Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[correcaminos]

Significant spread has never been traced to any outdoor environment so the part I bolded is speculation. There are plenty of examples of large numbers of people close together for various political events (both demonstrations and rallies) last summer and fall and there wasn't spread traced to either.

Somebody will bring up the soccer match in Italy (I think) where people got infected and brought it back to Spain (I think). However, the spread was never traced to the game. The out of town fans were eating out and going to bars in the host city and those indoor environments are likely where the spread took place. Same thing for spring break 2020 spread.

There has never been any reason to require masks outdoors at WDW except for the logistical complications of trying to enforce it when people go indoors. For that reason, I don't think they will drop the requirement in phases. It will likely stay as is and then get dropped completely at some point.

I'll disagree about logistics. My zoo did great with indoor only requirements. It's not that hard.

 

[ParentsOf4]

I was speaking to my wife about that the other night.
People can make a very reasonable argument for vaccine hesitancy.
"It's not FDA approved."
"If I don't get vaccinated, but most other people are vaccinated - including the most vulnerable - why should it matter if I take my own risk with my own health?"
"If I get vaccinated, I still need to wear a mask and social distance as does everyone else whether vaccinated or not, so what's the point?"
Now yes, most of us know that there are holes in those arguments - but they are not unreasonable points.
My wife and I were discussing how the point that mitigation efforts can be reduced and dropped more quickly if most people get vaccinated soon (and the ability of variants to arise) should be emphasized more clearly.

I'll add another reason people are not getting vaccinated:

"It's inconvenient."

Some people can't take the time off to get vaccinated. Businesses have to make it more convenient for these workers.

Others are waiting for appointments at their local grocery store, pharmacy, doctor's office, etc. Here in Georgia, there are appointments to be had on short notice at high-volume temporary locations setup by county health departments but many are reluctant to use those.

At least locally, we are at the point where someone can get an appointment within a few days, if they are willing and able to take some time off and drive to one of the county-run locations with open slots.

 

[GimpYancIent]

I can't imagine Disney changing its mask policy but this CNN article is interesting:

It's time to face the new reality on mask wearing​

By Jill Filipovic

Walking around my Brooklyn neighborhood as the country comes out of a long, Covid-depressed winter, I notice nearly everyone engaging in a curious pandemic ritual: as we stroll past brownstones, we all pull our masks up as soon as we see one another coming.

"Science is real," the yard signs on the block declare, and I suspect my neighbors and I generally agree, as we avoid eye contact over the tops of our KN95s.

Joggers in the park do this mask up, mask down business every few seconds, gasping for air when their faces are free. Restaurants dutifully squirt sanitizer onto diners' hands before seating them inside. Local scolds scan the horizon for the maskless, and meet them with a glare or some choice words. I've been there myself: in the first several months of the pandemic, I found myself irrationally angry at any maskless runner who passed me by.

But now that we better understand the real risks of Covid, and that vaccines are rolling out, might it be time to adjust our social mores?

These mores, of course, are not the same everywhere. In much of the country, people are living life as if there were no pandemic at all, as if more than half a million Americans weren't dead from a contagious respiratory illness. They are dining, shopping, barhopping, going to weddings and baby showers and doing it all inside and maskless.

It's no wonder that our individual responses to Covid change with our politics -- the pandemic has been politicized from the start. Many liberals (myself included) have emphasized that wearing masks isn't just about reducing personal risk -- it's about protecting the whole community, and especially the most vulnerable in it. Wearing a mask is no big deal, and we are happy to do it -- and not reluctant to shame others, in person or online, who refuse

But today we know much more about Covid than we did when mask mandates began. The evidence points to one conclusion: Being outside and away from others -- or even passing by others for a second or two at close distance -- is incredibly unlikely to spread Covid. It's not impossible, but it's so rare that researchers have had a hard time identifying many cases of outdoor transmission.

