A Spirited 15 Rounds ...

Donaldfan1934

Well-Known Member
That’s Eisnerian revisionist history. EPCOT Center was a success. They certainly didn’t build enough hotel rooms to profit off the park, but Walt Disney Attractions kept the lights on. The studio side of the business dragged down WDP’s stock price, not EPCOT.
EPCOT Center may have been more successful upon opening than some people give it credit for, but I'm not so sure if the issues with public perception were entirely an Eisner myth. This I Love the 80's clip suggests that reception of the original park was more mixed than what a lot of us on this forum would like to believe.
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
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EPCOT Center may have been more successful upon opening than some people give it credit for, but I'm not so sure if the issues with public perception were entirely an Eisner myth. This I Love the 80's clip suggests that reception of the original park was more mixed than what a lot of us on this forum would like to believe.
I just posted this in another thread, but it may be relevant here also. It's a review of EPCOT from a travel magazine published in 1984: https://books.google.com/books?id=ADEDAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA16&dq=epcot a second year&pg=PA16#v=onepage&q=epcot a second year&f=false
 

GiveMeTheMusic

Well-Known Member
It’s also the same broken development process we see today in which decisions are rooted in something other than story and experience.
Uh not sure what you mean by this as every Disney Parks Blog post will tell you that every little thing is about STORY. There's even a STORY for why Soarin' Around the World is playing at DCA, and when I read it, I literally howled
 

Donaldfan1934

Well-Known Member
... and i was mainly using jc as a yet jc persists with the illusion so long dead it's become a parody of itself - i can't shake the thought it's distasteful to the creators... of course, i may be digging too deeply

regardless, jingle cruise
Except jokes have been a part of the Jungle Cruise since the 60's, so it can't be distasteful to the creators since it was the creators who turned the ride into what it is today.
 

yensidtlaw1969

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
Totally disagree there. The AAs that have repetitive limited motion just strike me as incredibly cheap. I'd rather have a projection than an AA waving its hand back and forth (cf. 'fish on a stick' at Mermaid's dark ride).

And FEA has plenty of good AAs. Dinging it for using projections to extend the Elsa scene instead of dropping in limited, cheap AAs is beyond my ability to comprehend by not looking at the attraction as a whole.
So if each scene in Pirates had one fantastic animatronic instead of a bunch of mid-to-low range repetitive ones (which are punctuated by some very nice ones, to be fair), would it be better? Or the graveyard in the Haunted Mansion? AA's like the ones in those scenes are used to draw quickly-legible situations, and the individual AA's need not be so spectacular because your attention is being drawn to the forest and not the trees. The Elsa AA is a nice tree that doesn't have much forest in the rest of her scene. All the AA's in Frozen are nicely done, I won't argue that. That first Olaf in particular is amazing.

I think the intent of this idea is less "why isn't that hall filled with cheapo AA's" and more "why isn't there more to see than some screens", which is where I tend to agree. It's totally fair that not many characters would be hanging out in Elsa's Ice Palace besides her and so making her a great AA is wise, but if there was some great and compelling scenery along the way as she lets it go that moment would feel more complete. That song is the most architecturally exciting moment in the last 20 years of Disney Animation, there has to have been more that they could do to illustrate the ice palace than some "refracted" images of Elsa singing . . . and then one weird snowflake in the overhead corner and a blast of fog to mask the unpainted black walls.

If ever there was a moment to built a rich, effects laden dark ride scene, was this not it?

EDITED TO ADD: I forgot to mention that I agree the "Fish On A Stick" in Mermaid are total weak tea - but I would also not call that an AA by any stretch. Jungle Cruise's animated figures are a better comparison, or the true ensemble pirates, or basically ANY of the AA's in Mansion - excepting the new Hatbox Ghost, basically none of them are high-tech in their animation, but the sheer mass of them and the moments they portray create an impact that doesn't leave guests wanting for an A-100.
 
