A fix for Genie+

[larryz]

I think people in the Genie+ forum already know how line-skip systems work. I'm not sure what good characterizing them as "stealing time" is going to do.

If nobody was skipping the line, then everybody's getting what they paid for. A 45-minute line is 45 minutes out of everyone's life.
If people are paying to skip the line, that time they save has got to come from someone else who spends longer in line because they go right past them.

Sounds like theft to me. It's not like I got a discount because I have to spend longer in lines. I paid the same as they did to get in the gate.

 

[Naplesgolfer]

If nobody was skipping the line, then everybody's getting what they paid for. A 45-minute line is 45 minutes out of everyone's life.
If people are paying to skip the line, that time they save has got to come from someone else who spends longer in line because they go right past When I pay for global entrythem.

Sounds like theft to me. It's not like I got a discount because I have to spend longer in lines. I paid the same as they did to get in the gate.

You are being a little obtuse on this subject. When I pay for Global Entry or Clear to use a faster line at Airport security, have I stolen your time??

 

[larryz]

You are being a little obtuse on this subject. When I pay for Global Entry or Clear to use a faster line at Airport security, have I stolen your time??

Who's being obtuse? Passenger screening is not why people go to the airport... If you want to pay extra to get thru security ten minutes quicker than I do, that's fine -- we're still getting on the same plane for the same flight. That you get to the gate 10 minutes faster doesn't impinge on my experience of flying from point A to point B.

Your argument reminds me of people who used to gloat about getting FP+ to experience Mickey's Philharmagic.

 

[Chi84]

If nobody was skipping the line, then everybody's getting what they paid for. A 45-minute line is 45 minutes out of everyone's life.
If people are paying to skip the line, that time they save has got to come from someone else who spends longer in line because they go right past them.

Sounds like theft to me. It's not like I got a discount because I have to spend longer in lines. I paid the same as they did to get in the gate.

I understand your point. Skip the line systems are business decisions, just like any other. They may work better for some than others.

My group often consists of two older people and some very young children. It would be very uncomfortable for us to stand in long standby lines all day. We would end up skipping rides with very long lines, which was exactly what we did pre-fastpass well over 20 years ago when we went with my own mother at a time when my children were very young. But WDW was a kinder, gentler, less-expensive experience in those days and there were no alternatives available.

With our current family group composition, we would not visit present-day WDW unless we were guaranteed the opportunity to skip the lines at at least a few of the more desirable rides. We would go somewhere else. That may be fine with you, but it's apparently not fine with Disney. They've made a business decision to appeal to those who will not or cannot stand in long lines all day.

The reality is that all major theme parks, including WDW, have had skip the line systems for many, many years. People are used to them and have come to expect them. You may not like them, but others do.

 

[Naplesgolfer]

Who's being obtuse? Passenger screening is not why people go to the airport... If you want to pay extra to get thru security ten minutes quicker than I do, that's fine -- we're still getting on the same plane for the same flight. That you get to the gate 10 minutes faster doesn't impinge on my experience of flying from point A to point B.

Your argument reminds me of people who used to gloat about getting FP+ to experience Mickey's Philharmagic.

My getting on a WDW ride faster than you doesn't impinge on your ride experience either. While not perfectly analogous in both the plane and the ride getting on faster is better. Security lines can be far longer than 30 minutes at times. Sitting with a drink is clearly a upgrade to standing in a long line. Global entry allows people to breeze through customs once they land and other's are in line for long time, their time wasn't stolen.

 

[larryz]

The reality is that all major theme parks, including WDW, have had skip the line systems for many, many years. People are used to them and have come to expect them. You may not like them, but others do.

Disney's a business, and they have found ways to monetize things they used to supply for free. It is what it is.

My getting on a WDW ride faster than you doesn't impinge on your ride experience either. While not perfectly analogous in both the plane and the ride getting on faster is better.

Guess again. If your expedient entry enables you to enjoy twice as many attractions as I was able to because I was waiting in line behind you, that impinges on the value I receive from the same entry fee we both paid -- with your time-stealer supplement being the enabling difference.

Let's say we both pay $300 to fly from Baltimore to Orlando. You pay $100 per year for expedited security clearance. That means (if that's the only flight you took that year, unlikely) you paid $400 to get to Orlando, while I still only paid $300. But our plane left the gate on time and we both got to Orlando at the same time. No diminished value for either one of us -- you're happy that you got to sit with a drink for 20 minutes while I was waiting for the TSA lady to give me a little tickle and I'm happy I got on my flight to WDW.

