On layoffs, very bad attendance, and Iger's legacy being one of disgrace

[lazyboy97o]

Its almost like they should take a note from the regional parks that many Disney fans hate on. When Cedar Point adds new attractions they look for rides that have high hourly capacity. As well as adding in a lot more family rides. Its nice having Matt Ouimet as the CEO of Cedar Fair. If only Disney had some one like that. Oh wait he did work from them once. Instead they went with Lex Luthor to lead the charge.

No, Disney should not take a note from the regional parks. The regional parks couldn’t match Disney is terms of experience and service. Most started off as theme parks and ended up transitioning to amusement parks because they fell into being too focused on hard numbers (that were exacerbated by Wynn’s pricing model).

High capacity for a regional park can be middling capacity for a Disney parks and is almost exclusively the domain of large steel coasters.

Ouimet hasn’t been CEO since 2017. He is executive chairman of the board.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Is that a Disney problem or a problem with the entire economic system over roughly the past 40 years, though?

As a customer, I don't like much of what has been happening with the parks including the increased crowding and greater difficulty to experience all the attractions. However, in the context of this discussion, I find it hard to see how this has left them in a worse position than had they not pursued a growth-driven strategy. To a significant degree this is because Disney is a publicly-traded company and the entire economic system has been built on endless growth. In that environment, the only real possibility I can imagine in which the current situation would have had less of an impact on Disney is if the parks were either more marginal to the company's overall operations or had been sold off.

Disney being publicly traded isn’t something new. The decision to cut the experience and squeeze for growth was the result of people with a retail background who didn’t know, understand or like the parks viewing them as “a business is a business” and not knowing their unique qualities and challenges. Disney’s costs to build and operate have spiraled out of control while they offer less.

 

[MonorailCoral]

Disney being publicly traded isn’t something new. The decision to cut the experience and squeeze for growth was the result of people with a retail background who didn’t know, understand or like the parks viewing them as “a business is a business” and not knowing their unique qualities and challenges. Disney’s costs to build and operate have spiraled out of control while they offer less.

Would it be fair to say that we can pinpoint the beginning of this as when they decided to turn 20,000 Leagues into a forest on the MK map?

 

[1HAPPYGHOSTHOST]

Based on the timing, a spoonful of sugar.

But did it still go down in the most delightful way?

 

[Jrb1979]

No, Disney should not take a note from the regional parks. The regional parks couldn’t match Disney is terms of experience and service. Most started off as theme parks and ended up transitioning to amusement parks because they fell into being too focused on hard numbers (that were exacerbated by Wynn’s pricing model).

High capacity for a regional park can be middling capacity for a Disney parks and is almost exclusively the domain of large steel coasters.

Ouimet hasn’t been CEO since 2017. He is executive chairman of the board.

I have had just as good of an experience and service at Cedar Point then I have had at Disney. Its funny how quick people will defend Disney for anything they do.

 

[doctornick]

Disney spent billions to (rather successfully) drive down expectations of attractions per guest per hour well below industry standards, intentionally increasing crowding and making it an expectation. They cut away at the business to generate “growth”. The parks were designed for less attendance with more offerings but those numbers just don’t work anymore. It’s not that they didn’t prepare for a pandemic, it’s that they’ve remained committed to Pressler’s business model that is more susceptible to the volatilities of the industry.

How are they more susceptible to volatilities? Honest question, I don't see how it follows.

 

[hopemax]

Disney being publicly traded isn’t something new. The decision to cut the experience and squeeze for growth was the result of people with a retail background who didn’t know, understand or like the parks viewing them as “a business is a business” and not knowing their unique qualities and challenges. Disney’s costs to build and operate have spiraled out of control while they offer less.

Would it be fair to say that we can pinpoint the beginning of this as when they decided to turn 20,000 Leagues into a forest on the MK map?

I thought it started when Judson Green "cut something, to add something" replaced Richard Nunis as head of Attractions in 1991. When Paul Pressler was still in his retail "lane."

