50 MAGICal Enhancements for the 50th ...

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
You don't have to talk down to people just because they're younger. I appreciate all the information you share, but just cuz someone is excited about what Disney is doing isn't a reason to act condescending.
@WDW1974 has been known to post snarky responses when debating a topic. However, when I read the thread where you accuse him of being "condescending", I fail to see anything of the sort.

Let's recall the discussion:
Price increases are no different than any other successful theme park. As with preferred parking, or other costs.

Bottom like is the quality of the parks is going up, and will be on par or above on par with what they should be when all is done, so with the obvious price hikes pretty much everyone should be happy that is a Disney vacationer.
No, actually Disney being the big dog sets the market price. And their prices have been rising at an obscene level. WDW vacations in the 1980s and 90s were pricey, but they were not out of reach for most Americans. That is no longer the case. ... And Disney never nickeled an dimed. Parking was 50 cents in the 1970s. Today, preferred parking in those same spots in $40. A bit absurd.

Price hikes are non-stop. Or do you think current pricing will be what you pay when (cue the John Williams Vader march) THE STAR WARS EXPERIENCE debuts?
It's going to continue to rise as with Universal. I don't see your point.

The difference between the two is that Universal was not as good as Disney and Disney stopped with expansions. So now Uni has caught up to Disney pretty much. Park admission and parking are both very expensive.
My point is that Disney has continually driven price increases for the entire industry as the big dog. It isn't like when Disney wasn't doing a damn thing a decade ago that they were dropping prices or leaving them at one level. Disney can set industry standards on pricing. It does that. And WDW is now a very pricey proposition to visit, one that I would say is often not worth it.

But I see you've only been going since 2002, likely as a child, so you don't know what you missed or what true Disney quality is. You know the 21st century vastly overrated and costly WDW product.
Like @David2319, I believe that WDW is on an uptick recently. Despite a few missteps along the way (Seriously, cabanas at the Magic Kingdom?), the parks are trending upward.

However, to @WDW1974's bigger point, this is after more than a decade of decline. This is most objectively demonstrated by looking at Disney's investments in its U.S. theme parks:

Disney Theme Park Growth Capex.jpg


When @WDW1974 wrote:

But I see you've only been going since 2002, likely as a child, so you don't know what you missed or what true Disney quality is.​

I read nothing condescending. Instead, it appears that @WDW1974 is making an assumption based on @David2319's avatar. @WDW1974 is, IMO, trying to curb @David2319's excitement with historical perspective and is suggesting that @David2319's apparent youth is why, as @David2319 wrote, "I don't see your point."
 

bhg469

Well-Known Member
You don't have to talk down to people just because they're younger. I appreciate all the information you share, but just cuz someone is excited about what Disney is doing isn't a reason to act condescending.

Do you also use the word mansplain?

That wasn't condescending at all and if you took offense that is entirely on you.

He is absolutely correct in the decline of service level and increase of prices. I was a lowly employee at a fast food restaurant at the age of 19 when I took my first trip unsupervised with my girlfriend back in the late 90s. It was on the expensive side but again I was making minimum wage and the value was still there. Now I am making a modest salary in my late 30s and I don't have children, my wife and I just cannot find much value at all. The hotels are obscenely priced for the amenities, the parks have been stagnant too long and the food is really down to chili's level at most places.
 
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Mike S

Well-Known Member
As a rule the mansion was meant to be a carbon copy but obviously changes and such were made like anything. (For example some scenes featured in the CA que where turned into formal scenes on the ride in florida)
There's also new scenes entirely.
Do you also use the word mansplain?

That wasn't condescending at all and if you took offense that is entirely in you.

He is absolutely correct in the decline of service level and increase of prices. I was a lowly employee at a fast food restaurant at the age of 19 when I took my first trip unsupervised with my girlfriend back in the late 90s. It was on the expensive side but again I was making minimum wage and the value was still there. Now I am making a modest salary in my late 30s and I don't have children, my wife and I just cannot find much value at all. The hotels are obscenely priced for the amenities, the parks have been stagnant too long and the food is really down to chili's level at most places.
False!!!

