Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[Casper Gutman]

The big difference between Comcast and Disney is that Comcast doesn't have a history of going above and beyond...Disney does.

Yup. Comcast will never have Disney’s great history. Even the history of Universal as a studio, while very long and fascinating, is that of a traditionally second-tier filmmaking enterprise.

And Comcast will never have Disney’s brand. But Disney thinks this means they can endlessly batter and diminish that brand without causing permanent harm. They’re wrong, but they probably won’t learn that until after Chapek is gone.

 

[pdude81]

I just had a discussion on this matter over in the Genie petition thread. A lot of people still feel the Disney iconography makes WDW the only valid vacation choice and reject Uni because they don’t like the brands or because of the outdated notion that it’s a thrill park - or simply because rejecting Uni is what Disney fans are supposed to do.

WDW will still fill up, but the brand is being weakened.

Personally, I’m extremely happy that Uni has stepped up its game in almost exact inverse proportion to WDWs decline. WDWs path would have hit me much harder without an alternative. Comcast is just as greedy and impersonal as Disney, of course, but thankfully, at the moment, they’re smarter.

One thing that struck me very oddly is that there were 3 or so places with carnival games at Universal just crammed in the middle of nowhere, and the Chester/Hester area of DAK seems remarkably better in terms of theming and it gets destroyed all the time online. Aside from that I agree with ImperfectPixie above that nobody ever expected more from Universal, yet we still try to compare them like they are the same thing.

I'm pretty sure Rip Ride Rock It is in 3 lands as well as outside the park gates. So much for theming.

 

[MickeyLuv'r]

They’ve dug themselves so far into a hole I don’t know how someone can justify digging out. It would require huge investments over years knowing that there would be little to no attributable return. You wouldn’t have people saying “I booked a vacation just to see the new C-Ticket.” Instead we have billions being spent to remove capacity at Epcot.

This is all made worse by the ever increasing costs for Disney to build anything. If instead of focusing on NextGen and now Genie, Disney had committed themselves to solving their root problem of the Imagineering premium and providing adequate capacity, we could have something like 10 additional attractions in all of the non-Magic Kingdom parks for less money. The root problems of cost and capacity would be addressed. Guests would be more satisfied with their day, and more satisfied guests buy more and come back more frequently.

I agree. I think they've also dug themselves into a hole where eating is concerned. In some ways, it isn't hard to find food at WDW, but for a long time, they made the process of getting lunch convoluted and absurdly priced, at least if you wanted a TS meal. Customers should be able to walk into almost any restaurant, eat lunch within a reasonable wait time, and pay a reasonable amount of money for it.

Further, every hotel should give their customers coffee and water. Period. At WDW, it has always been absurdly difficult to get a simple cup of coffee. Heaven forbid you want MILK in your coffee as opposed to nasty fake cream. The refillable mugs are nasty. Not only do you have to drink out of the same unsterilized mug all week, but you have to walk half a mile to fill it. And then what? Walk around with it all day? Trudge all the way back to your room with it? It is useless in the parks. I somewhat recently stayed at a hotel that had free filtered water dispensers on EVERY floor of the hotel. It was eye opening! most mid-level hotels offer 24 hour coffee/tea/hot chocolate and it isn't along walk to get it. It has also long been absurdly difficult to get water at WDW.

Again, WDW neglected to add adequate dining capacity, and to charge customers somewhat absurd prices for basic liquids. So customers do everything they can to avoid paying for bottled water....and beer...and cereal...and everything else they can stock.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Disney has stated they want to control crowds to maintain a good guest experience. That's why annual passes are pricey and now come with a reservation system.

What this means specifically in terms of numbers and to what degree Disney will implement this, remains to be seen.

Disney is lying. They want to control crowds - not limit, but control - in order to minimize staffing and avoid adding capacity by forcing guests into less popular rides under the delusion that pure number of rides experienced equals guest satisfaction.

And WDW is attacking APs because they don’t spend as much per visit.

Disney has no interest in limiting visitors, it just wants to maximize the amount it squeezes out of them while minimizing the amount it spends to serve them.