Indoors is a different story. It's clear that masks work, and that Covid thrives in contained spaces where people are breathing the same air. Masks remain necessary, and should be mandated, in the grocery store, on public transport, on airplanes and in airports, and anywhere else we're inside. And given that Covid rates continue to climb, it's absurd that we're allowing indoor dining, drinking and event-attending, particularly among the unvaccinated.

Crowded outdoor events are also a bad idea without masks. A concert where revelers are pressed together and everyone is screaming and singing for hours is practically inviting infections. Two unvaccinated people sitting inches away from each other and talking at length are taking a risk, even if they are outside.

Dr. Anthony Alberg, the chair of the department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics at the University of South Carolina's Arnold School of Public Health, told the Charleston Post and Courier, for example, that issues like crowd density -- can people stay relatively far apart? -- are key for outdoor events, because "At a concert, people are going to be, depending on the kind of concert, likely to be yelling and shouting and cheering and that sort of thing. The more vocal we get the more likely we are to spread the coronavirus further distances."

All other things being equal, though, outdoors is preferable to indoors.

Maybe we should do what so many liberals demand and follow the science instead of our political beliefs. The directives could be pretty simple: mask up indoors, in a crowd or at close distance. Don't feel you have to if you're outdoors and vaccinated, or outdoors and not getting close to anyone for more than a few seconds.

The pandemic has made us more sedentary than ever, which is bad for our bodies and minds. People should be encouraged to go for a walk, jog or outdoor workout class -- and they should be able to do so in comfort and with the ability to breathe, which means maskless.

We are shifting toward a new normal, and that will be rocky -- our social skills are rusty and our anxieties high. Simply being near strangers pitches many of us into hypervigilance. And we want to demonstrate that we are doing our part to protect our communities.

But we can put a balanced public health perspective at the center of this readjustment, and trust that our fellow citizens know the difference between outside and in.

Right now, we're going about it in exactly the wrong way: Increasingly allowing masklessness inside, while socially enforcing mask-wearing outside. It's the worst of all worlds, especially as infections climb.

For the record, I'm still wearing my mask outside, because that is considerate behavior in my community.

But I'd love to reach a point where our mask-wearing norms more fully aligned with our values, and signaled that we believe in science and care about others -- that we value their mental health and overall well-being, and that we trust their ability to distinguish between high and low risk.

Another wordy CNN piece that drones on and on. A simple people need to use common sense sentence would have sufficed.

 

[GoofGoof]

I can't imagine Disney changing its mask policy but this CNN article is interesting:

It's time to face the new reality on mask wearing​

By Jill Filipovic

Walking around my Brooklyn neighborhood as the country comes out of a long, Covid-depressed winter, I notice nearly everyone engaging in a curious pandemic ritual: as we stroll past brownstones, we all pull our masks up as soon as we see one another coming.

"Science is real," the yard signs on the block declare, and I suspect my neighbors and I generally agree, as we avoid eye contact over the tops of our KN95s.

Joggers in the park do this mask up, mask down business every few seconds, gasping for air when their faces are free. Restaurants dutifully squirt sanitizer onto diners' hands before seating them inside. Local scolds scan the horizon for the maskless, and meet them with a glare or some choice words. I've been there myself: in the first several months of the pandemic, I found myself irrationally angry at any maskless runner who passed me by.

But now that we better understand the real risks of Covid, and that vaccines are rolling out, might it be time to adjust our social mores?

These mores, of course, are not the same everywhere. In much of the country, people are living life as if there were no pandemic at all, as if more than half a million Americans weren't dead from a contagious respiratory illness. They are dining, shopping, barhopping, going to weddings and baby showers and doing it all inside and maskless.

It's no wonder that our individual responses to Covid change with our politics -- the pandemic has been politicized from the start. Many liberals (myself included) have emphasized that wearing masks isn't just about reducing personal risk -- it's about protecting the whole community, and especially the most vulnerable in it. Wearing a mask is no big deal, and we are happy to do it -- and not reluctant to shame others, in person or online, who refuse

But today we know much more about Covid than we did when mask mandates began. The evidence points to one conclusion: Being outside and away from others -- or even passing by others for a second or two at close distance -- is incredibly unlikely to spread Covid. It's not impossible, but it's so rare that researchers have had a hard time identifying many cases of outdoor transmission.