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MisterPenguin

Rumormonger
Premium Member
So if each scene in Pirates had one fantastic animatronic instead of a bunch of mid-to-low range repetitive ones (which are punctuated by some very nice ones, to be fair), would it be better? Or the graveyard in the Haunted Mansion? AA's like the ones in those scenes are used to draw quickly-legible situations, and the individual AA's need not be so spectacular because your attention is being drawn to the forest and not the trees.
Don't get me started on punching PotC!! ;)

For a PotC (i.e., MK's PotC) regarded as the least well done of all the PotCs, it is also cultishly guarded from attacks and suggestions of upgrades.

I just have thing for poorly done elements... not for what type of element it is. If you're going to an AA, do a good AA. If you're going to do projections, or a screen, then do a good projection or screen.

Would some of the... shall we say 'less technical'... pirates be seen as more kitschy and nostalgic than good? Sure. Are some so bad that they're just bad? Well, the ones circulating on spinners as a stand-in for running come to mind as something unbelievably bad... I mean, they can't even get their velocity right for human running, let alone the lack of any leg movements.

Let's not forget that HM and PotC have their fair share of throw-away hallways where there really aren't any special effects happening... the dark flume and the hallway of ghoulish portraits. No SFX there. In the big graveyard scene you have the wonderful singing busts (A+) and you have a head on a pogo stick pop up that shakes like a steel rod on a piston that it is (F).

My critique of FEA isn't the Let It Go Away hallway, it's that the climb really doesn't have anything going on and that Marshmallow and the snowgies should have been more articulated and kinetic.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
Totally disagree there. The AAs that have repetitive limited motion just strike me as incredibly cheap. I'd rather have a projection than an AA waving its hand back and forth (cf. 'fish on a stick' at Mermaid's dark ride).

And FEA has plenty of good AAs. Dinging it for using projections to extend the Elsa scene instead of dropping in limited, cheap AAs is beyond my ability to comprehend by not looking at the attraction as a whole.
I think the projected face animatronics are hit or miss. The Elsa animatronic on the balcony works because you don't see it from the side. The others in the attraction have a non projection component that doesn't look as good. The trolls on the other hand look fantastic.
 

MerlinTheGoat

Well-Known Member
I've said this in the past, facial projection requires two elements to pull off successfully. Good lighting conditions and a physically 3-dimensional facial surface. Even with the face projection switched off, you still need prominent physical cheekbones, nose, eye sockets forehead etc or else the face will look flat.

I again do not really dislike the Frozen animatronics. But I understand why people find them awkward and even agree to some extent. The faces at least ARE sculpted physically. They have noses, cheekbones, eye sockets etc (maybe certain protrusions could have been a bit more prominent, but they did a pretty decent job here IMO). I think the main problem here is the lighting.

The challenge with projection as a whole is that they work best when the surrounding room is kept as dark as possible. Every additional light added into a scene is an added conflict to this effect and gradually deceases the projection effect's quality, the colors and contrast become washed out, and the image quality as a whole drops. Anyone who has any experience with how projectors work will know this, you have to keep the room in a very dark state or else the effect is ruined. Any amount of light begins to decrease the quality, even reflections and bright surfaces can (including mirrors, walls with bright or white colors, glossy paint etc).

In addition, there's another inherent problem when the light source for the faces is internally projected from the inside-out. Features like the forehead, nose, eye sockets etc won't naturally cast shadows on the facial surface when internally lit like they do when lit by exterior lighting. This can look awkward when the rest of the connecting body is lit externally with spotlights and is casting natural shadows.

There are also areas around the neck and ears that look unnaturally darker than the front face. Like they're connected by a weird shadowy seam, very noticeable from angles where you're not viewing the figure head-on. I assume what is going on here is the shadow is where the internal lighting from the projector has ended. The imagineers have the challenge of lighting the rest of the body with external lights, but they can't get those lights too close to the faces or else it will interfere with the projection, washing out and ruining the effect as I mentioned above. So those shadowy areas are not fully lit and don't "glow" as much as the rest of the body. Hence, inconsistent and unnatural looking lighting in places.

