A Spirited 15 Rounds ...

[AEfx]

See, I don't care which side someone falls on. If this whole thing were perpetrated by someone on the alt-left, I would be just as angry that Disney caved.

EDIT: Caved is the wrong word here...I should have said "allowed themselves to be manipulated".

I get that and you do - but I don't believe a lot of people agree. I think there are a lot of people who are angry about who they "caved" to, above all else, and would have reacted much differently had some other group been the ones to spark the flame. Even if they felt the same way about the actions, and expressed feelings of regret, I do not believe they would be actually asking/expecting Disney to reverse themselves.

 

[Princess Leia]

There is that, too. With all due respect to the work he did on the GoG films (and I am aware of how much he is responsible for), in terms of the bigger picture, I think they risk more reversing the decision than just letting this slide away.

I may be totally wrong. They could decide in an hour to announce they are hiring him back. I've learned that with this stuff, you can never say never about anything. But I just don't see how they walk this back - if they had started with an "investigation" or something, or a leave of absence, maybe, like they tried with Lassetter - but he was fired, full stop.

Most of all, because it would undermine all the past and future decisions they make in regards to situations like this.

Didn’t the Weinstein stuff take a few days at least to start resulting in cancelled/postponed projects? That’s the most infamous of the current cases, but it still took time. Disney jumped the gun (pun intended) by firing Gunn. Do I think they planned to probably fire Lasseter as soon as it came out? Kind of- I feel like they wanted to wait and see how public opinion was with the matter. Roseanne? I think that was in the cards as soon as they announced a revival.

To bring it to Urban Meyer (I’m a Buckeye and used to be his neighbor, this situation is very much on my radar right now), OSU did the right thing by putting him on leave. Regardless of whether or not he knew about the 2015 incident (it’s looking like he did), OSU is taking time to investigate the situation, as they should.

 

[AEfx]

Didn’t the Weinstein stuff take a few days at least to start resulting in cancelled/postponed projects? That’s the most infamous of the current cases, but it still took time. Disney jumped the gun (pun intended) by firing Gunn. Do I think they planned to probably fire Lasseter as soon as it came out? Kind of- I feel like they wanted to wait and see how public opinion was with the matter. Roseanne? I think that was in the cards as soon as they announced a revival.

That's just it - I don't think they jumped it quite as quickly as we think they did. I just don't believe that Disney was somehow totally blindsided by this. I do think they were blindsided by the minor backlash, though. Which hopefully will impact their decision making in the future.

 

[Rodan75]

In this case it’s $$$$ as much as creative control.

Plus this would quickly get his overall career back on track.

 

[Rodan75]

I get that and you do - but I don't believe a lot of people agree. I think there are a lot of people who are angry about who they "caved" to, above all else, and would have reacted much differently had some other group been the ones to spark the flame. Even if they felt the same way about the actions, and expressed feelings of regret, I do not believe they would be actually asking/expecting Disney to reverse themselves.

I still think the best result for Gunn is screenwriter, exec producer, continues work on Marvel Cosmic. If that doesn’t happen GoTGv3 as originally envisioned doesn’t happen and the next Guardians movie moves out at least a year. That is about as half as you can get for a punishment without backing away completely.

There is no way that GoTGv3 still releases in May 2020 without Gunn in some way, the well is too poisoned now.

Edit - the more I’ve thought about this the more I think Disney walks away from GoTG until 2021 at the earliest.

 

[AEfx]

Plus this would quickly get his overall career back on track.

That's why I genuinely feel badly for him. Not sure where things could go from here. With Fox/Disney out, there kinda goes Superhero movies, unless WB snagged him and I don't think that is going to happen. Basically, it is going to be tough for anyone to give him a job because of the specific subjects involved with the tweets/blog posts, and as was pointed out earlier - he doesn't exactly have the name recognition outside of superhero spheres that would get him the kinds of opportunities someone more well-known might be able to explore.

 

[Pixieish]

I've been following the RehireJamesGunn movement on Twitter (I'm only seeing tweets with that hashtag), and relatively few are focusing on Cernovich himself (but watching them fire Cernovich's own stuff back at him when his lackeys try to egg them on has been...interesting - oh, by Cernovich's own tweet, he also thinks David Koresh was a good guy ).