Indoors is a different story. It's clear that masks work, and that Covid thrives in contained spaces where people are breathing the same air. Masks remain necessary, and should be mandated, in the grocery store, on public transport, on airplanes and in airports, and anywhere else we're inside. And given that Covid rates continue to climb, it's absurd that we're allowing indoor dining, drinking and event-attending, particularly among the unvaccinated.

Crowded outdoor events are also a bad idea without masks. A concert where revelers are pressed together and everyone is screaming and singing for hours is practically inviting infections. Two unvaccinated people sitting inches away from each other and talking at length are taking a risk, even if they are outside.

Dr. Anthony Alberg, the chair of the department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics at the University of South Carolina's Arnold School of Public Health, told the Charleston Post and Courier, for example, that issues like crowd density -- can people stay relatively far apart? -- are key for outdoor events, because "At a concert, people are going to be, depending on the kind of concert, likely to be yelling and shouting and cheering and that sort of thing. The more vocal we get the more likely we are to spread the coronavirus further distances."

All other things being equal, though, outdoors is preferable to indoors.

Maybe we should do what so many liberals demand and follow the science instead of our political beliefs. The directives could be pretty simple: mask up indoors, in a crowd or at close distance. Don't feel you have to if you're outdoors and vaccinated, or outdoors and not getting close to anyone for more than a few seconds.

The pandemic has made us more sedentary than ever, which is bad for our bodies and minds. People should be encouraged to go for a walk, jog or outdoor workout class -- and they should be able to do so in comfort and with the ability to breathe, which means maskless.

We are shifting toward a new normal, and that will be rocky -- our social skills are rusty and our anxieties high. Simply being near strangers pitches many of us into hypervigilance. And we want to demonstrate that we are doing our part to protect our communities.

But we can put a balanced public health perspective at the center of this readjustment, and trust that our fellow citizens know the difference between outside and in.

Right now, we're going about it in exactly the wrong way: Increasingly allowing masklessness inside, while socially enforcing mask-wearing outside. It's the worst of all worlds, especially as infections climb.

For the record, I'm still wearing my mask outside, because that is considerate behavior in my community.

But I'd love to reach a point where our mask-wearing norms more fully aligned with our values, and signaled that we believe in science and care about others -- that we value their mental health and overall well-being, and that we trust their ability to distinguish between high and low risk.

The reality of the situation is if people followed the true science we would have been a lot better off. People outdoors passing in a park didn’t really need masks. Those same people when indoors with friends, neighbors and family members, away from the prying eyes of their local Karens, should have been wearing a mask but in a lot of cases didn’t.

 

[GoofGoof]

I'll add another reason people are not getting vaccinated:

"It's inconvenient."

Some people can't take the time off to get vaccinated. Businesses have to make it more convenient for these workers.

Others are waiting for appointments at their local grocery store, pharmacy, doctor's office, etc. Here in Georgia, there are appointments to be had on short notice at high-volume temporary locations setup by county health departments but many are reluctant to use those.

At least locally, we are at the point where someone can get an appointment within a few days, if they are willing and able to take some time off and drive to one of the county-run locations with open slots.

This is where the pull starts to come in. Once everyone who has a strong desire to be vaccinated is done the focus shifts from pushing out as many doses as possible as quickly as possible to pulling people in. Dumb it down, make it so simple to do it’s hard to rationalize not doing it. Many large employers, including WDW now, are bringing the shots on-site to make it more convenient for workers. Some are also offering financial incentives like several hours pay or a fixed sum. My company is offering $75 for anyone who gets vaccinated. Not a huge sum, but free money is free money.