 

[Basil of Baker Street]

I just had a discussion on this matter over in the Genie petition thread. A lot of people still feel the Disney iconography makes WDW the only valid vacation choice and reject Uni because they don’t like the brands or because of the outdated notion that it’s a thrill park - or simply because rejecting Uni is what Disney fans are supposed to do.

WDW will still fill up, but the brand is being weakened.

Personally, I’m extremely happy that Uni has stepped up its game in almost exact inverse proportion to WDWs decline. WDWs path would have hit me much harder without an alternative. Comcast is just as greedy and impersonal as Disney, of course, but thankfully, at the moment, they’re smarter.

Uni is fun, but after day 3 you're hunting for something else to do. Day 2 if you have EP.

 

[Andrew25]

Uni is fun, but after day 3 you're hunting for something else to do. Day 2 if you have EP.

I agree, but that's about to change over the next 5 years. You have to wonder what Disney's Epic Universe game plan is.

 

[Casper Gutman]

One thing that struck me very oddly is that there were 3 or so places with carnival games at Universal just crammed in the middle of nowhere, and the Chester/Hester area of DAK seems remarkably better in terms of theming and it gets destroyed all the time online. Aside from that I agree with ImperfectPixie above that nobody ever expected more from Universal, yet we still try to compare them like they are the same thing.

I'm pretty sure Rip Ride Rock It is in 3 lands as well as outside the park gates. So much for theming.

I’ve always liked C&H.

The carnival attractions in Uni are largely in an otherwise empty and unthemed stretch between Marvel and Toon. There are Dino themed ones in JP - a theme park-themed area, so not too egregious. The ones near the festival stage in Studios are the only ones that really break theming.

In general, Uni’s theming equals and sometimes surpasses WDWs. And you can see it, because there isn’t an endless press of crushing bodies most days.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

Disney is lying. They want to control crowds - not limit, but control - in order to minimize staffing and avoid adding capacity by forcing guests into less popular rides under the delusion that pure number of rides experienced equals guest satisfaction.

And WDW is attacking APs because they don’t spend as much per visit.

Disney has no interest in limiting visitors, it just wants to maximize the amount it squeezes out of them while minimizing the amount it spends to serve them.

Both things can be true. Controlling crowds includes limiting them to a degree. We're not talking about super low capacity, just avoiding the scenarios where more people show up than expected and it impacts the guest experience.

They may limit crowds in the way that if the park is expecting a certain capacity and staffed accordingly, not to exceed that expected capacity. I think is is more of an issue in Anaheim where the parks could get unexpectedly slammed because so many people would just pop in during the evening on a whim.

"Attacking APs" is hyperbole. It's a discount program. You use it when you have unused capacity. Declining to offer discounts if the park is full of guests paying full price isn't an attack. A discount simply isn't necessary. Just as someone paying rack rate for a hotel room over Christmas isn't being attacked.

 

[James Alucobond]

I just had a discussion on this matter over in the Genie petition thread. A lot of people still feel the Disney iconography makes WDW the only valid vacation choice and reject Uni because they don’t like the brands or because of the outdated notion that it’s a thrill park - or simply because rejecting Uni is what Disney fans are supposed to do.

WDW will still fill up, but the brand is being weakened.

Personally, I’m extremely happy that Uni has stepped up its game in almost exact inverse proportion to WDWs decline. WDWs path would have hit me much harder without an alternative. Comcast is just as greedy and impersonal as Disney, of course, but thankfully, at the moment, they’re smarter.

You're turning this into a calculus of theming at one park versus theming at another, cost at one park versus cost at another, operations at one park versus operations at another, future outlook at one park versus future outlook at another. It's much simpler than that.

Why do people buy the Nintendo Switch despite some obvious technical deficiencies compared to its competitors? Because they want to play Nintendo games based on Nintendo IP, which aren't available anywhere else.

Same thing for Disney World. People want to ride Disney rides based on Disney IP, and you can't get those anywhere outside of Disney parks. Universal may serve as a suitable replacement for those who only care about the "theme park" as a type of place, but for those who care about the IP Disney controls, there's nowhere else to go.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

You're turning this into a calculus of theming at one park versus theming at another, cost at one park versus cost at another, operations at one park versus one at another, future outlook at one park versus future outlook at another. It's much simpler than that.