There are a few big points that come up regularly - the redemtion story arc relative to the movies and Gunn himself, the hypocrisy of using the tweets as the basis for firing him vs. Disney's own film history and how Lasseter and Weinstein were handled, and the wrongness of condemning someone for behavior from 10 years ago. The last of those is the one people seem to be focusing on the most and amplifying.

 

[Rodan75]

I've been following the RehireJamesGunn movement on Twitter (I'm only seeing tweets with that hashtag), and relatively few are focusing on Cernovich himself (but watching them fire Cernovich's own stuff back at him when his lackeys try to egg them on has been...interesting - oh, by Cernovich's own tweet, he also thinks David Koresh was a good guy ).

There are a few big points that come up regularly - the redemtion story arc relative to the movies and Gunn himself, the hypocrisy of using the tweets as the basis for firing him vs. Disney's own film history and how Lasseter and Weinstein were handled, and the wrongness of condemning someone for behavior from 10 years ago. The last of those is the one people seem to be focusing on the most and amplifying.

I think there is roughly 20% chance Gunn works with Marvel in any capacity for GoTGv3. And that decision will likely depend on how much Feige is willing to fight for him (if at all) with Iger and if Zenia thinks that the PR can be managed and that they will be able to sell the movie. (I normally don’t believe Iger gets involved in stuff like this, but this one is big enough)

I think Disney was disappointed that GoTGv2 didn’t break $1B, that may be the biggest sin here.

 

[AEfx]

There are a few big points that come up regularly - the redemtion story arc relative to the movies and Gunn himself, the hypocrisy of using the tweets as the basis for firing him vs. Disney's own film history and how Lasseter and Weinstein were handled, and the wrongness of condemning someone for behavior from 10 years ago. The last of those is the one people seem to be focusing on the most and amplifying.

Good, because the other ones are weak at best, LOL. They sound very social-media-y, haha. "Disney can't complain about anything, they made Song of the South and Walt Disney was racist!" LOL. I can hear it now. Thank you sincerely for summarizing and saving us from it.

When it comes to the 10 years ago thing, I agree, I strenuously said so from the beginning. But knowing about the context that changed when the person he was making jokes with actually is convicted of the crime they were "joking" about...I wouldn't have made the same decision Disney did, but I think people aren't thinking about this in terms of business enough to see how that does indeed change things.

 

[Princess Leia]

I still think the best result for Gunn is screenwriter, exec producer, continues work on Marvel Cosmic. If that doesn’t happen GoTGv3 as originally envisioned doesn’t happen and the next Guardians movie moves out at least a year. That is about as half *** as you can get for a punishment without backing away completely.

There is no way that GoTGv3 still releases in May 2020 without Gunn in some way, the well is too poisoned now.

Edit - the more I’ve thought about this the more I think Disney walks away from GoTG until 2021 at the earliest.

I’ve read that GotG3 was to be the kick off for Phase 4/NewMCU (idk what it will be called), but really, that’s Spider-Man: Far From Home. GotG3 would be the first Disney movie in the next phase though. Depending on Gunn’s involvement, the movie is definitely being pushed back a few months, if not a year. Black Panther 2, Doctor Strange 2, and Black Widow probably just all had their production schedules bumped up.

 

[Pixieish]

Good, because the other ones are weak at best, LOL. They sound very social-media-y, haha. "Disney can't complain about anything, they made Song of the South and Walt Disney was racist!" LOL. I can hear it now. Thank you sincerely for summarizing and saving us from it.

When it comes to the 10 years ago thing, I agree, I strenuously said so from the beginning. But knowing about the context that changed when the person he was making jokes with actually is convicted of the crime they were "joking" about...I wouldn't have made the same decision Disney did, but I think people aren't thinking about this in terms of business enough to see how that does indeed change things.

Yep. That gets brought up a lot by Cernovich and his followers. Overall, the people behind the movement seem to be very level-headed. They aren't even getting caught up in the bull Cernovich and his guys keep trying to stir up. There are a few exceptions, but seriously - I'm impressed that it hasn't become all-out war over there. Gunn's supporters are really sticking to using logical arguments to back their support.

 

[Rodan75]

Yep. That gets brought up a lot by Cernovich and his followers. Overall, the people behind the movement seem to be very level-headed. They aren't even getting caught up in the bull Cernovich and his guys keep trying to stir up. There are a few exceptions, but seriously - I'm impressed that it hasn't become all-out war over there. Gunn's supporters are really sticking to using logical arguments to back their support.

