A Spirited 15 Rounds ...

[matt9112]

Prices should follow demand (not inflation or product quality). I suspect that demand for WDW and other forms of entertainment has increased substantially over the past 25 years. I'm not defending the WDW product decline ... I'm not happy about it. But I have no issues with the prices charged by WDW. If people are willing to pay it, then they must think the prices are worth it.

true true....the lavish lifestyle that I attach to Walt Disney world is not free.....sarcasm.

 

[ParentsOf4]

Many of the people pushed out, and there were plenty, were nearing their expiration dates. Some were considerably older than George K, who is considered ancient by today's Disney because he is on the downside of 60. And many of the guys who came in, like Lee Cockerell (who was beloved by even frontliners, despite doing more damage to WDW than just about anyone not based on the west coast), had great resumes and reps and had worked at large American corporations like Hilton, Marriott, IBM etc.

This is where we diverge. Quality absolutely was near its zenith when Wells died. Prices, also while higher, weren't obscene (they are today!) I would be hard-pressed to see any major declines in quality when Wells died. And even after he passed, WDW added DAK, added BB, added the BW, added Coronado Springs, added wonderful upscale dining, added major attractions, entertainment was updated regularly (look at the new annual parades at Disney-MGM for an example) etc.

Quality was still incredibly high. My first recollection of issues came later ... a room that was beat up and in need of work at the BC late in 96, the embarrassingly bad Test Track (although we all know it was beloved from the start), which signaled the start of dumbing down/killing EPCOT, a 25th Anniversary that was largely style over substance ... much of it I tended to overlook because DAK was amazing when it opened and the Millennium Celebration breathed life into a troubled park.

By the early 21st century (2000-2003) it was very obvious that WDW was troubled and being run in a vastly different fashion than it had been.

Actually, you and I do agree; quality was still at its zenith in the mid-1990s. What I think you fail to appreciate is how quality flows through an organization and impacts the customer.

Quality does not instantly change when senior management is replaced. Day-to-day, quality is realized through middle management and front-line employees. These are the folks who determine the experience you and I have.

However, they need the tools to do the job. When senior leadership that's less committed to quality comes in, they start making decisions that make it more difficult to realize quality. They cut budget, they reduce staff.

Those lower down in the organization tend to compensate as best they can. They know what quality means and strive even harder to maintain old standards.

However, this takes its toll. Over time, some give up; it's too exhausting to do the job right without the necessary tools. Others simply quit, replaced by less experienced people who have little appreciation of old standards. Over time, quality declines.

I still stand by my statement that by 1994, Michael Eisner and Frank Wells had forced out those in Parks & Resorts senior leadership who were committed to Disney's old standard of excellence, sowing the seeds of the decline in quality at WDW.

 

[floridagirl57]

I've stayed at Pop for $28/night within the last decade, back when the recession hit hotels hard.

Compare that to January of this year when I paid $140 (total, includes taxes) for 1 night at POP, and that was with an AP discount! I've never felt so burned for the desire to stay in the Disney bubble. A completely over priced motel.

 

[jessfriends]

I got the new Mickey Monitor and had to laugh as they talked about HOW GREAT IT IS TO BE A PASSHOLDER because you get a FREE BUTTON at Epcot for F&W. I mean ... seriously? It's ridiculous.

If WDW were to do a Passholder night they'd charge you for it.

Did you see that it said on the first page under in this issue that there will be Passholder beverages at Food & Wine? That was not covered in the issue and I think they meant to talk about the buttons as that was covered unless I missed some announcement somewhere that was news to me. Also, I wasn't aware that you could get other buttons at the kiosks with a purchase. When I went to the link they were not there to view just the wording that talks about them. I would prefer the glasses as I actually use them.

 

[Princess Leia]

One Halloween-themed note: don't know how many of you are aware of the amazing job HKDL does annually at holding a non-upcharge (only WDW and DLR charge extra for the holiday, although DL has the decency to offer overlays to two major E-Tickets for all Guests) celebration. And one most definitely aimed at tweens and older. This isn't the WDW mandate that MNSSHP (and every single offering) not offend special needs six-year-olds' Mommy Bloggers!

They actually have things that can scare you and generally offer multiple entertainment offerings, including temporary haunted houses, which while short on gore (how many zombies sucking on fake arms with fake blood squirting does one need, UNI?) are long on frights, theming and storytelling.