Now let's say we each pay $250 to get into the MK for 12 hours. You pay the $30 Genie plus fee and I don't. We each have a minimum expectation of experiencing 8 attractions. But because you paid extra and are able to shorten your wait times considerably, you get to experience 12 attractions while I only get to experience 6 because you paid to get ahead of me and skip the stand-by lines. That's diminished value for me and enhanced value for you since you paid for expedited entry to the attractions at the expense of my time (and that of everyone else you bypassed in the Genie+/ILL line). Limited time in a theme park has value -- you recognize that since you paid extra for shorter lines, with the ultimate effect of making us wait longer. Hence, our time was stolen by Disney and sold to you.

 

[Naplesgolfer]

Disney's a business, and they have found ways to monetize things they used to supply for free. It is what it is.

Guess again. If your expedient entry enables you to enjoy twice as many attractions as I was able to because I was waiting in line behind you, that impinges on the value I receive from the same entry fee we both paid -- with your time-stealer supplement being the enabling difference.

Let's say we both pay $300 to fly from Baltimore to Orlando. You pay $100 per year for expedited security clearance. That means (if that's the only flight you took that year, unlikely) you paid $400 to get to Orlando, while I still only paid $300. But our plane left the gate on time and we both got to Orlando at the same time. No diminished value for either one of us -- you're happy that you got to sit with a drink for 20 minutes while I was waiting for the TSA lady to give me a little tickle and I'm happy I got on my flight to WDW.

Now let's say we each pay $250 to get into the MK for 12 hours. You pay the $30 Genie plus fee and I don't. We each have a minimum expectation of experiencing 8 attractions. But because you paid extra and are able to shorten your wait times considerably, you get to experience 12 attractions while I only get to experience 6 because you paid to get ahead of me and skip the stand-by lines. That's diminished value for me and enhanced value for you since you paid for expedited entry to the attractions at the expense of my time (and that of everyone else you bypassed in the Genie+/ILL line). Limited time in a theme park has value -- you recognize that since you paid extra for shorter lines, with the ultimate effect of making us wait longer. Hence, our time was stolen by Disney and sold to you.

We will just have to agree to disagree on this. See you in line. ( as I pass by)

 

[crazy4disney]

There isn’t enough capacity to handle crowds…it’s a numbers problem - not an IT one.

Blame Iger

I agree & would love to know where the crowds were these past 11 days that i was there bc genie worked great all lines were manageable for those who didnt want to pay for genie and honestly seemed like a perfect day for everyone except for the heat which was expected but dam forgot how hot it was... rain was interesting at times as well lol

 

[larryz]

We will just have to agree to disagree on this. See you in line. ( as I pass by)

Enjoy your ride!

 

[Pepper's Ghost]

Ahhh, I see the selfishness of people has reared it's head in the last several posts. Tough sh** for you, I'm doing what I can to pass you because your time as a human being is worth less. Class warfare at it's best.

 

[Chi84]

Ahhh, I see the selfishness of people has reared it's head in the last several posts. Tough sh** for you, I'm doing what I can to pass you because your time as a human being is worth less. Class warfare at it's best.

Intra-class warfare among the WDW guests.

I'm paying $15 at a Disney park. It's not like I'm Cleopatra being carried above the masses on a palanquin.

 

[SteveAZee]

But at Disney, all they're paying extra for is time -- time they get back by making you wait longer for the attraction. Like you said, they don't get more attraction, they just get it quicker than you do.

Disney is stealing your time and selling it to other people.

It's not a steal, it's a barter/trade/sale. Thought experiment - suppose the LL was open to everyone who enters the park, but Disney would pay people $15/person to wait on the standby line instead. Same general idea.. give up some of your time and you get paid. Sort of like showing up to work each day... give up your time and get some money.

 

[larryz]

It's not a steal, it's a barter/trade/sale. Thought experiment - suppose the LL was open to everyone who enters the park, but Disney would pay people $15/person to wait on the standby line instead. Same general idea.. give up some of your time and you get paid. Sort of like showing up to work each day... give up your time and get some money.

But I'm not getting a trade... I'm paying anywhere from $120 to $150 to get into the park. That's to access all the rides and attractions open to everyone else.

Other people pay Disney extra to skip ahead of me in line. That sounds like they're paying Disney extra to slow down my access so they get more rides than I do, even tho' I paid to have access to them.

Sounds like a steal to me.

 

[Pepper's Ghost]

Intra-class warfare among the WDW guests.

