Jungle Cruise Re-Imagining

[Brer Panther]

You know, I still really don't care about the Jungle Cruise changes, but I'm getting tired of all of this strawmaning anyone who's against changing Splash Mountain or the Jungle Cruise.

1) Splash is primarily popular because of the large drop into water on a hot day, not because of the characters from a movie that 99% of guests have not seen.

If the theme of Splash Mountain doesn't matter, why are we arguing about changing it at all? Also, the Brer Rabbit plushes in the gift shop sell last time I checked.

• “Disney only cares about money, but they’re doing things that are expensive but nobody wants?”
• “Disney lies when they say they care about inclusion and diversity. They just say that to get PR points with the woke mob who doesn’t go to the parks anyway.”
• Only a handful of people on Twitter have a problem with certain scenes in some rides, but despite investing tons of time and money in market research, Disney is dumb and thinks a few loud woke “elites” represent the majority of their audience.
• “Nobody complains about racially insensitive show scenes. But if they did, Disney shouldn’t listen to them because these are timeless classics that don’t offend me. Disney should listen to my complaints about the changes, though, or that’s the last straw for me! I’ll take my family to Universal.”
• “Disney is changing things because of the change.org petition to change Splash, but the petition against changing Splash had WAY more signatures.“
• “Disney has the right to change whatever it wants but all these changes are being forced down out throats by the elites and the government is censoring Disney’s free speech.”
• “There is nothing racist about __________. You don’t get to decide what’s racist, I do!”
• ”Black people who complain about representation and insensitivity in the parks are way too sensitive. We should not listen to them. Also I have a Black friend, and he says he’s not offended at all by the Jungle Cruise.“
• “This is just the beginning. Next they’re coming for Carousel of Progress,
• “Since Disney does business in China, and China abuses human rights, making changes to be racially sensitive in the American parks isn’t worthwhile.”

Allow me to post some common claims IN FAVOR OF these changes that I've heard...

• "If you have a problem with them changing this, you're racist." (I don't think anybody's outright said this, but it's clear that's the indication)
• "Splash Mountain never should've been themed to Song of the South in the first place."
• "It doesn't matter if nothing that's considered racist about Song of the South is actually featured in Splash Mountain. It's got ties to Song of the South, so it must go."
• "It's just a coincidence that Disney announced, while they were in the middle of a pandemic and losing money as a result of it, that they were retheming Splash Mountain to a movie that they initially brushed off as a flop (dubbing its flopping as proof that hand-drawn animated films are dangerous) and ignored for years after some guy on Twitter posted HIS idea for a retheme of Splash Mountain to a movie that they initially brushed off that people for whatever reason gave a lot of traction."
• "You don't get to decide what's racist, I do."
• "The theme for Splash Mountain doesn't matter (except when we're talking about how racist it is, then it automatically DOES matter), people only ride it for the drop."
• "It's just a ride, so you shouldn't care so much about it. But it just being a ride isn't stopping me from dubbing it racist."

Also, forgive us for not immediately believing that Disney supposedly has good intentions with these. Maybe they do with the Jungle Cruise changes, but Splash Mountain? Not a chance. That was definitely either because of the petitions or Iger just wants to be free from Song of the South existing so he and the rest of the company orchestrated the idea of a retheme to get people to turn on Splash Mountain. Disney has a habit of doing shady things (firing Steve Whitmire because they got agitated over his criticisms of the way they were handling the franchise and trying to bribe him into keeping quiet with a Disney Legends award, filming parts of Mulan near a concentration camp), keep in mind.

I bet a good chunk of you actually LIKED Splash Mountain and didn't have a problem with the theme until Frederick Chambers posted his idea of a retheme of it on Twitter. And I bet years from now, when Disney announces that they're retheming Princess and the Frog Mountain to a recent PIXAR movie or something like that, all of you people defending the retheme will be claiming that Princess and the Frog Mountain is racist as well.

 

[LittleBuford]

You know, I still really don't care about the Jungle Cruise changes, but I'm getting tired of all of this strawmaning anyone who's against changing Splash Mountain or the Jungle Cruise.


If the theme of Splash Mountain doesn't matter, why are we arguing about changing it at all? Also, the Brer Rabbit plushes in the gift shop sell last time I checked.


Allow me to post some common claims IN FAVOR OF these changes that I've heard...

