A Law suit against ISTC....

[wdwmagic]

Re: Re: A Law suit against ISTC....

Originally posted by DMC-12
Isnt this suit about Disney not keeping there part of the bargin...

I mean.. if a M:S clone were to be built in another (disney) park ETC has the contract... BUT, I remember reading somewhere that Disney is not honoring that part of the contract anymore, therefore Disney is in breach *allegedly*. And ETC has every right to be angry.

I have to find that older article... *scratches head*

I believe that allegedly Disney consider ETC to be in breach over many aspects during the project, leaving the future clone contracts void.

 

[Testtrack321]

Originally posted by wdwmagic
ETC is not the only company that could have done this. The version of MS planned for Tokyo is to have hardware produced by a Japanese centrifuge company.

Any info on the Japanese version? :lol:

 

[Tim G]

Originally posted by markc
I think you're missing the point with how Mission Space was created. Disney had no idea as to how to execute this idea, hence why they went to ETC. ETC, in return, created a unique system never used before. In many respects, without ETC, Disney would not have the ride they have.

Huh!! Yes they did know how to execute...
There is, and has been a actual size sample in glendale for about 4 years long before ETC stepped in...

The only thing, at that time, was they didn't know who wanted the contract.

But the ride, the design, the lay out and the technical specs (tnx to NASA) on paper...

ETC wanted the deal... they KNEW what was coming...

And yes, indeed M:S is coming to Japan with a japanese company for the centrifuges....

 

[MrNonacho]

Originally posted by Corrus
And yes, indeed M:S is coming to Japan with a japanese company for the centrifuges....

Which park will be getting it?

 

[X2CommNavISTC]

I've heard rumors on that. But nothing official. Can you give me a link or something on where you got that "its coming, no questions asked"?

 

[wdwmagic]

Originally posted by X2CommNavISTC
I've heard rumors on that. But nothing official. Can you give me a link or something on where you got that "its coming, no questions asked"?

There are some people on the forums have info that doesnt come from links

 

[grandmath]

I remember reading an old article about this ETC lawsuit where one of them was claiming MS was going to Tokyo too. So it's pretty much "official". But i am wondering when is this ride slated to open? I bet it will be in Tomorrowland (MK), as it has nothing to do with Disney Sea in theme, which is already getting two new E-Tickets in 2005 and 2006.

 

[DMC-12]

Re: Re: Re: A Law suit against ISTC....

Originally posted by wdwmagic
I believe that allegedly Disney consider ETC to be in breach over many aspects during the project

For Instance.... Like what Steve? ( I am just curious )


*totally allegedly of course* :lol: :wave:

 

[wdwmagic]

Re: Re: Re: Re: A Law suit against ISTC....

Originally posted by DMC-12
For Instance.... Like what Steve? ( I am just curious )


*totally allegedly of course* :lol: :wave:

There have allegedly been various delays in supply of parts, rising budgets beyond agreed amounts, and lots of technical issues that WDI were left to resolve.

Allegedly WDI finished the attraction pretty much on their own.

 

[DMC-12]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Law suit against ISTC....

Originally posted by wdwmagic
There have allegedly been various delays in supply of parts, rising budgets beyond agreed amounts, and lots of technical issues that WDI were left to resolve.

Eeek I did not hear that part of the story, until now.

 

[MrPromey]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Law suit against ISTC....

Originally posted by wdwmagic
There have allegedly been various delays in supply of parts, rising budgets beyond agreed amounts, and lots of technical issues that WDI were left to resolve.

Allegedly WDI finished the attraction pretty much on their own.

Well, if that is the case than Disney is definitely in the clear. Just look at the facts:

1. Disney has nearly 50 years of experience with rides and attractions where as two Disney projects represent pretty much everything ETC has done up to this point.

2. ETC has experience as a government contractor. Everyone here in the US knows that all government contractors are expected to take twice as long, charge twice as much and produce a product that is half as effective as promised. I think that is actually a requirement for the bidding process. ETC was clearly just doing business as usual.

 

[DMC-12]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Law suit against ISTC....

Originally posted by MrPromey
Well, if that is the case than Disney is definitely in the clear. Just look at the facts:

1. Disney has nearly 50 years of experience with rides and attractions where as two Disney projects represent pretty much everything ETC has done up to this point.

2. ETC has experience as a government contractor. Everyone here in the US knows that all government contractors are expected to take twice as long, charge twice as much and produce a product that is half as effective as promised. I think that is actually a requirement for the bidding process. ETC was clearly just doing business as usual.

:lol: Agreed!

Welcome back windbag! :wave:

 

[markc]

Originally posted by MrPromey
Well, from reading their own statement above it seems Disney did have an idea of how to execute the idea because they went to ETC for the use of this pre-existing technology. According to ETC up there this system has been used before in professional training simulators.

I think Steve was accurate in his comparison to ToT because what runs that attraction is not a common mechanical devise that is easily obtainable. The concept of an elevator is obviously not new (any more than a merry-go-round is) but one that operates the way that one does is. How many elevators have you ever seen that go down at speeds faster than that of gravity, jerk quickly quickly up and down and do it nonstop for ten hours or more a day 365 days a year? That ain't no off the shelf system or we'd have seen it in places off Disney property by now.

It was my understanding that technology at that level had not yet been created (i.e. one that was suitable for entertainment purposes). ETC is the only company who had the ability and capacity to create the centrifuges for "industrial" use, let alone for a theme park or anything similar to that. Quite simply, without ETC, Disney would've had to look for a different option for what the Mission Space ride was going to be (which is why Disney took so long in annoucning exactly what this ride would consist of).

