long time ago. To say everything rides on Shanghai is not an understatement.

 

[BrianLo]

One more tiny anecdote. The number of times I've basically been asked if I'm doing HKDL and Tokyo before or after SDL and in what order. Then I proceed to say I'm just staying in China. You'd think I have two heads by the looks I receive.

I always proceed to say that would be way too
much Disney and enjoy the reaction.

 

[brb1006]

Was Ignite The Dream showing at night? Also how many characters were out that day besides Mickey?

 

[ford91exploder]

I just found the story in the wrap. Holy crap....

I know most of us were opposed to the bungalows being built in the first place.... But even I didn't anticipate guests feeding the alligators.

I'm not even from Florida and I know feeding wildlife is a recipe for disaster, Of course up here it's now Bear problem season. Black bears not a problem they eat berries,honey,grubs and roots and are shy, Brown bears well they eat ANYTHING and are aggressive to boot

 

[lazyboy97o]

Since similar questions have been asked of me, I am going to copy my long post regarding the organization of Shanghai Disneyland that I just posted in the thread I started on Shanghai Disneyland.

---

When I say that Tomorrowland is a disorganized mess, I am not referring to the aesthetics or attraction line up. Spatial organization is about how spaces are created, how program elements are situated and how people move about the space. Tomorrowland ignores six decades of good theme park design, but that should not be shocking given its lead (whose Mark VII project started with telling Bob Gurr to pound sand and ended with a monorail fleet one short that did not fit on the beam way and had no ventilation). Since I have made similar comments and been asked to expand on them elsewhere I am going to take the long way around to answering this question so that I can repost it where appropriate.

In the design of architectural spaces there are two primary concepts relating to how objects (most typically walls) shape space: space making objects and objects in space. The classic example of space making objects are old city squares or typical urban streets. They are well defined in the boundaries and image by their surroundings. An object in space would be something like a barn sitting in a field, the expanse is what really defines that place. Theme parks are very much built around the definition of space, space is where theme is expressed and the experience of a theme park is one of moving through a carefully choreographed series of spaces that create an emotional resonance.

In order to handle crowds Disney's strategy has typically been to expand the space. At the EPCOT Center this worked because Disney rather fully embraced the notion of an object in space. Each pavilion is a discrete entity and the intended focus of one's experience. Walking through Future World or around World Showcase is intentionally a secondary experience. The space works to define the separation. Even if World Showcase was built out each pavilion would still surround the large walkway and massive lagoon, and entering this large space would still occur in between the experience of each pavilion.

At Tokyo Disneyland, trying to fit the larger spaces into the traditional Disneyland framework has created a degree of awkwardness. There are large corridors that plow through the park and the experience is somewhat disconnected. This disconnect is most notable with Westernland where there are just too many conflicting notions of scale that still don't quite work well even when the expanse of the frontier would be a desirable experience. Potentially learning from their weirdness, the Euro Disneyland project properly rethought crowd management by introducing more variety to the means of moving about the park. The most famous example of this is the arcades which flank Main Street, USA but how many people realize that Liberty Arcade is part of a larger series of covered walkways which extend into Frontierland proper?

Shanghai Disneyland takes the large walkway strategy of Tokyo Disneyland and turns it up to 11 by trying to combine the World Showcase strategy. This though is a contradiction. A themed land is not a series of discrete experiences but one singular experience. A strong land acts as one and is therefore most suitable to defined space. One moved amongst and along the objects which define the space, which define the theme. The lands of Shanghai Disneyland have no definition. Imagine Main Street, USA as only half of its western side and the rest all being open space. The park throughout lacks definition. Objects sit in relation to little else and are supposed to be connected with other objects that off in the distance (a situation which will only grow worse as the foliage matures). This openness of space is made worse (most notably on Mickey Ave and Fantasyland) by overly reducing the scale of the buildings. Forced perspective (while often cut short to only be such) is not just reducing the heights of upper levels of a building. That is merely a means and it is in fact supposed to be an illusion. Effective forced perspective as traditionally used by Disney creates the illusion of multiple levels without such levels actually being habitable. Throughout Shanghai Disneyland such illusions do not exist. The upper floors are clearly way to be small for their to be occupied space. The result of buildings that are too small in very large spaces is that the non-human scale of both the building and the surrounding space is emphasized.

Finally, we get to the mess that is Tomorrowland. Like the rest of the park it follow the open space and defined edge pattern. It avoids the overly diminutive buildings issue but does't really fix them by lacking any sort of real definition to its scale. The land is the tossed into a blender by introducing the Armchair Imagineer's dream of multiple levels. Multiple levels look cool. They are part of the kinetics of a vibrant city as there is an interplay in the activation of horizontal and vertical space. Multiple levels though are not a big thing in theme parks, even when crowds are a concern, because they jumble the explicit shaping of the guest experience. Notions of push and pull, weenies, etc. all get complicated when there are many ways about and are seemingly tossed aside in Tomorrowland. There is no clear distinct path of travel. There is no clear means of moving about the land. It is a massive plaza and edge which abuts another plaza. There is no hierarchy of forms or places, too much tries to be important and it muddles the whole. There is no clear path that takes one directly through the land. TRON Lightcycle Power Run is best visible and accessed coming from the south (Gardens of Imagination / Mickey Ave) but this is practically a dead end situation. This is the upper level walkway that also access the main dining facility of rate land and the Jet Packs and attraction but it has no real connection the massive plaza below. Yes, there are stairs, but they are not part of the means of travel. This lack of hierarchy is then repeated by the lower level which lacks strong edges to give it definition and must be navigates entirely by signage. The light cycles are not dominate in view when entering and when they do finally asset themselves as the marquee attraction he design suggest an entry far removed while the person and object of desire are so physically close.