Why do people buy the Nintendo Switch despite some obvious technical deficiencies compared to its competitors? Because they want to play Nintendo games based on Nintendo IP, which aren't available anywhere else.

Same thing for Disney World. People want to ride Disney rides based on Disney IP, and you can't get those anywhere outside of Disney parks. Universal may serve as a suitable replacement for those who only care about the "theme park" as a type of place, but for those who care about the IP Disney controls, there's nowhere else to go.

UGH. Don't make me think about Nintendo and especially the Switch. They've become such a ripoff.

 

[Bea123]

I just had a discussion on this matter over in the Genie petition thread. A lot of people still feel the Disney iconography makes WDW the only valid vacation choice and reject Uni because they don’t like the brands or because of the outdated notion that it’s a thrill park - or simply because rejecting Uni is what Disney fans are supposed to do.

WDW will still fill up, but the brand is being weakened.

Personally, I’m extremely happy that Uni has stepped up its game in almost exact inverse proportion to WDWs decline. WDWs path would have hit me much harder without an alternative. Comcast is just as greedy and impersonal as Disney, of course, but thankfully, at the moment, they’re smarter.

Personally, I believe that the Disney 'Brand' is being weakened because for me Disney was different to Uni and other similar places across the globe because of the atmosphere, cast members, attention to detail, and overall the feeling that guest's happiness was being prioritized above all else. I also thought that Walt wanted the parks to be accessible to all families. So that everyone's dreams could come true.

However, Disney's Brand promise was always 'to create happiness through magical experiences' Some may argue that they are still doing this....Folks will just have to pay more to have those magical experiences. Disney's Mission Statement is to 'inform and inspire people around the globe..blah blah. And again, you could say they are doing this (you just have to pay for it).

For now, it seems that you can still wish upon a star.. But it really does make a difference how rich you are...then Disney will make your dreams come true.

I suspect that this is what Disney is aiming for. Fewer people visiting but each 'guest' paying more per visit. Sure they will keep the magic alive (for a premium fee). Some people will always believe in the Disney Brand because of what it has meant to them personally over the years, and they will find a way to afford it. Some people will say enough is enough and move on but they will be replaced with new guests that don't have the 'old Disney' to compare things to and they will also pay. So it's a win-win for Disney even though, to the old guard, it feels like it shouldn't be.

 

[doctornick]

The big difference between Comcast and Disney is that Comcast doesn't have a history of going above and beyond...Disney does.

Yes. And it's that goodwill and nostalgia that Disney is able to capitalize on and have more inelastic demand despite large price increases. If Uni were as aggressive in raising prices and "nickle and diming" then I think they would have a more dramatic falling off of attendance than WDW will.

That being said, I have no illusion that if Comcast felt they "could" do what Disney is doing, that they would to. They are no more moral or guest friendly than Disney is.

 

[doctornick]

What am I missing here? Unless you're referring to the fact that GOTG is replacing Universe of Energy, and will surely have a lower hourly throughput? What else is Epcot losing?

In general all the ride replacements in Epcot over the years have had less capacity than the originals (WoM to TT, Horizons to M:S, WoL shuttered then only Play and not replacing Body Wars/Cranium Command); UoE to GOTG will also be there). but I think the most immediate griping is about closing Innoventions West

 

[flynnibus]

Both things can be true. Controlling crowds includes limiting them to a degree. We're not talking about super low capacity, just avoiding the scenarios where more people show up than expected and it impacts the guest experience.

Yes, but your statement is buying into Disney's sales pitch that the MOTIVATION is prioritizing guest experience. It's not. The spiel about controls for guest experience is just lip service.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

Yes, but your statement is buying into Disney's sales pitch that the MOTIVATION is prioritizing guest experience. It's not. The spiel about controls for guest experience is just lip service.

Their motivation is profit, as we all know. I don't really care what Disney's motivation is, I care about what kind of experience I have when I pay to go. If they do what they say they're going to do, guest experience will be better, plain and simple.

We saw what happened when Galaxy's Edge opened in Anaheim and no one showed up. More and more people have gone to Disneyland or WDW, found it to be overly crowded, and are less likely to return.

I don't know what the casual fan knows about things like annual passes and how they have changed crowd patterns, but they do know that it's not worth $100+ to be packed like sardines in a theme park. A lot of people are less interested to pay big bucks to be crowded into what has become a cheap hangout for locals.