The Burgers at Chili's are MUCH better than at WDW :p
 

Daveeeeed

Well-Known Member
@WDW1974 has been known to post snarky responses when debating a topic. However, when I read the thread where you accuse him of being "condescending", I fail to see anything of the sort.

Let's recall the discussion:




Like @David2319, I believe that WDW is on an uptick recently. Despite a few missteps along the way (Seriously, cabanas at the Magic Kingdom?), the parks are trending upward.

However, to @WDW1974's bigger point, this is after more than a decade of decline. This is most objectively demonstrated by looking at Disney's investments in its U.S. theme parks:

View attachment 196196

When @WDW1974 wrote:

But I see you've only been going since 2002, likely as a child, so you don't know what you missed or what true Disney quality is.​

I read nothing condescending. Instead, it appears that @WDW1974 is making an assumption based on @David2319's avatar. @WDW1974 is, IMO, trying to curb @David2319's excitement with historical perspective and is suggesting that @David2319's apparent youth is why, as @David2319 wrote, "I don't see your point."

But to Spirit's point of me being "younger' that is true. But I have done in the thousands of hours of research, and have even profited from Disney's stock. I know pretty much all of the company's history including the parks. I am no different than someone in their 50's that started going to the parks as an adult. I may have not been able to experience "the best days", but even from going to Disneyland Paris... seeing how little crowds affect the service (and BTW their food is much better too), and heck even the Disney Cruise Line seems like old Disney.
 
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Kman101

Well-Known Member
Spirit has his ... way of talking. You just have to roll with it. I used to let it get to me but now I just appreciate his information and know he cares, deeply, but he has a ... brash way of presenting his opinion, but it brings a lot of views and gets people talking. (No politics are involved in my opinion of him,)
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
But to Spirit's point of me being "younger' that is true. But I have done in the thousands of hours of research, and have even profited from Disney's stock. I know pretty much all of the company's history including the parks. I am no different than someone in their 50's that started going to the parks as an adult. I may have not been able to experience it, but even from going to Disneyland Paris... seeing how little crowds affect the service (and BTW their food is much better too), and heck even the Disney Cruise Line seems like old Disney.
I think everyone is entitled to an opinion even if their first trip to WDW was this year. I do think there are times when people are talking specifically about comparing things now to the past where if you didn't experience it you can't really understand the comparison. My first trip was in the 80s as a kid. If someone is talking about WDW in 1975 I have no first hand knowledge of that experience so it's not offensive to me if they tell me I wouldn't understand how things were back then. If someone wants to compare the 90s to today that's in my wheelhouse. It's not really about saying people's opinions are invalid because they are younger it's just that they haven't actually experienced the same things.

Here's a musical analogy. I can very easily debate whether rock albums today are better/worse than albums from the 70s. There's actually an obvious answer there but that's way off topic. What I really have no business debating is whether a rock concert today is better or worse than one from the 70s since I have no experience actually attending a concert in the 70s. My opinion on the music itself is just as valid as anyone else's but I have no leg to stand on comparing the live concert experience. With WDW you can have a valid opinion on ride lineups, ticket prices and possibly even shows (if Martin has an old video it's usually pretty close to actually being there) but it's hard to understand the vibe of the parks, the cleanliness, the way the CMs interacted with guests, etc... In that case it's hard to understand what people are talking about without experiencing it first hand.
 

Daveeeeed

Well-Known Member
I think everyone is entitled to an opinion even if their first trip to WDW was this year. I do think there are times when people are talking specifically about comparing things now to the past where if you didn't experience it you can't really understand the comparison. My first trip was in the 80s as a kid. If someone is talking about WDW in 1975 I have no first hand knowledge of that experience so it's not offensive to me if they tell me I wouldn't understand how things were back then. If someone wants to compare the 90s to today that's in my wheelhouse. It's not really about saying people's opinions are invalid because they are younger it's just that they haven't actually experienced the same things.