I'm paying $15 at a Disney park. It's not like I'm Cleopatra being carried above the masses on a palanquin.

Yeah, but $15 at a park..... times # of guests in your party..... times # of days you're all there... PLUS ILL purchases each day. Don't minimize it making it sound like $15 total and no big deal. 5 people in your party there for a week? $15x5x7... $525 extra, and that's before you purchase any ILLs which can increase this considerably. Perhaps you ARE Cleopatra being carried above the masses when you have that kind of gold coin laying around in your palanquin cushions!

 

[Jrb1979]

Yeah, but $15 at a park..... times # of guests in your party..... times # of days you're all there... PLUS ILL purchases each day. Don't minimize it making it sound like $15 total and no big deal. 5 people in your party there for a week? $15x5x7... $525 extra, and that's before you purchase any ILLs which can increase this considerably. Perhaps you ARE Cleopatra being carried above the masses when you have that kind of gold coin laying around in your palanquin cushions!

That's nothing. I pay $480 on average for 3 days at Cedar Point for Fastlane. $525 is a drop in the bucket for a week.

 

[Chi84]

Yeah, but $15 at a park..... times # of guests in your party..... times # of days you're all there... PLUS ILL purchases each day. Don't minimize it making it sound like $15 total and no big deal. 5 people in your party there for a week? $15x5x7... $525 extra, and that's before you purchase any ILLs which can increase this considerably. Perhaps you ARE Cleopatra being carried above the masses when you have that kind of gold coin laying around in your palanquin cushions!

Of course you can do that with any expense. A fajita platter at Pecos Bill’s is $15. Everyone in the family of 5 has to eat lunch every day. A resort room is $300/night for 7 nights, etc.

I’m not minimizing the costs involved, and I hate Genie+. I would love to have free FP+ back. But it’s ridiculous to talk in terms of “class warfare” or start labeling people selfish for buying a product that Disney is offering.

A family of 5 visiting WDW for a week is paying a whole lot of money at a very expensive vacation venue. It may be a painful addition to the cost, but so are a lot of other choices that need to be made.

It’s silly to pretend that only the wealthy can afford Genie+. The current problems with it stem from the fact that so many people are buying it that it’s not working as it should. There’s not enough inventory to satisfy the demand. My fear is that Disney’s going to try to solve this problem by raising the price.

 

[Vacationeer]

Not everybody does or expects to do the same amount of attractions per park day. If I only need to average 5 per day to stay content, should I blame people who need at least 8 to be satisfied for ticket price increases? Should I blame WDW veterans and AP holders who figured out how to accomplish the lowest average park per day cost and knew how to most efficiently tour the parks, or blame them for dessert party mania because they paid the least yet regularly took up the best viewing locations? There’s alot more going on here than just wait times. What is totally fair? Each paying for exactly the rides we do, or our seat row at shows, each picture taken and flower smelled…. Even if there was a way to achieve such precise pricing, who’d want it?

I remember first seeing how great the UK deals were. My initial reaction was like ‘Hey! Why do I have to pay so much more?” But there were reasons WDW offered these deals. One likely being that 2 or 3 week UK package visitors didn’t go commando the whole time. The operating cost to host them daily was probably much different than a 2 or 3 day ticket holder squeezing the maximum potential of park hours and offerings. They probably also spent more per capita on shop/dine.

It’s hard for me to articulate. I have no real clue how Disney’s arrives at business decisions. More complicated than just wait times and a $15 line skip cost. How could I blame other visitors for costs within my WDW trip without knowing all the intricacies? The best I can do is decide which trip options interest me and which ones are worth the cost.

 

[crazy4disney]

Yeah, but $15 at a park..... times # of guests in your party..... times # of days you're all there... PLUS ILL purchases each day. Don't minimize it making it sound like $15 total and no big deal. 5 people in your party there for a week? $15x5x7... $525 extra, and that's before you purchase any ILLs which can increase this considerably. Perhaps you ARE Cleopatra being carried above the masses when you have that kind of gold coin laying around in your palanquin cushions!

$16 after tax i had 3 people & used it 10 days & have DAS. This past trip it worked like a charm and worth every single penny especially in the heat & Im far from Cleopatra. As im sure you know Genie s*cked in November but worked perfectly this trip. Once again its about capacity. Crowds were visibly less than November. Dk if that was the sole reason but it helped. Funny sidenote. I set my alarm for the drops & others definitely did as well aa i heard them go off at times in the parks & also heard people discussing it as well. Really wanted to
Ask them if they were on these forums lol

 

[Pepper's Ghost]

Of course you can do that with any expense. A fajita platter at Pecos Bill’s is $15. Everyone in the family of 5 has to eat lunch every day. A resort room is $300/night for 7 nights, etc.