• "If you have a problem with them changing this, you're racist." (I don't think anybody's outright said this, but it's clear that's the indication)
• "Splash Mountain never should've been themed to Song of the South in the first place."
• "It doesn't matter if nothing that's considered racist about Song of the South is actually featured in Splash Mountain. It's got ties to Song of the South, so it must go."
• "It's just a coincidence that Disney announced, while they were in the middle of a pandemic and losing money as a result of it, that they were retheming Splash Mountain to a movie that they initially brushed off as a flop (dubbing its flopping as proof that hand-drawn animated films are dangerous) and ignored for years after some guy on Twitter posted HIS idea for a retheme of Splash Mountain to a movie that they initially brushed off that people for whatever reason gave a lot of traction."
• "You don't get to decide what's racist, I do."
• "The theme for Splash Mountain doesn't matter (except when we're talking about how racist it is, then it automatically DOES matter), people only ride it for the drop."
• "It's just a ride, so you shouldn't care so much about it. But it just being a ride isn't stopping me from dubbing it racist."

Also, forgive us for not immediately believing that Disney supposedly has good intentions with these. Maybe they do with the Jungle Cruise changes, but Splash Mountain? Not a chance. That was definitely either because of the petitions or Iger just wants to be free from Song of the South existing so he and the rest of the company orchestrated the idea of a retheme to get people to turn on Splash Mountain. Disney has a habit of doing shady things (firing Steve Whitmire because they got agitated over his criticisms of the way they were handling the franchise and trying to bribe him into keeping quiet with a Disney Legends award, filming parts of Mulan near a concentration camp), keep in mind.

I bet a good chunk of you actually LIKED Splash Mountain and didn't have a problem with the theme until Frederick Chambers posted his idea of a retheme of it on Twitter. And I bet years from now, when Disney announces that they're retheming Princess and the Frog Mountain to a recent PIXAR movie or something like that, all of you people defending the retheme will be claiming that Princess and the Frog Mountain is racist as well.

What do you say to those of us who enjoy the current version of Splash Mountain but, despite being personally sad to see it go, understand why Disney has chosen to retheme it? I ask because I think we’re rather more numerous than the kinds of individuals you’ve caricatured in your post.

 

[Swedish Chef]

Long time lurker, but wanted to chime in.

First, I have no complaint about a Princess/Frog ride. There were times during the movie when I thought scenes would make for a decent FLand attraction to compliment Pan and Mermaid. My issue is with losing a beloved theme to a beloved ride, and some great nostalgic songs like Zip and Laughing Place. Solution idea: REMAKE SONG OF THE SOUTH!

What is so wrong with this? Set the movie far away from the days of slavery, and have it focus on the following:
Kid lives with a dysfunctional, busy parental unit with a very absent father. So the kid finds a father figure in a neighbor down the street "Uncle Remus" who tells stories of Brer Rabbit and company, which the kid uses for escapism from his troubles in reality.
Mother has an objection with Remus filling kid's head with fictitious nonsense, yet learns in time to appreciate Remus's tales herself.
Mother and Father eventually become better parents, like in the original movie. Remus remains friends and his "nonsense" stories are deemed OK.

No slavery, just a good neighborhood gentleman who uses make-believe with morals to help others cope with life, again like in the original movie.
Oh, and cast Morgan Freeman as Uncle Remus. He would be excellent.
KEEP Zip-a-dee-do-dah, and some of the other popular songs. Remove the Tar Baby and racist elements. Keep Splash faithful to the new SOTS, make a Princess/Frog dark ride for FLand or New Orleans Square. Everyone goes home happy.

Is it really that difficult? Not saying there are not problems with the original. There certainly are. But is the solution so complex to remove a classic ride's theme?

 

[Sue_Vongello]

I’m curious - can we assume that people championing changes to these attractions have only ever been on them once ever? I mean after that first experience, since the problematic elements are so obvious it must have offended them to the point of never riding the attraction again? Is that a safe assumption?

 

[ohioguy]

I’m curious - can we assume that people championing changes to these attractions have only ever been on them once ever? I mean after that first experience, since the problematic elements are so obvious it must have offended them to the point of never riding the attraction again? Is that a safe assumption?

Not a safe assumption at all. As one grows intellectually through their life (hopefully) they come to a better understanding of the world and more empathetic to others. Empathy is apparently what is lacking in most people.

 

[_caleb]

I’m curious - can we assume that people championing changes to these attractions have only ever been on them once ever? I mean after that first experience, since the problematic elements are so obvious it must have offended them to the point of never riding the attraction again? Is that a safe assumption?