This year, they are doing something I think is borderline genius (in other words, common sense). They are offering a haunted house based on what scares you from Disney films, including Pinocchio, Hercules, Monsters Inc., Alice in Wonderland (Tim Burton films) and Beauty and the Beast. One reason these films work so well is they touch us emotionally and part of that is by scaring us (however temporarily so we can have the happy ending). Kids (and likely some fanbois) have nightmares after seeing some of these films. And that is OK ... but finally mining them in an attraction is just great. (Better than the infamous Villains Mountain blue sky deal or the never ever even getting that close fifth gate dedicated to Disney baddies.)

I really hope they pull this off because it is as obvious as say UNI using their classic horror/monster films of the 30s, 40s and 50s for HHNs (oh, they are still opting for gorefests based on current IP?) It amazes me that Disney has never attempted this.

Of course, I can recall four times in the last 20 years that execs with sense and a tiny bit of vision have tried to push through a more adult themed Halloween event at Disney's XXXXL Third Gate MAGICLand Park (really, is that list that three people from here sent me, legit?!?! They are so bereft of ideas and of understanding what that park will be that they can't come up with anything?!) only to be shot down (quite cruelly the second time, I might add).

Anyway, just in case you were interested.

Pinocchio and Snow White are the two classic Disney films that legitimately terrified me growing up (was also afraid of parts of BatB, Aladdin, Sleeping Beauty, and Hercules, but nothing like the first two I mentioned), and I'm really curious to see what Disney offers with that haunted house.

Though it seems like the Pinocchio ride at Disneyland kind of serves the same purpose, as does Snow White's Scary Adventures, for those who want the nightmares year-round.

 

[WDWTrojan]

Actually, you and I do agree; quality was still at its zenith in the mid-1990s. What I think you fail to appreciate is how quality flows through an organization and impacts the customer.

Quality does not instantly change when senior management is replaced. Day-to-day, quality is realized through middle management and front-line employees. These are the folks who determine the experience you and I have.

I worked at WDW in the 99-04 era and I remember specific tangible things that really effected quality of the guest show.

Lee Cockerell, who was the head of operations for the resort, used to write a "Main Street Diary," where he'd share guest experiences but also talk about decisions he's made which showcased his "talent" for streamlining business. Usually the guest letters were special but the operations side of the business was always eye-brow raising. Little things that he'd brag about had an impact guests would notice, for example he'd talk about trimming the types of French fries the resort served from 8 to 2, while cutting the burger patty types to only three, trimming the types of dinner rolls to only a couple. They trimmed back on the house made or special order sauces ('Ohana used to have a trio of incredible unique-to-Disney sauces but now only offers mass-produced store bought sauce). All of this sounds small on paper and ways to save some money but the reality was that guests were now given a homogenized experience. Disney was supposed to be above these kinds of cost-cutting measures. No longer could a restaurant offer a unique burger or French fry that related to their theme or to differentiate themselves (Flame Tree used to have these incredible BBQ seasoned fries). On a similar note, he would often brag about the ability to cut back on certain maintenance intitives by integrating departments. No longer would you never see a light burnt out on Main Street because they were proactively changed out by a speciality team, now it must wait until it's burnt out. These are small changes but it's the kind of thing Six Flags would do, Disney is supposed more unique and restaurants were supposed to be different.

Another brag was the homogenization of merchandise. Disney use to pride themselves in offering unique merchandise that you could only find in specific stores. Anybody remember the magic shop or the medieval shop on the castle? They even had a "shopping pass" you could buy from guest services as so many unique items that were only available in certain locations in case guests wanted to go back and get them. Today there's a merchandise hotline to buy such items but it's far easier to orchestrate as there's so few park-specific items. Not only were many of these items exclusive to locations but many weren't even Disney-branded, but trinkets and other themed items that were relevant to the area they were sold. Alas, these days are long gone. Everything is Disney-branded and most of the attraction specific stuff only makes a major appearance before that ride closes to make way for whatever new IP is being stuffed into the space. Note that World Showcase is the exception to this rule as many of the merchants are run by third parities and therefore do not sell Disney stuff.