Here's a musical analogy. I can very easily debate whether rock albums today are better/worse than albums from the 70s. There's actually an obvious answer there but that's way off topic. What I really have no business debating is whether a rock concert today is better or worse than one from the 70s since I have no experience actually attending a concert in the 70s. My opinion on the music itself is just as valid as anyone else's but I have no leg to stand on comparing the live concert experience. With WDW you can have a valid opinion on ride lineups, ticket prices and possibly even shows (if Martin has an old video it's usually pretty close to actually being there) but it's hard to understand the vibe of the parks, the cleanliness, the way the CMs interacted with guests, etc... In that case it's hard to understand what people are talking about without experiencing it first hand.
Very true. I know in the past it was better though for sure.

Lower prices, fewer people, better service, and old EPCOT kind of make it pretty obvious that the past at WDW was far superior.

I can't understand how it was to walk around, but I can still comment on things of the past. It's like just because I haven't been to Mysterious Island at Tokyo doesn't mean that I cannot say it has a wonderful theme that works, it has an epic amount of rockwork, and the rides are top notch. Same goes if I haven't gone to Disneyland Paris. But if you really want the feel of the park that's different, but if I was to comment on the service yes, through other people's information.
I'd argue that Disneyland Paris is the most beautiful park outside of Tokyo DisneySEA. And while I have not been to Hong Kong, Shanghai, etc. it's still an informed opinion. Although obviously if someone actually went to all of those parks their unbiased opinion is more valid.
 
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ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
Here's a musical analogy. I can very easily debate whether rock albums today are better/worse than albums from the 70s. There's actually an obvious answer there but that's way off topic. What I really have no business debating is whether a rock concert today is better or worse than one from the 70s since I have no experience actually attending a concert in the 70s. My opinion on the music itself is just as valid as anyone else's but I have no leg to stand on comparing the live concert experience. With WDW you can have a valid opinion on ride lineups, ticket prices and possibly even shows (if Martin has an old video it's usually pretty close to actually being there) but it's hard to understand the vibe of the parks, the cleanliness, the way the CMs interacted with guests, etc... In that case it's hard to understand what people are talking about without experiencing it first hand.
I'd compare the early days of Walt Disney World to Beatlemania, which I am too young to remember. I can be told about it but I'll never truly "get it".

It's like the story I've told about the opening of Star Wars in 1977.

I remember being dragged to an opening day (not the opening day, May 25, 1977, which was only a limited engagement) 10 AM showing of Star Wars at my local theater by my brother-in-law (a Sci Fi fanatic).

I said no one goes to a movie at 10 in the morning, didn't even know they showed movies at 10 AM. My brother-in-law told me I didn't understand, this was a special showing. He said this movie was going to be big, really big. There were maybe 20-30 people in the theater. This was back in the days when movie theaters were large with hundreds of seats per screen.

The opening music was cool, I was absolutely wowed by the size of the first Star Destroyer, but what was it with all these robots. Where are the people? I didn't even begin to warm up to the movie until Luke finally appeared on the screen.

We stayed for 3 showings that day. Even in the days before cell phones, word got out quickly. I remember people on pay phones (remember those?) calling their friends to come to the theater. The last showing we stayed for was packed.

I've never attended another showing that could ever touch the magic of that first day. Those who have grown up in the post Star Wars era can't really fathom what it was like, especially in the early to mid 1970s, when movies (except Disney movies which really stunk in the 1970s) were targeted for adult audiences and nearly always were depressing to watch. (Just think Chinatown, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Three Days of the Condor, etc.) Even early blockbusters (e.g. The Godfather, Jaws, and Rocky) were cerebral, lots of gritty dialog targeted for mature audiences.

Star Wars completely changed the movie going experience. At the time, it felt like all other movies before it lacked the one thing Star Wars had an abundance of: joy.

Star Wars was the first "fun" movie I ever watched. It's a feeling that's impossible to explain to those who did not experience the 1970s and did not see Star Wars during its initial run.
 