With ToT, there are several companies who have the ability to create the ride system that it uses. It wasn't too unique or revolutionary, unlike the one that was used at Mission Space. ToT was simply an elaboration of ride technology that had already been put in place at several amusement/theme parks in the country (such as the "Demon Drop" at Cedar Point).

A lot of you ae Disney enthusiasts to the highest degree, therefore I think some of you have a shaded perspective of who exactly is in the clear in this situation; but looking at it from a strictly business standpoint, it appears Disney isn't being in fair in the way they've handled their relationship with ETC. They've failed to credit them within the ride, and by not marketing their name it seems as if they are trying to create a strongarm on ETC so that they have complete dependency on Disney for any life within the theme park industry. Keep in mind, I think Disney values this ride technology highly, since it is not available at any other park in the world, what-so-ever, so they're keen to keep this strictly to themselves via whatever way possible..even if it means mistreating their supplier.

 

[wdwmagic]

Originally posted by markc
It was my understanding that technology at that level had not yet been created (i.e. one that was suitable for entertainment purposes). ETC is the only company who had the ability and capacity to create the centrifuges for "industrial" use, let alone for a theme park or anything similar to that. Quite simply, without ETC, Disney would've had to look for a different option for what the Mission Space ride was going to be (which is why Disney took so long in annoucning exactly what this ride would consist of).

.

You are mistaken with your understanding.
Mission Space ride system was sorted way before the press announcement. Infact, WDI were working on the centrifuge concept back in at least 1997. The lack of info at the April 20 2000 announcement was purely for marketing reasons. WDI already had a full working mock up of the attraction at that stage. In fact Disney did not officially reveal that Space was to be a centfrifuge until 2003.

There is at least another company in the world (the one being used in MS Tokyo for example) that is and was capable of delivering the centrifuge system. Therefore no involvement of ETC would not have meant that MS could not have gone ahead. It would simply have meant that the centrifuge would have gone to a different company.

So basically WDI could have completed MS without ETC by using an alternative contractor for the centrifuge. However, without WDI, I think it is very safe to say that the contractor could not have delivered MS as we see it today.

 

[wdwmagic]

Originally posted by markc
They've failed to credit them within the ride, and by not marketing their name it seems as if they are trying to create a strongarm on ETC so that they have complete dependency on Disney for any life within the theme park industry. Keep in mind, I think Disney values this ride technology highly, since it is not available at any other park in the world, what-so-ever, so they're keen to keep this strictly to themselves via whatever way possible..even if it means mistreating their supplier.

I would doubt that anywhere in the contracts were signed was there provision for Disney to "market" any suppliers name. It is all part of a supplier partnership that in occurs in many projects, you will get no glory, and your name will not be publically presented. They would have known this prior to entering the contract.

 

[wdwmagic]

Originally posted by markc
Keep in mind, I think Disney values this ride technology highly, since it is not available at any other park in the world, what-so-ever, so they're keen to keep this strictly to themselves via whatever way possible..even if it means mistreating their supplier.

Actually I think Disney are being fair on this. The only restriction is that the contractor cannot supply a multiarm centrifuge to a park within 100 miles of the Disney parks for the next 5 years. Disney know that there are very few companies who could pull of MS, even when working with a contractor for a centrifuge. I believe they also realise that the uses of a centrifuge system are pretty limited beyond a Space attraction that has now been done. While I think the MS ride sysetm is incredible, I do not think we will see it used again at any Disney parks except with clones of MS worldwide.

 

[wdwmagic]

Here are some the Disney views on this subject from http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/stories/2003/09/08/story4.html?page=2

Disney says it quickly learned during construction of the ride that ETC "had only a very limited ability to contribute to engineering for the ride system and provided only minor input on safety issues."

Disney then rolled out a list of charges including claims that ETC acted unprofessionally, failed to submit materials in a timely manner, failed to check measurement tolerances and to comply with deadlines. Disney also charges ETC delivered defective and nonconforming materials, failed to manage the work of subcontractors, failed to provide proper document control and did not provide sufficient numbers of qualified supervisory personnel.

As to the issue of ownership of the ride system, Disney claims ETC and its parent company agreed that the system would "remain the sole and exclusive property of Walt Disney Imagineering."

In addressing the lawsuit's safety issues, Disney notes that, following its own safety testing and hazard analysis, documentation certifying the ride's safety was submitted to the state Bureau of Fair Rides Inspection, which is part of the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services. "Given (Disney's) stellar reputation for safety," says the suit, "ETC can add nothing to the analysis already undertaken and completed."

Disney adds that the company's motion for speedy discovery is "an ill-disguised attempt to get access to Walt Disney Imagineering's intellectual property for commercial and competitive use."

 

[Tim G]

Originally posted by wdwmagic
Here are some the Disney views on this subject from http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/stories/2003/09/08/story4.html?page=2

As to the issue of ownership of the ride system, Disney claims ETC and its parent company agreed that the system would "remain the sole and exclusive property of Walt Disney Imagineering."

As with ALL the projects...

Even the Tokyo projects which are all financed by the Oriental Land Company...

 

[WDWFREAK53]

I would just like to state that I don't think I've ever seen Steve post so much in one thread :lol:

Ok, back to the Mission Space talk

Is the Tokyo version of Mission:Space going to be a clone of Mission:Space or will it use the same type of ride system themed differently? (AKA...Indy vs. Dinosaur)

 

[Al]

Thanks for the info Steve

I think that ETC are making a mistake acting like this, because it will make Disney (or any other theme park company) think twice about using them in the future.