I’m not minimizing the costs involved, and I hate Genie+. I would love to have free FP+ back. But it’s ridiculous to talk in terms of “class warfare” or start labeling people selfish for buying a product that Disney is offering.

A family of 5 visiting WDW for a week is paying a whole lot of money at a very expensive vacation venue. It may be a painful addition to the cost, but so are a lot of other choices that need to be made.

It’s silly to pretend that only the wealthy can afford Genie+. The current problems with it stem from the fact that so many people are buying it that it’s not working as it should. There’s not enough inventory to satisfy the demand. My fear is that Disney’s going to try to solve this problem by raising the price.

I agree that if cheat-the-line is available at a cost, it's not the fault of the guests who buy it. I completely agree with that actually. I can't speak for others, but I personally blame Disney for providing it. It's not an equitable solution after already jacking up prices on everyone. Disney is picking "winners", specifically the more wealthy as opposed to the middle class family. OR, a middle class family can give Disney the extra money they can't afford to give for the experience. The problem is that if everyone buys it, it no longer is an advantage. All you've done is pass through an ala carte price increase.

But I do agree that the guest who purchase it is not to blame. Please don't lose the context of my "selfish" comment. I said it due to some individuals making comments about I'll see you in line as I pass you, or something like that. That's just a sh**ty attitude that shows selfishness.

One last comment, your example of the fajita platter doesn't equate. Fajitas were never free perks before, and the experience has always been that either you get it, or you don't. If you want to equate it to this situation, let's say your $15 fajita platter now costs $23 for everyone, and if you want yours in 10 mins pay an extra $7 and we'll prioritize the making of your platter ahead of those who don't pay the $7 surcharge. So now you get your $30 fajita in 10 mins, and rather than getting mine in 30 mins, I now have to wait 50 mins even though I'm still paying more. I think that better represents what G+ does.... and btw, that would get the same complaints.

 

[larryz]

Not everybody does or expects to do the same amount of attractions per park day. If I only need to average 5 per day to stay content, should I blame people who need at least 8 to be satisfied for ticket price increases? Should I blame WDW veterans and AP holders who figured out how to accomplish the lowest average park per day cost and knew how to most efficiently tour the parks, or blame them for dessert party mania because they paid the least yet regularly took up the best viewing locations? There’s alot more going on here than just wait times. What is totally fair? Each paying for exactly the rides we do, or our seat row at shows, each picture taken and flower smelled…. Even if there was a way to achieve such precise pricing, who’d want it?

I remember first seeing how great the UK deals were. My initial reaction was like ‘Hey! Why do I have to pay so much more?” But there were reasons WDW offered these deals. One likely being that 2 or 3 week UK package visitors didn’t go commando the whole time. The operating cost to host them daily was probably much different than a 2 or 3 day ticket holder squeezing the maximum potential of park hours and offerings. They probably also spent more per capita on shop/dine.

It’s hard for me to articulate. I have no real clue how Disney’s arrives at business decisions. More complicated than just wait times and a $15 line skip cost. How could I blame other visitors for costs within my WDW trip without knowing all the intricacies? The best I can do is decide which trip options interest me and which ones are worth the cost.

All other things being equal, you pay as much as everyone else in your particular category to access the park's attractions. If your value definition is 5 attractions, and you can do that within the time allotted to you at no additional cost, then you're happy and Disney -- well, they don't care that you didn't do more. You've willingly accepted your limitations by not succumbing to their pay-to-play ride-rationing system and Bob and Josh thank you for being so understanding.

IMNSHO, totally fair would be that everyone who pays to get into the park could experience all its attractions for the price of admission alone. But we all know that given the stagnation in attraction development compounded by burgeoning attendance, that just isn't going to be possible.

The only thing we're buying with our admission price is time in the park. That's the product Disney is selling. If we have to spend the vast majority of that time waiting in line behind people who have paid to skip the line, we're sacrificing precious hours of our park access while Disney reaps the money from those who pay them to delay our ride experiences, and those who buy Genie+ get to do more on our time they've purchased.

The other option is to join the usurpers and pay for the line skip privilege -- which may or may not give you what you want, but at least you feel better about your chances of getting it. Good luck getting everything you want at the 7:00 am cattle stampede... and the other drops during the day.

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