Another very "insidery" thing which impacted guest service was the addition of the computerized "cast deployment" system, which was a labor tracker that also began telling cast members on an attraction or at a quick service restaurant how long to work in a certain position before rotating or going on break. Previously cast members rotated themselves every 15-30 minutes and there was a well-tested system which provided for breaks, etc. The downside to this was two-fold: it killed morale because cast members no longer felt empowered, now they were slaves to a computer. Further, previously cast would be in positions for 20-40 minutes before being rotated to a new position. This kept people fresh and alert. With the new system, they were in positions for 60-75 minutes. Again while this might sound small, it isn't for cast members who are in exceedingly stressful and/or safety-critical positions.

 

[Burgower1994]

http://variety.com/2017/biz/news/hu...-milion-to-storm-recovery-efforts-1202541474/

Disney has given one million dollars to the American red cross to help with the devastation from Hurricane Harvey.


..... I live in Houston, and my home got over a foot in a 1-1/2 feet haft of water. We are thankful that 1my family is okay and we are safe. Please Disney community consider giving donations and giving a prayer to Texas

 

[ford91exploder]

I worked at WDW in the 99-04 era and I remember specific tangible things that really effected quality of the guest show.

Lee Cockerell, who was the head of operations for the resort, used to write a "Main Street Diary," where he'd share guest experiences but also talk about decisions he's made which showcased his "talent" for streamlining business. Usually the guest letters were special but the operations side of the business was always eye-brow raising. Little things that he'd brag about had an impact guests would notice, for example he'd talk about trimming the types of French fries the resort served from 8 to 2, while cutting the burger patty types to only three, trimming the types of dinner rolls to only a couple. They trimmed back on the house made or special order sauces ('Ohana used to have a trio of incredible unique-to-Disney sauces but now only offers mass-produced store bought sauce). All of this sounds small on paper and ways to save some money but the reality was that guests were now given a homogenized experience. Disney was supposed to be above these kinds of cost-cutting measures. No longer could a restaurant offer a unique burger or French fry that related to their theme or to differentiate themselves (Flame Tree used to have these incredible BBQ seasoned fries). On a similar note, he would often brag about the ability to cut back on certain maintenance intitives by integrating departments. No longer would you never see a light burnt out on Main Street because they were proactively changed out by a speciality team, now it must wait until it's burnt out. These are small changes but it's the kind of thing Six Flags would do, Disney is supposed more unique and restaurants were supposed to be different.

Another brag was the homogenization of merchandise. Disney use to pride themselves in offering unique merchandise that you could only find in specific stores. Anybody remember the magic shop or the medieval shop on the castle? They even had a "shopping pass" you could buy from guest services as so many unique items that were only available in certain locations guest wanted to go back and get them. Not only were many of these items exclusive to locations but many weren't even Disney-branded, but trinkets and other themed items that were relevant to the area they were. Alas, these days are long gone. Everything is Disney-branded and most of the attraction specific stuff only makes a major appearance before that ride closes to make way for whatever new IP is being stuffed into the space.

Another very "insidery" thing which impacted guest service was the addition of the computerized "cast deployment" system, which was a labor tracker that also began telling cast members on an attraction or at a quick service restaurant how long to work in a certain position before rotating or going on break. Previously cast members rotated themselves every 15-30 minutes and there was a well-tested system which provided for breaks, etc. The downside to this was two-fold: it killed morale because cast members no longer felt empowered, now they were slaves to a computer. Further, previously cast would be in positions for 20-40 minutes before being rotated to a new position. This kept people fresh and alert. With the new system, they were in positions for 60-75 minutes. Again while this might sound small, it isn't for cast members who are in exceedingly stressful and/or safety-critical positions.

Lee Cockerell one of the chief architects of the destruction of the 'Disney Difference' along with Meg Crofton and Phil Holmes.

Cockerell does not get the opprobrium he so richly deserves here on WDWMagic

He's known to most guests only through 'Cockerell Fries'

 

[rioriz]

I'm different. I live closer. I don't have to buy airfare, I don't have kids, I travel solo. For me it's still affordable (I don't pay for a Disney hotel. I pay under 80 bucks a night for a room on Hotel Plaza Blvd). I understand some are at their tipping point. I get it. If I lived elsewhere and had more people to pay for, I probably wouldn't do it (and there was a period of time I didn't go, for several years, 2008-2015 springs to mind - when they weren't investing in the parks - and I traveled elsewhere, took cruises, went to California) But nothing they've done so far has really made me not want to go. I don't like every decision they make. But we have to understand just because we feel a certain way, not everyone shares that opinion. Because some find less value, there's thousands of others who do. For those who hate what Epcot has become or is becoming, thousands more embrace it. For those that don't like Marvel shoved in, or Star Wars, thousands of others do.

