A Spirited 15 Rounds ...

[HMF]

True, but that's more of a modern capitalism problem than a Disney problem.

Most if not all of Disney,s problems can be blamed on modern capitalism.

 

[Bocabear]

Lack of weenies? The castle, Tron, 7DMT, the mountain in AI etc.

reread and look at what is being said...Yes there are some big structures but it is their lack of connectivity and staging...
This is also what Ifear about the proposed Spine Design for EPCOT... if they remove Communicore and just add a bunch of trees and lamp posts, I fear the same scenario will play out there... A lack of focus and staging...

 

[shortstop]

Most if not all of Disney,s problems can be blamed on modern capitalism.

In addition to many of its successes... but alas that's a discussion for another time and another place.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Scale: too many buildings just seem too "big" for lack of a better word. Starting right at the entrance with the train-station-that's-not-really-a-station to the castle to all of Tomorrowland. The structures are quite detailed when looked at individually, but detail =/= theme, and they don't ever feel connected to their surroundings. And their large size means they feel inhuman when you're standing next to them, dwarfed by their mass. All the open space in the park doesn't help either; that's why the Imagination Gardens in front of the castle feel like a big area of nothing - it's because they are. They're beautiful, but they're too big with not enough stuff to focus on, which leads to the second issue...

It’s not just too big, but also too small. Mickey Avenue has no forced perspective. The upper floors are too small and clearly could not be habitable space.

detail =/= theme

Detail does equal theme. It is ornament that does not equal detail. Details are small and enhance the story.

- "Weenies" (or lack thereof): the things to which your eyes are drawn. When you walk through SDL, too much of your view is trees and lampposts followed by more trees and lampposts. There's nothing in the distance that grabs your attention, no structure to focus on. Too often you're walking alongside something, rarely toward anything (just like you would at a strip mall). For example, as you enter Tomorrowland from the "hub" at SDL, all you really see are trees and lampposts. Contrast that to the MK, where the entrance arch, Astro Obiter and Peoplemover all draw your eyes down the walkway and give you successive focal points. It's another reason why the Imagination Gardens don't really work at SDL. Stand at their center and your view is basically of, you guessed it, trees and lampposts. Stand at the center of the MK Hub and you see the walkways leading toward Adventureland, Liberty Square, and Tomorrowland, each providing a small glimpse into each land.

This comes from organization around edge conditions. The landmarks of the park are never properly framed and their is no movement through spaces to reach these landmarks.

As an aside, I would recommend people look up the terminology Kevin Lynch uses in his opus The Image of the City. How Lynch explores urban spaces as a series of images is highly relevant to themed design since it is a highly visual medium built on image making.

Lack of weenies? The castle, Tron, 7DMT, the mountain in AI etc.

Weenie is not synonymous with marquee attraction. The edge-based organization means the park lacks nodes anchored by landmarks that are reached through spaces.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

True, but that's more of a modern capitalism problem than a Disney problem.

A certain spirit once said, "you can't Walmart Walt Disney World without Walmarting America first."

 

[HMF]

In addition to many of its successes... but alas that's a discussion for another time and another place.

Not in this century.

 

[hpyhnt 1000]

Detail does equal theme. It is ornament that does not equal detail. Details are small and enhance the story.

D'oh! In my head I thought that but didn't bother to think about the proper wording. Edited my original post.

 

[lazyboy97o]

D'oh! In my head I thought that but didn't bother to think about the proper wording. Edited my original post.

I don’t think you’re post needed editing. What you wrote is how the terms are used but I take issue with a lot of our vocabulary as it reinforces a lot of the wrong ideas.

 

[matt9112]

I want to know how paid FP squeezes into two things....

1. annual pass holders
2. extensive pre planning of FP+ selection?

 

[Daveeeeed]

Not the best image, but this is how you do one of the park's main weenies:

The entrance to the land is clearly known from the style and the sign. The fort acts as a separation for theming Frontierland, but it also allows the land's 'hook' that is easy to bite: Big Thunder Mountain. And what makes this land what I think is the best castle land of all time is the inclusion of a second weenie: Phantom Manor:

Tie them together with a gripping story and some of the best theming to come out of the mouse house and you've got a masterpiece.

I think DLP is far superior to the MK as everytime MK did a similar weenie, they improved it. Space Mountain, POTC, Phantom Manor, and Big Thunder are all stunning. If you haven't already, I would recommend checking out the story of DLP's Frontierland and looking at all of their weenies. Tony Baxter is a god.

Themeparks are multi-sensory experiences which need to concepts to pull you in. A theme park has a theme/mission statement, then has lands and attractions within those lands supporting them. Almost all of the best lands on Earth need some form of a weenie.

Many of my favorite weenies are when you turn a corner and BAM!