 

[Nubs70]

The reality of the situation is if people followed the true science we would have been a lot better off. People outdoors passing in a park didn’t really need masks. Those same people when indoors with friends, neighbors and family members, away from the prying eyes of their local Karens, should have been wearing a mask but in a lot of cases didn’t.

Yet, at the onset of the pandemic, we shutdown a vast amount of outdoor activity such as golf, boating, fishing etc.. and forced friends, neighbors and family members indoors into situation where they did not where masks.

As science evolves, it appears that ventilation is the primary protection against infection and masks are secondary.

 

[havoc315]

So, there is a media event at 4:30 pm today.. Expect announcement of further things opening for summer.
Strong rumors that fireworks will be announced for the summer.
A soft rumor that there will be an announcement related to the future of fastpass.
I wouldn't be surprised to hear about more resort reopening plans.
And while it may not be formally announced at the event, I expect summer discounts to be announced very shortly.

Few weeks ago, I posted this:

News - Early Theme Park Entry and Extended Evening Hours coming for resort guests

Do you really think they can say, “3 feet is safe for your children but not you”? That doesn’t make any damn sense. Kids and teachers/staff can be 3 feet apart for 7 hours inside a building but must be 6 feet apart at the beach? They will use this in their continuing battle with teachers...

forums.wdwmagic.com

And considering it takes several weeks to re-launch any hotel and/or entertainment.. We would expect to see the resort re-openings announced no later than early April (right after Easter perhaps).

So here we are, early April.... As to any major Summer policy changes, entertainment or resorts coming back for summer, I expect we will be hearing it today.

 

[GoofGoof]

Yet, at the onset of the pandemic, we shutdown a vast amount of outdoor activity such as golf, boating, fishing etc.. and forced friends, neighbors and family members indoors into situation where they did not where masks.

As science evolves, it appears that ventilation is the primary protection against infection and masks are secondary.

Masks are essential for any indoor situation with strangers. A large amount of traced spread has occurred when people got together with friends and families indoors without masks. We know this now. Even kids in schools, very few cases of actual in school spread have been proven near me, but we have had multiple outbreaks from kids getting together after school and from after school sports, specifically indoor sports. There was a large outbreak linked to ice hockey and another from indoor swimming this past winter. Outdoor sports like soccer and football had no major outbreaks that we know of. We also had an outbreak around little league last Summer but not from the games themselves but from a July 4th party that several coaches and many players attended.

 

[danlb_2000]

Yet, at the onset of the pandemic, we shutdown a vast amount of outdoor activity such as golf, boating, fishing etc.. and forced friends, neighbors and family members indoors into situation where they did not where masks.

As science evolves, it appears that ventilation is the primary protection against infection and masks are secondary.

Yes, but wearing a mask is cheap and easy, fixing ventilation, which in the long term is the right thing to do, it a lot harder and more expensive in a lot of cases.

 

[Nubs70]

Masks are essential for any indoor situation with strangers. A large amount of traced spread has occurred when people got together with friends and families indoors without masks. We know this now. Even kids in schools, very few cases of actual in school spread have been proven near me, but we have had multiple outbreaks from kids getting together after school and from after school sports, specifically indoor sports. There was a large outbreak linked to ice hockey and another from indoor swimming this past winter. Outdoor sports like soccer and football had no major outbreaks that we know of. We also had an outbreak around little league last Summer but not from the games themselves but from a July 4th party that several coaches and many players attended.

The type of indoor environment also needs to be taken into consideration. Is it a room with little ventilation or a lot of ventilation? I work in paper mills that have offices that tend to be poorly ventilated and machine floor that are highly ventilated.

My coworker was in an office with 4 people, one of who was infected. The other 3 all got Covid. Yet, none on the highly ventilated machine floor caught Covid. My other mills, whose mask policy is "lightly" enforced, no outbreaks have occurred. To which I credit ventilation. If there were to be an outbreak, that would be the place.