Incidentally, most of the 7DMT figures (except Dopey) managed to largely avoid the shadowy seam, most of which is hidden behind their beards. I think the Frozen trolls' bulbous stubby heads and short fat necks also help hide the seam too, plus their darker blue-gray skin.

Most of the faces in Haunted Mansion (except for Constance who has the aforementioned problem of using a flat 2-dimensional facial surface) look quite good. The attraction lighting is EXTREMELY dark already, so conflicting show lighting is minimized and results in projections looking sharp and clean. Most of them (the classic effects of Leota and the busts) are also just heads anyways, so it helps that they didn't have to light a surrounding body. The glow of the projections also fit much better due to the ethereal ghostly nature of the ride.
 
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BrianLo

Well-Known Member
The difference being those movies are all good AND actually Disney. Avatar is neither. However, I don’t want to go down the Avatar rabbit hole.

The point was there is a distinct difference in Tokyo’s approach compared to the parks in America. Both are using IPs as the driving force behind expansion but Tokyo is focusing on Disney properties that fit in thematically with what they want to do rather than whatever is the hottest IP currently.

And again, I don’t dislike Star Wars or Marvel at all ... it’s just interesting to see a wildly different approach between the two countries.
I wouldn’t put them on such a pedestal. The decision making is the same, the circumstances of what is popular in Japan are different. They just don’t like Marvel nearly as much and aren’t license restricted by Universal Japan. Star Wars isn’t nearly as popular with many many animated movies (including Frozen) dominating the box office above it.

If anything OLC has taken the uniformity approach to the extreme. All Animated attractions all the time. The only ride that breaks from that mold is Soaring and that’s a clone.

This doesn’t mean I am not looking forward to it personally, as a worldwide whole it is refreshing to me. But several posters here have very valid criticisms.
 
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Travel Junkie

Well-Known Member
I will say that Tom's was the better of the two by quite a bit. But I will also say that both of them, more shocking for Pete and crew on the DIS Unplugged, simply were lacking in basic knowledge often. Again, I don't want to go soft on Tommy Boi, but he was talking about DLP a place that he just visited for the first time. You wouldn't expect him to know everything. But The DIS was all about WDW largely, with maybe a bit of DLR thrown in. I can't recall as I literally fell asleep in a thunder storm while listening. Basic facts and knowledge seemed to elude this group of what seemed like five dudes doing a show from Pete's house.

I don't have specifics because, frankly, it bored me to tears listening largely. But if this is what your livelihood is, then get your facts straight. Learn what it is you are ranting about because otherwise you just come off so poorly.
I sometimes listen to the DIS and you are right in that they seem to not know nearly as much as they should. On one of their feeds the Dream Unlimited Travel show did episodes on the Asian parks. I was in absolute shock in their analysis. (spoiler alert their biggest praise of Disney Sea was reserved for Aquatopia while for the most part saying they were underwhelmed) They didn't know basic facts like saying there were no Haunted Mansion's in any of the Asian parks while talking about Tokyo Disneyland.

It's hard to take your opinion seriously, if you aren't well informed on the subject you are supposedly an expert on.
 

Disneybear

Active Member
speaking of something terribly dated...
anybody thinking anything is dated should be screaming to yank this, first and foremost

so out-of-step, it's verbal degreadtion is not only condoned, but encouraged - let the old girl rip and use the remaining acres for a new project
I think with the new movie back on that Jungle Cruise will be remaining for the foreseeable. Although there may possibly be some movie tie-in updates depending on the movies success.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Random Spirited Thoughts:

The more this place changes, the more the same old trolls come out from under rocks.

I admit to being a bit torn on the TDS expansion project, but in the end, I favour it ... simply because, as I just told a friend and fellow member of this forum, at the end of the day this is the OLC. Damn near everything they do turns out amazing and they add money for details, they don't constantly chip away at it (like has happened with your beloved Toy Story Kiddieland and Star Wars Franchise Land coming soon to what was TPFKaTD-MGMS). Ultimately, I have faith in the OLC because setting foot in their parks in 2018 still feels like stepping into the MK and EPCOT in the 1980s. In some ways, even better. I'd love for anyone to try and contort themselves into saying any park at WDW that doesn't have animals in the title is actually better than it was at opening or even after 15 years of operation. You can't.

