News Reedy Creek Improvement District and the Central Florida Tourism Oversight District

[lazyboy97o]

It's hard because it's true Disney, or any corporation, shouldn't have this much power. I absolutely agree and think so.

What power is so untoward, particularly in the context of Florida?

 

[Karakasa]

What power is so untoward, particularly in the context of Florida?

There's just something... I don't know, unsettling about a corporation being able to essentially have a huge level of control for an area the size of a city, and sort of subtly manipulate the voters by only letting people who agree to vote the way they want them to live there. But I'm just suspicious of corporations in general, even those whose products or art I like. In the context of Florida, I guess I wasn't really aware there were a lot of other districts like this throughout the state until this topic. I will admit that perhaps my knowledge on it isn't as much as it should be, and if I've spoken out of turn, my bad.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Which is the exact goals that were laid out in the Reedy Creek charter.

The district has lived up to the exact goals outline in the reedy creek charter

The district may very well have lived up to the goals of its charter, but the charter did not live up to the goals for which it was passed.

 

[JoeCamel]

There's just something... I don't know, unsettling about a corporation being able to essentially have a huge level of control for an area the size of a city, and sort of subtly manipulate the voters by only letting people who agree to vote the way they want them to live there. But I'm just suspicious of corporations in general, even those whose products or art I like. In the context of Florida, I guess I wasn't really aware there were a lot of other districts like this throughout the state until this topic. I will admit that perhaps my knowledge on it isn't as much as it should be, and if I've spoken out of turn, my bad.

Disney jumps through hoops to develop and operate their property the same as other places. Different hoops for different places but that was the point of RCID to streamline development and speed the flow of dollars into Florida. It is not a kingdom no matter what the advertising says so they don't have carte blanche....

 

[Karakasa]

Disney jumps through hoops to develop and operate their property the same as other places. Different hoops for different places but that was the point of RCID to streamline development and speed the flow of dollars into Florida. It is not a kingdom no matter what the advertising says so they don't have carte blanche....

I see. It always came across to me that the tradeoff was they could build or do whatever they wanted (within Florida law) in RCID in exchange for having to pay for the water treatment and other such upkeep of infrastructure. And obviously yeah they still have to file permits but the thing is, the group filing the permits is essentially also under control of the same group approving them. But, is that not actually the case?

 

[peter11435]

The district may very well have lived up to the goals of its charter, but the charter did not live up to the goals for which it was passed.

I think you’re misunderstanding why the charter was passed

 

[The Empress Lilly]

They approved it for the tourism and jobs - not because they wanted a new city. They knew they were getting a disneyland east and a promise to redevelop the property in ways that would benefit the entire area - not just disney. And for that rcid has served it’s charter well. Which is why it has received praise each time it was studied.

It is my understanding that the charter was presented by Disney as necessary to develop an experimental city with permanent residents. For tourism development - of which Florida back then posseded plenty - no autonomy of this scale is needed.

It is quite possible and perhaps plausible that even without any intention to develop a city Disney could have extracted the same concessions, for indeed the promise of extensive economic boost. But the district wasn't presented as such.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

It's hard because it's true Disney, or any corporation, shouldn't have this much power. I absolutely agree and think so. But the right thing can be being done for the wrong reason and, in the process, do more harm than good - both immediate, and as precedent. Disney should not be losing this because they used their First Amendment rights. You can't simply examine it materially outside of the political reasoning, as the reasons for it will have material effects going forward as well. It'll say: if a politician doesn't like something someone (like it or not- I sure don't- corporations are considered persons by the law) says, they can indirectly punish them for that in some other way with no backlash or checks. That sort of precedent-setting is as important in the executive branch as it is in courts or legislature - especially if the person behind it is eying the presidency.

And you certainly understand the motivation isn't proper as you said yourself. So, that's, well that. Some things can't be divorced from the politics behind them, especially when, you know, the government's involved.

There's the way it's being done, as well, and immediately saddling Floridians with 2b in extra taxes for the express upkeep of WDW's out-of-park infrastructure is... not great. I'm sure there's a way to dissolve it and make Disney foot the bill still. But it's clear DeSantis is doing this entirely as "punishment for supporting LGBT rights" reasons to show-off to his constituents and potential presidential candidacy voters, and not the "corporation oligarchy bad" reasons you or I think it should be done. So as a result, he's just going ahead and, well, doing it. It certainly mirrors a lot of the other bills he's backed, knowing they likely will get struck down in court, but looking tough on "wokeness" or what have you is more important for his ambitions.