I saw a new justification statement in an IGN comments section and it creates a narrative that I think could be leveraged to bring him back.

And this is about as dark magic as I can go so bear with me, but if James Gunn comes forward as a victim of abuse and those comments were a way of coping. Disney could say that they evaluated the situation, Gunn is in some form of victim counseling or better channel his feelings, and while they disagree with the comments and that way of coping that fundamentally they don’t believe in punishing the victim. That would put Gunn’s personal narrative in line with the narrative theme of GoTG.

That is a lot of speculation there, but it does open up the smallest of holes. Suddenly the media tour becomes about surviving abuse and turning that into art.

 

[Pixieish]

I saw a new justification statement in an IGN comments section and it creates a narrative that I think could be leveraged to bring him back.

And this is about as dark magic as I can go so bear with me, but if James Gunn comes forward as a victim of abuse and those comments were a way of coping. Disney could say that they evaluated the situation, Gunn is in some form of victim counseling or better channel his feelings, and while they disagree with the comments and that way of coping that fundamentally they don’t believe in punishing the victim. That would put Gunn’s personal narrative in line with the narrative theme of GoTG.

That is a lot of speculation there, but it does open up the smallest of holes.

I've seen screenshots of his writings referring to his own abuse, so that is a real possibility.

 

[Rodan75]

I've seen screenshots of his writings referring to his own abuse, so that is a real possibility.

Although, I can’t imagine using something so personal, as fuel for the mill to save a career and sell a movie.

 

[Pixieish]

Although, I can’t imagine using something so personal, as fuel for the mill to save a career and sell a movie.

He's written about it publicly and even mentioned the name of a priest (or some other person of the church) in regards to what happened. I got the impression that he needs to talk about it and isn't shy about it at all.

 

[AEfx]

I saw a new justification statement in an IGN comments section and it creates a narrative that I think could be leveraged to bring him back.

And this is about as dark magic as I can go so bear with me, but if James Gunn comes forward as a victim of abuse and those comments were a way of coping. Disney could say that they evaluated the situation, Gunn is in some form of victim counseling or better channel his feelings, and while they disagree with the comments and that way of coping that fundamentally they don’t believe in punishing the victim. That would put Gunn’s personal narrative in line with the narrative theme of GoTG.

That is a lot of speculation there, but it does open up the smallest of holes. Suddenly the media tour becomes about surviving abuse and turning that into art.

That's something that was brought up here, a bit earlier - and I think it might have worked before they fired him the first time. Now? I just can't see how, no matter what they can come up with, Disney can say "You know what, we unfairly fired him." How do they admit that, even legally?

 

[flynnibus]

From everything I've read about Walt, though, he wanted to make money so that he could continue to explore and innovate and pursue his passions. The company came close to insolvency several times because, well, innovation is expensive and risky. Luckily, Walt was right more often than he was wrong and was a good judge of what would be popular with the masses. It was Roy's job to find the money to fund Walt's ambitions. It's a miracle Roy outlived Walt. It was a privately-held company while Walt was alive, so there wasn't the same kind of pressure to consistently increase the value of the company

Company went public before Walt passed. And worse than that... the company was on the hook to it's lenders before that. It really wasn't until Disneyland exploded that the company escaped the burden of being accountable to someone else. Many pivots in the company's history were not fueled by innovation, but necessity. Like the move to live action...

Difference was, the majority of the shares (and hence control) was held close... not out in institutional investors like these days, nor is the market as volatile and insistent on huge returns. It's a product of the times and environment.

The pressure to perform was there... but unlike focusing on returns for gain... Walt used success to simply feed his next idea or need. He would put everything back into his vision time and time again.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

https://www.wired.com/story/crying-pedophile-is-the-oldest-propaganda-trick-in-the-book/

 

[Pixieish]

https://www.wired.com/story/crying-pedophile-is-the-oldest-propaganda-trick-in-the-book/

I saw that. It really is. As is creating false outrage.

And I'm currently cringing at Cernovich referring to himself as a journalist. He's a freaking blogger. Talk about delusions of grandeur and misinformation.

 

[AEfx]

https://www.wired.com/story/crying-pedophile-is-the-oldest-propaganda-trick-in-the-book/

OMG, that article misses the point so far that it might have well as landed in another galaxy, LOL...man, it is so sad that even places like Wired have fallen so deep down the rabbit hole.