 

[MonorailCoral]

Would it be fair to say that we can pinpoint the beginning of this as when they decided to turn 20,000 Leagues into a forest on the MK map?

I thought it started when Judson Green "cut something, to add something" replaced Richard Nunis as head of Attractions in 1991. When Paul Pressler was still in his retail "lane."

I mean in terms of actually executing the removal of an experience and without lining up an immediate, ~one-for-one replacement. Has that ever substantially happened among anywhere in the Parks division before 20KLUTS?

 

[lazyboy97o]

Would it be fair to say that we can pinpoint the beginning of this as when they decided to turn 20,000 Leagues into a forest on the MK map?

No, the start really goes back even before Wells died. Eisner had this belief that an executive is an executive and could run any business. He also started the unsustainable growth goals that would really collide with his views of executives with Paul Pressler.

Prior to the mid-90s, the Disney parks were viewed in a more holistic manner. What was most important is if Walt Disney World was profitable. This is why things like the Antique Story in Liberty Square to exist. It was there for the atmosphere and what it lacked in sales were made up elsewhere. This occurred across the property where something would be sort of loss leaders to create a strong impression of value and experience. The 90s saw a shift to a more mall-based retail model where every square foot was assessed for its profitability.

I have had just as good of an experience and service at Cedar Point then I have had at Disney. Its funny how quick people will defend Disney for anything they do.

That people have a good time at Cedar Point is not in dispute or really relevant. Theme parks are a distinct type of amusement park and different scales of visitation require different strategies.

How are they more susceptible to volatilities? Honest question, I don't see how it follows.

The business has shifted now to focus more on providing “value” to deal with crowds that were assumed as a baseline instead of the base experience. As soon as there are fewer people it’s easier to notice that there is not much to do and no incentive to buy access to something that promises a respite from the crowds.

That particular poster will lead the torch and pitchfork mob ripping apart Disney daily but then turn around say places like Dollywood aren't as good, when in fact they are better in many ways than stale WDW. You'll learn to ignore the opinion of "those" folks. They offer nothing but pretentious unfounded commentary on things they have no knowledge of.

Are you admitting to violating site rules and having multiple accounts? But good job on a nonsense example as Herschend has been my go-to example for Disney’s out of control costs for awhile now.

 

[lewisc]

Would it be fair to say that we can pinpoint the beginning of this as when they decided to turn 20,000 Leagues into a forest on the MK map?

The forest was an improvement. Wasn't it closed for years? Didn't they use a small part for a meet and greet? Ariel?

 

[tirian]

The rate of climb since 2000 is actually much higher for tickets and food than hotels. Hotels - thoug ridiculous - were closer to the “ceiling” - adjusted for inflation from that period. If that makes sense.

A room at the poly that was $289-$400 then Is like $400-550 now.

What a steal

Those rooms were often 25%–35% off back then. Remember the Bounceback rates?

Also, I priced a week’s stay at the Contemporary right before all this happened, and for the time of year, it was $700/night. Your rate of $400 would’ve definitely been a steal!

 

[KaliSplash]

I have had just as good of an experience and service at Cedar Point then I have had at Disney. Its funny how quick people will defend Disney for anything they do.

I take it you are a roller coaster person

 

[tirian]

Again, though, what should Disney have done to prepare for the current global pandemic? What advice from experienced hands were they ignoring or not getting?

I don't mean to be argumentative, I just get a little frustrated when there are these assertions of a common sense that's never articulated. As best as I can tell, the current situation wouldn't be indicating to Disney executives that they should have been building more attractions and keeping prices reasonable. It would be making them think that perhaps Steve Jobs had a point that they should get rid of the parks. The only point against that is that they seem to have used the profits to diversify the company enough that a catastrophic scenario in which the parks have to close entirely doesn't wipe out their profits.

No worries, I know we’re just discussing things.

I think the big issues before Covid were (1) parks were often busy even though attendance was essentially flat*, (2) Disney had already cut lots of entertainment and parades simply to boost quarterly numbers, (3) resorts were already playing the Room Rate Shuffle to compensate for being overpriced, and (4) there were murmurs throughout the travel industry that Guest satisfaction had tanked (“overwhelming” and “overpriced” were the two most-cited words for over a year).