No, you shouldn’t assume that at all.

What do you say to those of us who enjoy the current version of Splash Mountain but, despite being personally sad to see it go, understand why Disney has chosen to retheme it? I ask because I think we’re rather more numerous than the kinds of individuals you’ve caricatured in your post.

I really enjoy Disney parks. Grew up going to Disneyland. These days we go to WDW. I’ve been on the rides in question hundreds of times. I enjoy them. I also see certain scenes as racially insensitive and have come to recognize the poor representation of People of Color. So now I’m for the changes. These things are not what makes Disney special, and I want everyone to be able to enjoy the parks as much as I do.

 

[Brer Panther]

What do you say to those of us who enjoy the current version of Splash Mountain but, despite being personally sad to see it go, understand why Disney has chosen to retheme it? I ask because I think we’re rather more numerous than the kinds of individuals you’ve caricatured in your post.

Seems like most of you have made those same arguments.

 

[_caleb]

Seems like most of you have made those same arguments.

Seems like you make every thread about Splash Mountain.

 

[DisneyHead123]

The narrative still doesn’t make sense to me. I’d love for someone to explain, but I’d probably need a translator who can break it down for me?

Here are some things I commonly hear around here. Maybe I’m misunderstanding, I’m not trying to build a straw man, this is genuinely how things are coming across:

• “Disney only cares about money, but they’re doing things that are expensive but nobody wants?”
• “Disney lies when they say they care about inclusion and diversity. They just say that to get PR points with the woke mob who doesn’t go to the parks anyway.”
• Only a handful of people on Twitter have a problem with certain scenes in some rides, but despite investing tons of time and money in market research, Disney is dumb and thinks a few loud woke “elites” represent the majority of their audience.
• “Nobody complains about racially insensitive show scenes. But if they did, Disney shouldn’t listen to them because these are timeless classics that don’t offend me. Disney should listen to my complaints about the changes, though, or that’s the last straw for me! I’ll take my family to Universal.”
• “Disney is changing things because of the change.org petition to change Splash, but the petition against changing Splash had WAY more signatures.“
• “Disney has the right to change whatever it wants but all these changes are being forced down out throats by the elites and the government is censoring Disney’s free speech.”
• “There is nothing racist about __________. You don’t get to decide what’s racist, I do!”
• ”Black people who complain about representation and insensitivity in the parks are way too sensitive. We should not listen to them. Also I have a Black friend, and he says he’s not offended at all by the Jungle Cruise.“
• “This is just the beginning. Next they’re coming for Carousel of Progress,
• “Since Disney does business in China, and China abuses human rights, making changes to be racially sensitive in the American parks isn’t worthwhile.”

Maybe I’ve completely misunderstood. I promise I’m not trying to misrepresent anyone with these. I don’t think I’m a complete idiot, but most of this does not make sense to me. I genuinely want to understand this mindset and would appreciate help from anyone who might be willing to try.

Is it the same people making contradictory statements? If not you're probably hearing a whirlwind of different narratives coming from various different perspectives.

Personally, my first thought was... about 1 in 5 Black people in the US live in poverty. Black men make up about 6% of the overall population but 34% of the prison population. The life expectancy is about 4 years lower for Black people in the US. It just doesn't seem reasonable to infer that if you did a poll of Black people in America and asked what they wanted from Disney, that most would say "Get rid of that native animatronic on the Jungle Cruise ride!". I think it's questionable whether the average Black person would particularly identify with a native on a ride who happens to share the same skin color, actually - I don't know that Black children would think that has anything to do with them any more than a white child would feel like a caricature of a warlike Viking or medieval executioner represented them or their culture because their skin was a similar shade.

That said, my first thought was also that it should be removed, just because there's a cultural consensus that this is inappropriate and yes, offensive. That's a bit different than saying it's really helping minorities, or we know for sure that this is something people of color even care about in significant numbers, or that it's fostering an atmosphere of inclusion (that is certainly possible, but I'd have to be convinced by actual data on that point - to my mind real inclusion is usually about creating a fun, relaxed atmosphere with things that people care about and enjoy, vs. worrying about what could offend people) but just that it's something that we as a culture are not cool with.