No surprise on Peter Doctor and Jennifer Lee being elevated to basically replace John Lasseter. And they are absolutely the right people for those positions. Pete because he is a legend in his field and has earned it. Jennifer because she is highly talented, not a Burbank lifer and, yeah, directed that little Frozen film. You will not see a drop off in quality under these two at all.

Speaking of which, is it still in vogue in the fan community to take shots at Pixar and openly pull for their films to not be successful? Because they still have a record that is damn near perfect. Only one film, The Good Dinosaur, has lost money. Just one. And one that was troubled from the start and Iger decided it was worth sacrificing to the Star Wars ...now, Disney has put out four SW films and has already had one failure. Just saying ... (some fans would also consider The Last Jedi to be a failure because they didn't like the direction it took. I didn't like it either, but that probably goes without saying.)

Still, keep hearing that WDW (as well as UNI) isn't very crowded at all. I have had people, numerous people, tell me that EPCOT-- in particular -- has been dead. I am not going into deep analysis as to why this might be. Because your thoughts are probably mine. If you want nice dining, nice shopping and music, why would you ever go to EPCOT when you don't have to pay $120 a day to enter Disney Springs? Right, the Sheriff got that project nailed. So much so, that DS is pulling people out of parks.

Ah, so this is the week we start the uncharge parties at Typhoon Lagoon. Is this where I tell you there was a time when the water parks, well, at least RC and TL, had night hours in summer for all people? Nah ...

Besides, aren't we starting MNSSHP right after July 4th now?

Have heard reasons why Phantom Manor is being delayed at DLP until January. Have also heard the changes to the attraction are a bit more substantial than Disney has released. But I was also told if I liked the changes at DLP's Pirates, then I should be OK with the PM changes. We shall see as that is one of my favourite attractions anywhere.

Yes, UNI is purposely delaying Nintendo from being built. Yes, those rumours you have heard about moving it to the third gate (the real one, not the water park) are true. Yes, UNI is still living off of Potter in FL while it opens complete crap like Fallon and Fast and Furious.

Have you heard a peep about SDL expansion plans? Really?

Anyone who looks at the amount of destruction of trees and wetlands at WDW for massive hotel/timeshare projects, infrastructure and wider open spaces in the parks and doesn't feel sad, doesn't get what WDW was for its first three decades at all.

Did y'all happen to notice Danny Cockerell's abrupt resignation from the company? Could it be that Chappie told him that he wouldn't be replacing Queen George after all?

Speaking of which, I just went to the toilet, did EPCOT get a new VP while I was gone?

Anyone know if HEA will be shown again through the Christmas season or if the old and tired Holiday Wishes will return or a new show?

Speaking of entertainment, remember when DAK and DHS had daily parades and the MK had both day and night parades? And how much less did tickets cost then?

Are vinylmations still a thing?

RIP: DD ESPN Zone and Rainforest Cafe. Had some nice meals at both and while losing them isn't a tragedy, this hastily thrown together plan for Anaheim's new hotel and revamped DD doesn't make a lot of sense. BTW, saw some pics of the redone WoD there ... like their design team went to lunch at a Chipotle or Blaze to come up with an idea for how to revamp the place.
 

Sue_Vongello

Well-Known Member
I wouldn’t put them on such a pedestal. The decision making is the same, the circumstances of what is popular in Japan are different. They just don’t like Marvel nearly as much and aren’t license restricted by Universal Japan. Star Wars isn’t nearly as popular with many many animated movies (including Frozen) dominating the box office above it.

If anything OLC has taken the uniformity approach to the extreme. All Animated attractions all the time. The only ride that breaks from that mold is Soaring and that’s a clone.

This doesn’t mean I am not looking forward to it personally, as a worldwide whole it is refreshing to me. But several posters here have very valid criticisms.
Yes you’re right to an extent. Avatar is in the top ten highest grossing movies of all time in Japan yet they aren’t rushing to clone that other there.
 
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