But I’m just sipping wine and having a conversation with you. This is all moot. At this point, none of that matters anymore.

*thanks to FP+

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Those rooms were often 25%–35% off back then. Remember the Bounceback rates?

Also, I priced a week’s stay at the Contemporary right before all this happened, and for the time of year, it was $700/night. Your rate of $400 would’ve definitely been a steal!

Promos are a different story.

You can only effectively compare base prices.

The menu prices are ridiculous and inflexible. Hotel prices are high but subject to variable promos.

Tickets are the best...they would want $1,200 for the platinum pass I used 4 times in 2018.

What did I pay, say you? $550 DVC promo in 2017.

 

[MonorailCoral]

I mean in terms of actually executing the removal of an experience and without lining up an immediate, ~one-for-one replacement. Has that ever substantially happened among anywhere in the Parks division before 20KLUTS?

Would it be fair to say that we can pinpoint the beginning of this as when they decided to turn 20,000 Leagues into a forest on the MK map?

No, the start really goes back even before Wells died. Eisner had this belief that an executive is an executive and could run any business. He also started the unsustainable growth goals that would really collide with his views of executives with Paul Pressler.

See my above quote...Regardless of who was in what suit, prior to 20KLUTS, was there any substantial experience among all the parks actually removed without a ~one-for-one replacement already lined up?

The forest was an improvement. Wasn't it closed for years? Didn't they use a small part for a meet and greet? Ariel?

"Grotto" of some sort, or something...Certainly not one-for-one until Big Thunder Dwarf Railroad showed up.

 

[tirian]

Promos are a different story.

You can only effectively compare base prices.

The menu prices are ridiculous and inflexible. Hotel prices are high but subject to variable promos.

Tickets are the best...they would want $1,200 for the platinum price I used 4 times in 2018.

What did I pay, say you? $550 DVC promo in 2017.

However, you do have to look at the discounted prices because back in the 2000s, almost nobody paid rack rates for deluxe resorts—and I’m only using the word “almost” to cover my butt. DRC cast would’ve told you that nobody paid rack rate at all. They were priced to be discounted, like the merch at Kohl’s.

I do agree that on paper, using the facts we have, inflation is higher for the parks. I’m simply pointing out reality was a bit more complicated than the official numbers.

 

[MonorailCoral]

Yes and believe it or not, none of the coasters at Disney are worth anything.....despite their "ornate" themes. Every coaster at SeaWorld, for example, is better than every attempt of a coaster at WDW.

But do they Disco?

 

[tirian]

Promos are a different story.

You can only effectively compare base prices.

The menu prices are ridiculous and inflexible. Hotel prices are high but subject to variable promos.

Tickets are the best...they would want $1,200 for the platinum price I used 4 times in 2018.

What did I pay, say you? $550 DVC promo in 2017.

Also, YES, tickets are completely out of control. I let my AP lapse last year because I realized I’d have to forgo other trips and focus on Disney to get my money’s worth. That’s not worth it to me.

 

[tirian]

Disney spent billions to (rather successfully) drive down expectations of attractions per guest per hour well below industry standards, intentionally increasing crowding and making it an expectation. They cut away at the business to generate “growth”. The parks were designed for less attendance with more offerings but those numbers just don’t work anymore. It’s not that they didn’t prepare for a pandemic, it’s that they’ve remained committed to Pressler’s business model that is more susceptible to the volatilities of the industry.

...a business model which was based on selling plush toys to DL APs.

Really!!!

I don’t think most fans realize that.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Yes and believe it or not, none of the coasters at Disney are worth anything.....despite their "ornate" themes. Every coaster at SeaWorld, for example, is better than every attempt of a coaster at WDW.

Sea world are all B&Ms...which I enjoy.

Busch has Montu...one of my alltime favorites.

Disney’s little zippers are fine...you go for the theme and the total ambience. Fine for what they are.