I hope I haven't gotten too political here, incidentally, but like I said, I think this is one issue you just can't talk about without examining the politics behind it. Plenty of others around WDW that you can connect to politics but needn't bring them up, but this isn't one of them. I also hope I haven't come across as incindiary, I really am just trying to explain things as best I can, and I apologize if I seem too mean or preachy.

There's very little I disagree with. Thanks for the good read.

 

[UNCgolf]

It is my understanding that the charter was presented by Disney as necessary to develop an experimental city with permanent residents. For tourism development - of which Florida back then posseded plenty - no autonomy of this scale is needed.

It is quite possible and perhaps plausible that even without any intention to develop a city Disney could have extracted the same concessions, for indeed the promise of extensive economic boost. But the district wasn't presented as such.

Central Florida was essentially an empty swamp at the time, though. Florida tourism was centered around people going to the beaches.

It's basically the only reason Orlando exists as a city.

 

[lazyboy97o]

There's just something... I don't know, unsettling about a corporation being able to essentially have a huge level of control for an area the size of a city, and sort of subtly manipulate the voters by only letting people who agree to vote the way they want them to live there. But I'm just suspicious of corporations in general, even those whose products or art I like. In the context of Florida, I guess I wasn't really aware there were a lot of other districts like this throughout the state until this topic. I will admit that perhaps my knowledge on it isn't as much as it should be, and if I've spoken out of turn, my bad.

The things the corporation de facto controls are things like the sewers. Sure, it’s something the counties could control but is it worth the time and effort for the county to control such things? What do the local governments lose by letting The District have such powers? Part of the whole problem with this ordeal is the assumption that Disney has these vast, unusual powers, being described as a sort of Vatican that implies it is outside not just local but also state purview when it is not.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

The things the corporation de facto controls are things like the sewers. Sure, it’s something the counties could control but is it worth the time and effort for the county to control such things? What do the local governments lose by letting The District have such powers? Part of the whole problem with this ordeal is the assumption that Disney has these vast, unusual powers, being described as a sort of Vatican that implies it is outside not just local but also state purview when it is not.

But if these powers are irrelevant, then why care either way? Just paint those sewers in rainbow colours and let DeSantis take care of them from now on.

 

[flynnibus]

It is my understanding that the charter was presented by Disney as necessary to develop an experimental city with permanent residents. For tourism development - of which Florida back then posseded plenty - no autonomy of this scale is needed.

The counties at the time did not have the capacity and resources to handle the kind of initiatives in front of them and they knew it. The new administrative entity would allow disney to fund and streamline the things needed. They were sold on the idea that disney wanted to be progressive and innovative and doing so within the new unit would allow those things to be done with limited exposure.

They were convinced the arrangement was beneficial to them and Florida- which is also the finding of the state supreme court case that validated the public purpose of their bond authority.

The biggest advantage and reasoning behind it all was the responsible development of what was otherwise useless land in the area along with creating opportunity for the region.

Disney had clear self serving motivation to create rcid - but they have not abused that autonomy and rcid has been well administered

 

[JoeCamel]

I see. It always came across to me that the tradeoff was they could build or do whatever they wanted (within Florida law) in RCID in exchange for having to pay for the water treatment and other such upkeep of infrastructure. And obviously yeah they still have to file permits but the thing is, the group filing the permits is essentially also under control of the same group approving them. But, is that not actually the case?

If you mean under state oversight then yes both OC and RCID are ultimately policed by the state.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I see. It always came across to me that the tradeoff was they could build or do whatever they wanted (within Florida law) in RCID in exchange for having to pay for the water treatment and other such upkeep of infrastructure. And obviously yeah they still have to file permits but the thing is, the group filing the permits is essentially also under control of the same group approving them. But, is that not actually the case?

You have to consider context. When the District was established not only was there no statewide building code, local governments were themselves not required by the state to adopt or enforce a building code. It was a few years after the District was established that the state began to require local governments to adopt and enforce a building code. While no other local governments chose to adopt it, one of the four model codes approved by the state for local governments to adopt was the EPCOT Building Code.