 

[GoofGoof]

The type of indoor environment also needs to be taken into consideration. Is it a room with little ventilation or a lot of ventilation? I work in paper mills that have offices that tend to be poorly ventilated and machine floor that are highly ventilated.

My coworker was in an office with 4 people, one of who was infected. The other 3 all got Covid. Yet, none on the highly ventilated machine floor caught Covid. My other mills, whose mask policy is "lightly" enforced, no outbreaks have occurred. To which I credit ventilation. If there were to be an outbreak, that would be the place.

Yes, totally true. That‘s also why in home gatherings without masks were such a bad idea. Even with windows open most homes have poor ventilation compared to an industrial or office setting. Also why we saw a huge surge in the Fall up here in the NE when temps dropped and people moved indoors.

 

[sbbr]

This is where the pull starts to come in. Once everyone who has a strong desire to be vaccinated is done the focus shifts from pushing out as many doses as possible as quickly as possible to pulling people in. Dumb it down, make it so simple to do it’s hard to rationalize not doing it. Many large employers, including WDW now, are bringing the shots on-site to make it more convenient for workers. Some are also offering financial incentives like several hours pay or a fixed sum. My company is offering $75 for anyone who gets vaccinated. Not a huge sum, but free money is free money.

You're so right. The next step is truly to make it as easy (and desirable!) as possible on people.

Anecdotal, but I manage a group of about 50 people in a large company, all essential workers. When I first started getting a list together for who might want a vaccine, the list was small. Lots of hesitancy. When I offered to help make appointments and made it clear that they could take time off to get their vaccine with no penalty, it grew a little more. When I said "health services has the vaccines here on site, anyone want to walk up and get one?" way more people took me up on it.

Honestly, I think if I told them once we had 100% vaccinated they could stop wearing masks at work, it would get to 100 real quick.

 

[GoofGoof]

You're so right. The next step is truly to make it as easy (and desirable!) as possible on people.

Anecdotal, but I manage a group of about 50 people in a large company, all essential workers. When I first started getting a list together for who might want a vaccine, the list was small. Lots of hesitancy. When I offered to help make appointments and made it clear that they could take time off to get their vaccine with no penalty, it grew a little more. When I said "health services has the vaccines here on site, anyone want to walk up and get one?" way more people took me up on it.

Honestly, I think if I told them once we had 100% vaccinated they could stop wearing masks at work, it would get to 100 real quick.

I do think that should be the policy very soon. Not yet as not enough people are vaccinated and not everyone has had a fair shot. Maybe something like starting June 1 or July 1 anyone vaccinated can come to work without a mask and anyone unvaccinated still needs to wear one. Very easy for an employer to enforce too, wear a mask or you are fired....and before someone tries to claim it’s a HIPAA violation for an employer to ask for proof of vaccination, it’s not. They cannot turn around and share that information with a 3rd party, that would be a violation. It also wouldn’t be requiring the vaccine of anyone. You would have the option to not get vaccinated or not share your vaccine status with your employer, but if you do you need to continue wearing a mask to work. I agree that we would get to near 100% acceptance if that happened. I think the CDC should put that recommendation out there soon and make the date several months out so people have lead time to get the vaccine.

 

[pixie225]

I'll add another reason people are not getting vaccinated:

"It's inconvenient."

Some people can't take the time off to get vaccinated. Businesses have to make it more convenient for these workers.

Others are waiting for appointments at their local grocery store, pharmacy, doctor's office, etc. Here in Georgia, there are appointments to be had on short notice at high-volume temporary locations setup by county health departments but many are reluctant to use those.

At least locally, we are at the point where someone can get an appointment within a few days, if they are willing and able to take some time off and drive to one of the county-run locations with open slots.

One thing Gov. Cuomo did right- signed legislation giving 4 hours off per vaccine for workers to get vaccinated. It is still very difficult to get appt. here on Long Island though, and in places in the city. Plenty of openings upstate though if willing to travel 200-300 miles.