We're a very small minority who look at the parks differently, right or wrong others don't see it the same way and that's who they're catering to.

I'm not going to throw my arms up because they should have used their money better and given us something other than Toy Story Land.

I have to say if they gutted SSE that could be a tipping point. But so far nothing they've done has made me not want to go. I don't like Guardians going into Epcot but it's not stopping me from going. I don't think Frozen was the right fit for WS but I'm fine with Ratatouille. I don't think TRON was the answer for the MK but I'm still looking forward to it. Not everything is make or break for me or black and white.

What do you think the tipping point should be?

I used to be a long range visitor but now that i am local i have the same sentiments. I also am the type of person that doesn't throw fits over the things i cant control in WDW or the world. With WDW i can choose to go, experience the rides, foods, and shows that appeal to me and ignore those that dont. I haven't stepped foot in The Seas in over 7 years. And if it left tomorrow id have no emotional attachment. It does all come down to personal preference at times.

I am also not one to believe the sky is or will fall just because someone says it is. Until i experience it falling i wont panic and will go on with my day as planned.

SSE would also be a tipping point for me though.

 

[matt9112]

You're so right value is subjective. I would NEVER pay $1k for a hotel room at Disney (or anywhere else). But I wouldn't bat an eye dropping $1k on a meet and greet to see my favorite pop star before a show

hopefully it's T swift!

 

[ford91exploder]

Don't forget wands! $50 for $3 plastic? Nice markup!

The wands well first thing they are movie prop quality resin (lets just say there is a young HP superfan in the household and i've bought the whole outfit for them) not cheap polystyrene which will break at the slightest impact (like most Disney merchandise). You are correct though on the likely material costing

But even the wands contribute to the atmosphere at HPL because they are designed to interact with the show elements.

But they only work if used in the correct way to 'cast a spell' so there is also an element of mastery there. It's a school of magic and the theme is consistent through the land.

Even the cosplayers add to the atmosphere i have never seen so many young asian women in full Gryffindor or Hufflepuff robes and ties

Brilliantly done and i imagine massively profitable.

HPL does make one think what would we do if we knew there was a subset of humans who could directly manipulate space/time/energy and matter

Arthur C Clarke noted any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic ...

 

[ford91exploder]

Actually, you and I do agree; quality was still at its zenith in the mid-1990s. What I think you fail to appreciate is how quality flows through an organization and impacts the customer.

Quality does not instantly change when senior management is replaced. Day-to-day, quality is realized through middle management and front-line employees. These are the folks who determine the experience you and I have.

However, they need the tools to do the job. When senior leadership that's less committed to quality comes in, they start making decisions that make it more difficult to realize quality. They cut budget, they reduce staff.

Those lower down in the organization tend to compensate as best they can. They know what quality means and strive even harder to maintain old standards.

However, this takes its toll. Over time, some give up; it's too exhausting to do the job right without the necessary tools. Others simply quit, replaced by less experienced people who have little appreciation of old standards. Over time, quality declines.

I still stand by my statement that by 1994, Michael Eisner and Frank Wells had forced out those in Parks & Resorts senior leadership who were committed to Disney's old standard of excellence, sowing the seeds of the decline in quality at WDW.

Exactly, Quality is a corporate culture thing and while if flows from the top down, every employee needs to internalize the 'quality' mindset. I.E. we have time to do it right we dont have time to do it over,

Stated another way if its a choice between quality and the numbers Well the numbers lose.

 

[asianway]

Lee Cockerell one of the chief architects of the destruction of the 'Disney Difference' along with Meg Crofton and Phil Holmes.

Cockerell does not get the opprobrium he so richly deserves here on WDWMagic

He's known to most guests only through 'Cockerell Fries'

Ironically - the fries are now more varied. In fact, I think you can order 3 different types of fries at Crews Cup alone.

 

[WDWTrojan]

Ironically - the fries are now more varied. In fact, I think you can order 3 different types of fries at Crews Cup alone.

There are some exceptions. At Crew's Cup, for example, they hand make their fries from potatoes with different toppings from the Yachtsman kitchen. What I was referring to is the quick service places that don't have that luxury. Some places used to offer seasoned fries, while others could offer a different type. It made each meal unique.