They all have in common an epic reveal. I haven't been to Shanghai yet, but simply by seeing photos, maps, etc. it's fairly obvious that the sight lines are not as out of this world as the detail is.

 

[EPCOTCenterLover]

^^^ AGREE- DLP's Frontierland is the pinnacle of perfection in my book.

 

[ford91exploder]

True, but that's more of a modern capitalism problem than a Disney problem.

Not really it's a lazy business philosophy. The park down the road does not have a 'velvet rope' problem where Disney definitely does.

But the park down the road is interested in increasing top line revenue where at Disney its become about squeezing every last nickle out of guests. Both increase profit but the first is more sustainable and ironically is the model Disney followed until the arrival of Iger

 

[UpAllNight]

Not sure if asked, but would resort guests still get their 3 fastpasses, with none resort guests asked to pay for the service?

There absolutely needs to be on site benefits to justify the massive costs and being allowed to book 60 days out, for fastpasses you may decide not to buy, only pushes me towards staying onsite at Universal.

 

[Tavernacle12]

Pay for FP seems like a terrible idea for the consumer (obviously), especially since many of the popular rides run out already. They're going to charge more for the opportunity to maybe get what you want? I wouldn't mind it 'too' much if you could pay to start off with extra FPs or FP multiple Tier One rides, since at least everyone could still FP something for free... but it still seems awful. I'd pray if it comes it isn't too expensive.

To bring up something from a few pages back, assume I have no non-completionist interest in HKDL and SDL and have been eyeing my chance to get to TDL for years, is it still worth it to visit DPL first to get my international feet wet? There's a lot I'd like to see at Paris, but far more at Tokyo.

 

[LuckyOswald]

I'm not too familiar on specifics, but thought I had seen mention in the past about FP+ being responsible for the increased standby wait times. If paid FP+ comes around, is there ANY chance that standby will be reduced? Either by limiting the amount of FP sold or naturally by not everyone purchasing it?

Thanks, I'll hang up and listen

 

[Donaldfan1934]

Not really it's a lazy business philosophy. The park down the road does not have a 'velvet rope' problem where Disney definitely does.

But the park down the road is interested in increasing top line revenue where at Disney its become about squeezing every last nickle out of guests. Both increase profit but the first is more sustainable and ironically is the model Disney followed until the arrival of Iger

Oh please, don't act like Universal isn't just as guilty of this. While you are way more likely to be spending less money there since it is a smaller resort, prices for most things there, including ticket prices for their parks, are roughly on par with their Disney equivalents. On top of that, they charge for their Express Pass service when Disney doesn't for FP+. Although given what @WDW1974 has been saying, FP+ won't be free with admission much longer.

 

[ford91exploder]

Oh please, don't act like Universal isn't just as guilty of this. While you are way more likely to be spending less money there since it is a smaller resort, prices for most things there, including ticket prices for their parks, are roughly on par with their Disney equivalents. On top of that, they charge for their Express Pass service when Disney doesn't for FP+. Although given what @WDW1974 has been saying, FP+ won't be free with admission much longer.

You get ExpressPass with your hotel stay if staying onsite, paid Express pass is for day guests. And you get it with the Premier Passports, Second UNI does not close the parks for 'parties' and there are no 'dessert parties' in prime viewing spaces.

When Uni runs special events they are included with regular admission not upcharges.

So yes WDW very much has a 'velvet rope' problem.

As to prices Universal admission is the same but food and beverage is much more reasonable at Uni and everything is first come first served, no insane 6 month ADR systems

 

[ford91exploder]

I'm not too familiar on specifics, but thought I had seen mention in the past about FP+ being responsible for the increased standby wait times. If paid FP+ comes around, is there ANY chance that standby will be reduced? Either by limiting the amount of FP sold or naturally by not everyone purchasing it?

Thanks, I'll hang up and listen

You have GOT to be kidding right?, If anything this will reduce standby capacity even more than it has been already.

 

[ford91exploder]

Not sure if asked, but would resort guests still get their 3 fastpasses, with none resort guests asked to pay for the service?

There absolutely needs to be on site benefits to justify the massive costs and being allowed to book 60 days out, for fastpasses you may decide not to buy, only pushes me towards staying onsite at Universal.

And when you stay onsite at universal you get express pass ! No planning just walk up

And if you play electric guitar the Hard Rock will bring an axe and amp to your room to rock out with!

 

[FigmentForver96]

You get ExpressPass with your hotel stay if staying onsite, paid Express pass is for day guests. And you get it with the Premier Passports, Second UNI does not close the parks for 'parties' and there are no 'dessert parties' in prime viewing spaces.

When Uni runs special events they are included with regular admission not upcharges.

So yes WDW very much has a 'velvet rope' problem.

As to prices Universal admission is the same but food and beverage is much more reasonable at Uni and everything is first come first served, no insane 6 month ADR systems

Food and beverage really isn't but go ahead and keep doing you.