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ElvisMickey

Well-Known Member
How amazing would it be if they actually put the Main Street shops back together like they originally were (penny arcade, cinema) instead of the one long stretch of Disney Store that it's become...loaded with the same crap that you can find in any other store on property. Wishful thinking. Oh well, there's always Diagon Alley ha ha...
 

Goob

Well-Known Member
Oh, I couldn't agree more!!! I say this every time we go to the Magic Kingdom. When I was a kid, 1980-1990, the first stop I made in the MK was the magic/mask shop. I wish I could remember the name. It was one of my most favorite things about the Magic Kingdom.

Edit: it was called "House of Magic"
 
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tirian

Well-Known Member
I keep meaning to start a nostalgia thread with scans and quotes from an old Birnbaum's guide to WDW. The variety of attractions, food, and shopping was staggering until about 1997.


Funny to see you mention the 50 cent parking in the 1970s. A cousin of mine sent me a pair of parking stubs from 1973 (looks like they are date stamped in April 1973), and parking was 50 cents - 48 cents plus 2 cents state tax!

My first trip was in 1978, then every couple of years after that. There is no way, even with inflation, based on what our family had for income, that we would have been able to take those same trips now. I'm very fortunate, and work very hard, so I'm able to travel more frequently with my own family, but prices are now only mildly palatable due to DVC and AP discounts. Actually not doing the parks this year, and will instead enjoy some DVC time at Vero (hopefully! Have never been there, but it looks/sounds nice).

I think everyone is entitled to an opinion even if their first trip to WDW was this year. I do think there are times when people are talking specifically about comparing things now to the past where if you didn't experience it you can't really understand the comparison. My first trip was in the 80s as a kid. If someone is talking about WDW in 1975 I have no first hand knowledge of that experience so it's not offensive to me if they tell me I wouldn't understand how things were back then. If someone wants to compare the 90s to today that's in my wheelhouse. It's not really about saying people's opinions are invalid because they are younger it's just that they haven't actually experienced the same things.

Here's a musical analogy. I can very easily debate whether rock albums today are better/worse than albums from the 70s. There's actually an obvious answer there but that's way off topic. What I really have no business debating is whether a rock concert today is better or worse than one from the 70s since I have no experience actually attending a concert in the 70s. My opinion on the music itself is just as valid as anyone else's but I have no leg to stand on comparing the live concert experience. With WDW you can have a valid opinion on ride lineups, ticket prices and possibly even shows (if Martin has an old video it's usually pretty close to actually being there) but it's hard to understand the vibe of the parks, the cleanliness, the way the CMs interacted with guests, etc... In that case it's hard to understand what people are talking about without experiencing it first hand.

Very true. I know in the past it was better though for sure.

Lower prices, fewer people, better service, and old EPCOT kind of make it pretty obvious that the past at WDW was far superior.

I can't understand how it was to walk around, but I can still comment on things of the past. It's like just because I haven't been to Mysterious Island at Tokyo doesn't mean that I cannot say it has a wonderful theme that works, it has an epic amount of rockwork, and the rides are top notch. Same goes if I haven't gone to Disneyland Paris. But if you really want the feel of the park that's different, but if I was to comment on the service yes, through other people's information.
I'd argue that Disneyland Paris is the most beautiful park outside of Tokyo DisneySEA. And while I have not been to Hong Kong, Shanghai, etc. it's still an informed opinion. Although obviously if someone actually went to all of those parks their unbiased opinion is more valid.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
Rather than bump an old thread, I'll bring up this post from Lee from 2014:
Ok.
I wasn't gonna put this out there, but what the hell...

Two pieces of concept art. One for the Rat ride, the other for an as yet un-built country.
Which one does Epcot need more?
Which one better fits with the mission and purpose of Epcot?

How you answer that will determine whether or not you "get" Epcot.

I also have a feeling opinions may be skewed a bit by age....

(Enjoy the photo. Good chance I'll get told to pull it.)

View attachment 53414

View attachment 53415
 

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