 

[wdwmagic]

Ironically - the fries are now more varied. In fact, I think you can order 3 different types of fries at Crews Cup alone.

There are over 200 to choose from - a good amount of them come from http://www.lambweston.com/product

 

[WildcatDen]

I can't believe it. Here I am the old, evil, vile, Disney-hating Spirit conjured up from the very pits of Hellfire and Damnation and ...

I kind of picture you as Rumpelstiltskin from the Once upon a Time series. . . @WDW1974 - The Dark One. . .

 

[ChrisM]

I always find this WDW burn out thing a bit fascinating. It seems for many "Disney" is owning 3-4 DVC's with a minimum biannual pilgrimage... or nothing. I think there is a lot of people who have recently awoken to the fact they've been swindled for the last decade, but the reaction feels like a delayed commitment you should have made a decade ago, not today.

WDW is a whole lot more enjoyable if you didn't actually burn yourself out on the product in the last decade. The solution isn't quitting cold turkey now, it was moderation for the last 10-20 years. Can't exactly help if you made that mistake already.

I realize I'm likely in the minority amidst the forum population here, but I will never understand the mentality that leads any non-local to make multiple visits per year.

We generally cycle down around every 3-4 years and that is plenty, especially given the pace at which the resort has been developed in recent history.

It's a big, beautiful world out there, folks. Worth checking out some time!

 

[Hakunamatata]

It's a big, beautiful world out there, folks. Worth checking out some time!

Agree with this. We went to the Grand Canyon in July. Was nice to see that Disney pricing for food court type food, cheap tshirts, opportune purchases (water bottles, sunscreen, etc) was not as excesive as others would tend to complain about, relatively speaking.

 

[flynnibus]

Since August and September are the slowest months of the year, who can blame them for starting Halloween early? Why does that bother anyone?

For the same reason seeing holloween candy in the store last week was bothersome.

Why not just let kids walk around every night going door to door asking for candy? I mean, people are home right? Kids like candy all year right? What's to lose?

BTW, I am now accepting birthday gifts up to 60 days before my actual birthday.

And... your point might have some more merit if the halloween in question didn't displace existing activities or opportunities.

 

[Kiff]

I have been sourcing (or trying) an explosive tale about the future of ... (God, don't make me regret posting this ..) Marvel in Disney Parks.

When being apprised of certain things about D23's Expo and the no-Marvel announcement for the second time in three years and then hearing other comments about the future of Anaheim's proposed (because that's all it is at this point ... although I suppose you could use 'stalled' or 'dead in the water' etc.) Eastern Gateway entry and infrastructure, there seemed to be something else not being said.

And it would appear it involves the future use of Marvel properties in Disney's parks (please, please, please don't start 78 pages on your belief Disney and UNI are negotiating UNI's unconditional surrender or any such crap here -- I am already about 16 pages behind) and ... I don't wish to say more because I am not a rumormonger. I am not someone who likes to start rumors. I like to report news or things I am sure of at present time. This isn't one of those situations. But there are some troubling signs about things a lot of you are taking for granted.

I know that doesn't say much. What can I do? I can tell you that Marvel attractions that have been budgeted and started are absolutely happening (things like GotG: Peter Quill's Amazing 1983 Day at WDW where his Mommy, since she was dying of cancer, let him order the steak at the Poly's Tangaroa Terrace and ... HKDL's Tears of a Clown: Buzz Lightyear Gets Removed By Marvel Ants and John Lasseter Goes on a Drunken Binge and Trashes the best suite at the HKDL Hotel). But all those other things ... well, remember at various points of time (the 1990s Disney Decade ... all those 2007-08 era WDW projects etc.) when things were said to be happening? I wouldn't bet your life savings on them. Again, I am attempting to determine what is fact, what is possible and ... what is entertaining fiction.

The tale being spat up sounds plausible, but that doesn't mean it is happening (much like Indy at DAK). I just don't wish to post more until some clarity is achieved.

Sorry.

Short of divesting themselves of the marvel assets I don't see why Disney would hold off on cramming this into the park wherever it makes sense.... or doesn't make sense. An argument could be made that Marvel Studios is at a peak valuation and it may be a good time to shop the asset... but I won't descend into pointless uninformed theorizing.