Looking at the various comments here, it occurs to me that to many, this might be symbolic in the way that a flag or statue is symbolic, or the way that having a particular book included in a library is symbolic. It's not really about the thing itself. By way of an extreme example - if China bought a bunch of real estate in Florida and they wanted to fly the Chinese flag at Disney, it's not that the flag itself, a piece of fabric in the air, would have much influence over anyone's quality of life. But it would still be extremely important to people, of course, at a symbolic level. So I guess this is more about symbolism to people. I think people see this move as an endorsement of Woke Culture (which I do have serious reservations about - I think it has admirable elements but also problematically elitist elements - although I don't think this move actually constitutes Woke Culture, I think it's far more anodyne and middle of the road than that) - the equivalent of flying a little Woke Flag at Disney. Again, I disagree, but I think this is why people have such strong feelings about it.

 

[DCLcruiser]

You know, I still really don't care about the Jungle Cruise changes, but I'm getting tired of all of this strawmaning anyone who's against changing Splash Mountain or the Jungle Cruise.


If the theme of Splash Mountain doesn't matter, why are we arguing about changing it at all? Also, the Brer Rabbit plushes in the gift shop sell last time I checked.

You are arguing on a WDW board because you are nostalgic about the ride, the theme and the characters. Your username is a celebration of the characters. The average guest at WDW has never seen the movie and would not stop riding because it was Splash Mountain with Tiana or Buzz or Rescuers or Chip and Dale. They will just as happily buy any stuffed animal related to the ride.

It's a log flume ride that get's people wet on a hot day. That is really all it is.

 

[GimpYancIent]

You are arguing on a WDW board because you are nostalgic about the ride, the theme and the characters. Your username is a celebration of the characters. The average guest at WDW has never seen the movie and would not stop riding because it was Splash Mountain with Tiana or Buzz or Rescuers or Chip and Dale. They will just as happily buy any stuffed animal related to the ride.

It's a log flume ride that get's people wet on a hot day. That is really all it is.

Yessss! By all means enjoy the rides, enjoy simply being at WDW! The people on the megaphones shouting their various narratives are actually canceling each other out, it's all become worthless background noise. Annoying background noise.

 

[Brer Panther]

You are arguing on a WDW board because you are nostalgic about the ride, the theme and the characters. Your username is a celebration of the characters. The average guest at WDW has never seen the movie and would not stop riding because it was Splash Mountain with Tiana or Buzz or Rescuers or Chip and Dale. They will just as happily buy any stuffed animal related to the ride.

It's a log flume ride that get's people wet on a hot day. That is really all it is.

If it's just a log flume ride that gets people wet on a hot day, why does it matter whether or not it's based on Song of the South?

 

[Kram Sacul]

I’m curious - can we assume that people championing changes to these attractions have only ever been on them once ever? I mean after that first experience, since the problematic elements are so obvious it must have offended them to the point of never riding the attraction again? Is that a safe assumption?

I think you already know the answer.

 

[WDW Pro]

The narrative still doesn’t make sense to me. I’d love for someone to explain, but I’d probably need a translator who can break it down for me?

Here are some things I commonly hear around here. Maybe I’m misunderstanding, I’m not trying to build a straw man, this is genuinely how things are coming across:

• “Disney only cares about money, but they’re doing things that are expensive but nobody wants?”

Disney has a two-tonged approach - bow to the cultural edicts of communist China while simultaneously going as progressive as possible in the west (mostly to protect against a Disney+ boycott).

• “Disney lies when they say they care about inclusion and diversity. They just say that to get PR points with the woke mob who doesn’t go to the parks anyway.”

Disney is most certainly a very, very liberal company at the top. They're also global corporatists which means they turn off their ultra liberal viewpoints whenever dealing with Asia. So in the US, they care about transphobia, while simultaneously in China they thank governments running genocidal concentration camps and slave labor for allowing them to film near the prison complexes.

• Only a handful of people on Twitter have a problem with certain scenes in some rides, but despite investing tons of time and money in market research, Disney is dumb and thinks a few loud woke “elites” represent the majority of their audience.

The Twitter brigade does have significant sway with starting sociopolitical campaigns against companies. Disney's stock is entirely inflated at the moment by future speculation into Disney+... they'll protect it at all costs.

• “Nobody complains about racially insensitive show scenes. But if they did, Disney shouldn’t listen to them because these are timeless classics that don’t offend me. Disney should listen to my complaints about the changes, though, or that’s the last straw for me! I’ll take my family to Universal.”

That's not a real critique anyone is making. Don't cartoonize the people you disagree with just so you can score imaginary points.