If Disney can manage crowds, and provide a good experience for all guests, they'll encourage tourists to come and can still use passes and other discounts to fill in the gaps. It can be a win-win for all involved.

Disney loves the AP demographic with good reason, but if they serve that group at the expense of tourists, they'll lose customers, and Disney parks cannot survive on discount loving locals alone.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Their motivation is profit, as we all know. I don't really care what Disney's motivation is, I care about what kind of experience I have when I pay to go. If they do what they say they're going to do, guest experience will be better, plain and simple.

We saw what happened when Galaxy's Edge opened in Anaheim and no one showed up. More and more people have gone to Disneyland or WDW, found it to be overly crowded, and are less likely to return.

I don't know what the casual fan knows about things like annual passes and how they have changed crowd patterns, but they do know that it's not worth $100+ to be packed like sardines in a theme park. A lot of people are less interested to pay big bucks to be crowded into what has become a cheap hangout for locals.

If Disney can manage crowds, and provide a good experience for all guests, they'll encourage tourists to come and can still use passes and other discounts to fill in the gaps. It can be a win-win for all involved.

Disney loves the AP demographic with good reason, but if they serve that group at the expense of tourists, they'll lose customers, and Disney parks cannot survive on discount loving locals alone.

Wait, wait, wait… Disney really doesn’t like the AP crowd. It actively wants to discourage them because it sees them as taking up room that could be occupied by more profitable guests.

Disney has a very clear profile of the guests they want - upper- or upper-middle class, first timers, two parents and several kids, preferably girls - a family ready to plunge huge amounts into a single trip. Part of the problem is that Disney has been making their preference for this demographic too obvious by actively instituting policies that deter other groups.

If this program makes the parks less crowded, it is a failure and WDW will panic. Again, they do not want to limit crowds, even as a byproduct.

 

[GimpYancIent]

Disney has stated they want to control crowds to maintain a good guest experience. That's why annual passes are pricey and now come with a reservation system.

What this means specifically in terms of numbers and to what degree Disney will implement this, remains to be seen.

The "Disney has stated they want to control crowds to maintain a good guest experience" is Disney's cover statement, an excuse, quite simply a lie, a way to charge more while looking like the good guy's and feeling clever. All the time actively working to pack the parks w all the guests they can and brag about how full the parks are due to popularity. The propaganda, sorry I mean marketing department was and is very good w spin only now facts and truth are coming clear.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

This whole reservation system and controlling crowds is a new thing, so we really do need to wait and see what actually happens.

 

[Casper Gutman]

You're turning this into a calculus of theming at one park versus theming at another, cost at one park versus cost at another, operations at one park versus operations at another, future outlook at one park versus future outlook at another. It's much simpler than that.

Why do people buy the Nintendo Switch despite some obvious technical deficiencies compared to its competitors? Because they want to play Nintendo games based on Nintendo IP, which aren't available anywhere else.

Same thing for Disney World. People want to ride Disney rides based on Disney IP, and you can't get those anywhere outside of Disney parks. Universal may serve as a suitable replacement for those who only care about the "theme park" as a type of place, but for those who care about the IP Disney controls, there's nowhere else to go.

I suppose this is what I have difficulty understanding. I love Disney, Star Wars, Pixar, Marvel. In fact, I’m willing to test my fandom for and knowledge of Marvel and the Disney animated classics against anyone on these boards. I have far too many Marvel, Disney, and SW figures and shirts and other knick knacks littered about.

But I also love theme parks. And sticking Marvel or Disney on a bad theme park experience doesn’t make it better. I didn’t like the awful Rise of Skywalker just because it was SW, after all. In fact, the way modern WDW uses the brands diminishes them and takes advantage of my fondness for them, cheapening it.

I can still watch MCU movies in the cinema at Uni. And I get a better theme park experience.

 

[Casper Gutman]

This whole reservation system and controlling crowds is a new thing, so we really do need to wait and see what actually happens.

They are new manifestations of the corporate philosophy that has governed WDW for over a decade, evolutionary developments of previous systems. They are new only in the most literal sense. We can make very informed judgements about how they will be implemented.