On the whole the park has failed at its organization and employed no well designed weenies. Since the edge condition is the dominate defining characteristic there is little to no visual hierarchy as everything sits rather independently. The Princess Sorority House and Roaring Mountain are the two most clearly visible landmarks throughout the park but also fail to act as weenies. There is no clear means of getting to either. The Gardens of Imagination (I guess random stuff tossed together is now considered imaginative) object direct movement towards Enchanted Storybook Castle. Roaring Rapids' entrance is not at all near its mighty peak, but would be passed on the journey if entering from the Gardens of Imagination. Treasure Cove is the only land that really starts to create any sense of defined space and its spectacular E-Ticket attractions turns its back on this peacemaking with the entrance instead located at the edge and facing Fantasyland.

 

[lazyboy97o]

A question for you that can wait for your return (I wouldn't be likely posting much from there if I were in your shoes), but a top 5 things about the resort (can be anything from waffles to Pirates) you enjoyed and a bottom 5 of things you didn't. I think that will open up some fascinating discussion (for at least a handful of us). Have a safe and enjoyable rest of your time.

I am no longer in China and have now also experienced Orlando's two new mehs, Skull Island: Reign of Kong and Mako.

In no particular order, top five:

• Pirates of the Caribbean: Battle for the Sunken Treasure truly is a breathtaking spectacle. From when I saw it the projections were a bit too bright, but it is still amazing.
• The actual coaster ride on TRON Lightcycle Power Run is a lot of fun.
• The central atrium of the Enchanted Storybook Castle is grand.
• Roaring Mountain (is that really its name?) is very impressive along with the view of it from across the water standing in Treasure Cove.
• Seven Dwarfs Mine / mountain actually looks somewhat impressive from a lower angle.

Again, no order, bottom five:

• Gardens of Imagination. What on earth do Fantasia, an American circus, a Princess Sorority House and Fuijan have in common? And why is Fujian so important that it was chosen to be the "distinctly Chinese" sycophancy for this land?
• Very, very poor overall design from people who should know better, see recently posted tome.
• Under built capacity and poor queue design. 120 minute lines should not be spilling far off into the main corridors.
• TRON Lightcycle Power Run queue is absolutely abysmal.
• Very visible back of house, the worst being the back side of Adventure Isle. What is the premium for a back stage, er... park, view at the Shanghai Disneyland Hotel?

Having not seen it but just being generally against the idea, I imagine the Tomorrowland Hotel was a far better concept than the Toy Story Hotel.

 

[wogwog]

"To ensure a safe and enjoyable experience for all theme-park Guests, the use of cell phone extension poles (known as selfie sticks) will not be allowed in Shanghai Disneyland."

This should be fun to try to regulate in China. WDW MK still confiscates several hundred a day even after all this time of the sticks being banned.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

George Lucas was also seen inside Shanghai Disneyland

Has he been to the grand opening of every castle park at this point?

 

[VJ]

I'll expand on what @brb1006 said since it kinda got lost in the Shanghai discussion. Disneyland is rumored to replace Disneyland Forever in September with a lower-budget fireworks spectacular (though the article I read on the site-that-shall-not-be-named didn't name a show in particular). The rumor is attributed to the Shanghai overruns.

 

[Cesar R M]

This article may have been linked here. Either way it's worth a read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/17/business/international/disney-shanghai-opens.html?_r=

I often criticize Bob for sounding boring and emotionless a lot, and rightfully so. But here, I have to give him some credit. I like his comments here.

He pointed out that SDL's Turkey Leg with hoisin sauce are "distinctly Chinese." Never misses a chance. His coment about the Mickey ears also made me laugh, in a good way. I love it!

But this next one is my favorite. In response to seeing a dozen people crouched on the castle floor, he said “This is because we still don’t have enough benches or shade yet. Believe me, that’s getting fixed.” Bravo for pointing out a flaw. Obviously they made some mistakes and I'm glad he's aknowledging that. But geez, about the benches... could you please double the order? 'Cause there's another place that could use some too.

and he cant knowledge the removal of benches at WDW?

 

[Cesar R M]

Anyone here in favor of renaming the park Distinctland?

with a moto of "The Disney Magical Different(tm)"

 

[Cesar R M]

Nice to be back sir. The main takeaway during my limited time at SDL was how much I missed the scale at DL or HKDL. Because everything is so spread out at SDL and because so much of it is bigger, I think it's missing that warm, welcoming feeling from having the buildings and landscaping closer. Tomorrowland is just a mess and feels too industrial. I wish I had time to see Pan because it looks to be the best one out of all the parks.

So, its Disneyland with the walking feel of epcot?

 

[djlaosc]

That's a loaded question. I would have liked to have heard exactly how it was worded. But he sure can't think on his feet to save his life because that wasn't the right way to answer at all.

The funny thing is, I have downloaded the program off on demand to be able to get the wording to post on here, but I can no longer find the Shanghai section in the program... I have contacted the program to ask why it has been removed and will let you know the response I get...