• “Disney is changing things because of the change.org petition to change Splash, but the petition against changing Splash had WAY more signatures.“

Disney made the Splash announcement entirely to keep them on the side of BLM and protect their company (specifically streaming service) from criticism.

• “Disney has the right to change whatever it wants but all these changes are being forced down out throats by the elites and the government is censoring Disney’s free speech.”

I've never heard anyone claim the government is censoring Disney's speech. With Bob Iger attempting to be the US ambassador to China, Disney is closer to being the government than being oppressed by the government. Also, Nancy Pelosi's family just bought enormous numbers of Disney stock, so it's hard to see how anyone would think Disney is under the boot.

• “There is nothing racist about __________. You don’t get to decide what’s racist, I do!”

Again, stop cartoonizing those with whom you disagree.

• ”Black people who complain about representation and insensitivity in the parks are way too sensitive. We should not listen to them. Also I have a Black friend, and he says he’s not offended at all by the Jungle Cruise.“

I had never heard a single person complain about the Jungle Cruise of any race, ethnicity, or creed before the past two years. I also find the terms "black" and "white" to be vestigial terms from ethnic hierarchical understandings of a Euro-centric past. When we refer to ourselves as "white" or "black", we're artificially separating ourselves within a psychological construct using the most disparate terms possible.

• “This is just the beginning. Next they’re coming for Carousel of Progress,

Not next, but in the future, yes. Next is Peter Pan.

• “Since Disney does business in China, and China abuses human rights, making changes to be racially sensitive in the American parks isn’t worthwhile.”

Again cartoonizing the arguments. The actual argument is that since Disney sees no problem with filming near concentration camps, thanking governments that use concentration camp and slave labor, and since Disney sees no problem using products made by industrialized slave labor (because it's cheaper)... the whole "we're doing this to be sensitive to people's needs" schtick rings hollow.

Maybe I’ve completely misunderstood. I promise I’m not trying to misrepresent anyone with these. I don’t think I’m a complete idiot, but most of this does not make sense to me. I genuinely want to understand this mindset and would appreciate help from anyone who might be willing to try.

Glad to help.

 

[Touchdown]

Why are we focused on Splash in the Jungle Cruise thread?

The native attack sequence has always been uncomfortable for me since I became an adult, it’s incredibly racist and entirely inappropriate. No Africans ever acted like this. Trader Sam, I’m more on the fence about (especially in Disney World) but the native village sequence is Rin Tintin in Africa racist and is long overdue for a change. I can’t believe we are arguing about this?

 

[DCLcruiser]

If it's just a log flume ride that gets people wet on a hot day, why does it matter whether or not it's based on Song of the South?

It wouldn’t matter if it was the Jungle Cruise or if there was a Coca Cola cart themed on SotS, it all has to go. That movies should never have been used in the parks. We can’t take back the movie, but they don’t release it and now they need to remove the theme from the ride.

It’s called Splash Mountain, not Brer Mountain, not Brer Rabbit’s Great Escape nor Slow River Cruise through a Thicket.

It’s Splash to emphasize the major reason for going on the ride, the drop! I’m sorry but the scenes and song are just fluff that can be exchanged for another catchy tune and theme.

 

[Magicart87]

It wouldn’t matter if there was a Coca Cola cart themed on SotS, it all has to go. That movies should never have been used in the parks. We can’t take back the movie, but they don’t release it and now they need to remove the theme from the ride.

It’s called Splash Mountain, not Brer Mountain, not Brer Rabbit’s Great Escape nor Slow River Cruise through a Thicket.

It’s Splash to emphasize the major reason for going on the ride, the drop! I’m sorry but the scenes and song are just fluff that can be exchanged for another catchy tune and theme.

Do you honestly think it will receive the same level of detail once it gets Tiana'd?

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

It’s Splash to emphasize the major reason for going on the ride, the drop!

It’s actually splash to reference an Eisner IP that has nothing to do with the attraction.

 

[DCLcruiser]

Do you honestly think it will receive the same level of detail once it gets Tiana'd?

I hope. Frankly the wedding scene and river boat scenes from Tiana are plug and play into the current version. Almost like this idea was premeditated.

It’s actually splash to reference an Eisner IP that has nothing to do with the attraction.

I understand the Tom Hanks movie association but the name works because the primary attribute is the drop

 

[DCLcruiser]

So, S.E.A (Society of Explorers and Adventurers), that needs a show or movie and to be more prominent in the Jungle Cruise ride.

...maybe it is associated with the new movie?