Governor Cuomo Signs Legislation Granting Employees Time off to Receive COVID-19 Vaccination

Governor Cuomo signed legislation (S.2588-A/A.3354-B) granting public and private employees time off to receive the COVID-19 vaccination.

www.governor.ny.gov

 

[Stupido]

One thing Gov. Cuomo did right- signed legislation giving 4 hours off per vaccine for workers to get vaccinated. It is still very difficult to get appt. here on Long Island though, and in places in the city. Plenty of openings upstate though if willing to travel 200-300 miles.

Governor Cuomo Signs Legislation Granting Employees Time off to Receive COVID-19 Vaccination

Governor Cuomo signed legislation (S.2588-A/A.3354-B) granting public and private employees time off to receive the COVID-19 vaccination.

www.governor.ny.gov

If you're looking for appointments in NY, try using this link. It's a nonprofit organization that searches canceled appointments and redistributes them to people who need them. I'm on Long Island, reached out to them on a Monday at 4, and by Tuesday at 11am I had my first shot of the juice. I've gotten so many of my friends signed up through this.

 

[HarperRose]

Yet, at the onset of the pandemic, we shutdown a vast amount of outdoor activity such as golf, boating, fishing etc.. and forced friends, neighbors and family members indoors into situation where they did not where masks.

As science evolves, it appears that ventilation is the primary protection against infection and masks are secondary.

We spent most of April and May of last year boating and fishing, as did many other people in WI.

 

[SamusAranX]

If my journey up half the Piedmont this past day taught me anything, it’s that as far as 80 percent of people are concerned, Covid is done. Good luck getting them to apply mitigation’s. Everywhere I stopped for gas and pick up food, I was one of few wearing masks.

 

[ABQ]

Hadn't seen this mentioned yet.

Colorado vaccination site closes early after reactions to Johnson & Johnson vaccine

A mass vaccination site in Colorado closed early Wednesday after a "limited number" of people began having adverse reactions to the Johnson and Johnson COVID-19 vaccine, resulting in hundreds of people who waited in line for hours being sent home without receiving a shot.

www.foxbusiness.com

Hope we hear some details on what this is all about.

 

[DisneyCane]

Just got Moderna #2 a few minutes ago. Fingers crossed for minimal side effects later.

 

[havoc315]

I do think that should be the policy very soon. Not yet as not enough people are vaccinated and not everyone has had a fair shot. Maybe something like starting June 1 or July 1 anyone vaccinated can come to work without a mask and anyone unvaccinated still needs to wear one. Very easy for an employer to enforce too, wear a mask or you are fired....and before someone tries to claim it’s a HIPAA violation for an employer to ask for proof of vaccination, it’s not. They cannot turn around and share that information with a 3rd party, that would be a violation.

You are basically correct. Just like employers can require drug testing. All HIPAA does: It prohibits your health care provider from disclosing your PHI (Protected Health Information) with a ton of exceptions.
General exceptions: May be provided to the patient, may be provided to those within the provider's organization for the purpose of treatment and billing. May be provided to insurance carriers, etc, for purposes of collecting bills. May be provided for infection control measures, etc.

Then the big exception: May be provided with the consent of the patient.

Nothing prohibits a private company/individual from asking about a person's PHI. You can refuse to provide it, certainly. But then they can refuse to hire you, etc.

So -- under HIPAA, you do have the "right" to privacy of your health care information. But other companies / people can require you to waive that right as a pre-condition to services, employment, etc.

For example, I handle medical malpractice lawsuits. To bring such a lawsuit, a patient is required to consent to disclosure of their PHI. They sign "HIPAA Compliant Authorizations"... and I obtain their medical records.

HIPAA does not mean nobody can ask about your medical information.

It also wouldn’t be requiring the vaccine of anyone. You would have the option to not get vaccinated or not share your vaccine status with your employer, but if you do you need to continue wearing a mask to work. I agree that we would get to near 100% acceptance if that happened. I think the CDC should put that recommendation out there soon and make the date several months out so people have lead time to get the vaccine.