It was not until after Hurricane Andrew that the state began the nearly decade long process of researching, crafting and ultimately enforcing a single state building code, ending the era of local governments choosing among different codes. The EPCOT Building Code survived that process, not being called out as deficient by the commission that was established to study the state’s codes which found the then present system lacking and recommended replacement. But as state law, the Florida Building Code is still a minimum standard to which the District and the EPCOT Building Code must adhere.

The Reedy Creek Improvement District Board of Supervisors are those who are chosen by Disney, but the District itself still has its own full time professional bureaucracy. Tim from the Polynesian accounting office doesn’t moonlight as a plan reviewer. People are hired for those jobs just like any other local government and you’re not going to attract people if working for the District is a dead end because they don’t take their job seriously. Disney and the District are also aware that being lax on regulation and enforcement would put the District at risk. Of the local building authorities, the Reedy Creek Improvement District has a reputation for being incredibly strict.

 

[JoeCamel]

But as state law, the Florida Building Code is still a minimum standard

I don't think people understand how little the code really requires. In most cases it is cost effective to build to a higher standard than code. Cheaper to design and build than go back and repair.

 

[lazyboy97o]

For tourism development - of which Florida back then posseded plenty - no autonomy of this scale is needed.

Orange and Osceola County most certainly did not possess plenty of tourism.

But if these powers are irrelevant, then why care either way? Just paint those sewers in rainbow colours and let DeSantis take care of them from now on.

They’re not irrelevant to those who rely on them.

You seem to be under the impression that without Reedy Creek Improvement District that infrastructure and land development would be controlled by the state. That is not the case. The powers exercised by the District are local powers. Funding and management would have all had to have been managed by the counties which were not major tourism destinations or even home to major economic centers.

 

[JoeCamel]

Orange and Osceola County most certainly did not possess plenty of tourism.


They’re not irrelevant to those who rely on them.

You seem to be under the impression that without Reedy Creek Improvement District that infrastructure and land development would be controlled by the state. That is not the case. The powers exercised by the District are local powers. Funding and management would have all had to have been managed by the counties which were not major tourism destinations or even home to major economic centers.

Counties which at the time were mostly orange groves and cattle ranches. Not much experience in theme park building but TWDC brought that experience with them from California.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

The things the corporation de facto controls are things like the sewers. Sure, it’s something the counties could control but is it worth the time and effort for the county to control such things? What do the local governments lose by letting The District have such powers? Part of the whole problem with this ordeal is the assumption that Disney has these vast, unusual powers, being described as a sort of Vatican that implies it is outside not just local but also state purview when it is not.

First it's the sewers and then it's the entire country!

 

[lazyboy97o]

I don't think people understand how little the code really requires. In most cases it is cost effective to build to a higher standard than code. Cheaper to design and build than go back and repair.

I wouldn’t say little. Doing the bare minimum might not give you the best building, and in certain conditions you won’t be able to get insurance, but the codes have made buildings safer. Florida’s specific amendments, particularly things like the Florida Product Approval add a level of restriction.

 

[GoofGoof]

Is this Disney's first counterpunch, or just a coincidence?

Walt Disney Imagineering Move to Lake Nona Delayed to 2026​

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The Walt Disney Company has delayed their plan to move Walt Disney Imagineering, consumer products, and other departments to Lake Nona until mid-2026. The move was previously planned to be completed next year, 2023.​

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This announcement came at an all-hands-on-deck meeting today. Some employees were already searching for homes and are understandably upset about the delay because they had already sold their California homes.​

https://*****.com/2022/06/walt-disney-imagineering-move-to-lake-nona-delayed-to-mid-2026/

Could be. They may have to eat some cost for the facility if they pull out, but it would be a huge bargaining chip. Losing over $2B over a 10 year period in salaries alone is a big blow to the local and state economy let alone the ancillary, trickle down benefits. Would be a huge blow to the people pushing this. For those questioning why the state would have to negotiate with Disney and come up with a solution that satisfies them….I present exhibit A. If Florida loses those stable, high paying jobs over this political stunt we all know who the blame falls squarely on. Add in a recession that hammers the travel and tourism industry and that’s a recipe for disaster. Local homeowners will be devastated too as home values plummet.