Jungle Cruise Re-Imagining

[_caleb]

maybe, i'm not a fortune teller. though i can say that seeing the smiling faces of kids going on splash mountain and jungle cruise every time i go would mean that they are not offended by anything they see. so unless somebody is telling them to be offended i dont see kids growing up to hate disney because of things like splash mountain.

i agree with your examples and think things have changed for better but i dont think what your describing applies to things like these disney changes.

So if kids aren’t offended by racial insensitivity, that racial insensitivity is ok?

 

[rylouisbo]

So if kids aren’t offended by racial insensitivity, that racial insensitivity is ok?

follow the train of conversation, not at all what was said or implied

also, whats racially insensitive to you is not for most others.

 

[RSoxNo1]

This refurb will take a shorter amount of time compared to the average "major" refurb schedule. I could easily see it being started and ended in the year at WDW. This will start, and likely end, before splash.

It did seem that this would take place this year. I deduced that the fall makes sense and it probably should be in the 2 month range. Does that sound about right?

 

[_caleb]

follow the train of conversation, not at all what was said or implied

also, whats racially insensitive to you is not for most others.

Um, didn’t you literally said that every time you go to the parks, kids are smiling because they’re not offended by what they see on the two rides that Disney is changing due to racial insensitivity?

maybe, i'm not a fortune teller. though i can say that seeing the smiling faces of kids going on splash mountain and jungle cruise every time i go would mean that they are not offended by anything they see. so unless somebody is telling them to be offended i dont see kids growing up to hate disney because of things like splash mountain.

What makes you think ”most others” agree with you?

 

[rylouisbo]

Um, didn’t you literally said that every time you go to the parks, kids are smiling because they’re not offended by what they see on the two rides that Disney is changing due to racial insensitivity?

um yes every time i go to the parks kids are smiling on splash mountain and jungle cruise... when you go are they coming off the rides screaming about cultural sensitivity or something? what are you talking about? lol

What makes you think ”most others” agree with you?

as i already said, the fact those two scary mean rides are some of the most popular at the parks and have been for decades says a lot.
also, disney would definately have released data showing how people dont like those rides if they had it as it would have been their reasoning for changing them much easier.
also, as i pointed out there was a change. org petition to get splash mountain changed, then another that followed wanting to keep the ride as is. the one wanting to keep the ride as is surpassed the original one in a few days...
not a scientific study but more to back up my stance than there is to say that most people wanted those changes.

 

[_caleb]

um yes every time i go to the parks kids are smiling on splash mountain and jungle cruise... when you go are they coming off the rides screaming about cultural sensitivity or something? what are you talking about? lol

as i already said, the fact those two scary mean rides are some of the most popular at the parks and have been for decades says a lot.
also, disney would definately have released data showing how people dont like those rides if they had it as it would have been their reasoning for changing them much easier.
also, as i pointed out there was a change. org petition to get splash mountain changed, then another that followed wanting to keep the ride as is. the one wanting to keep the ride as is surpassed the original one in a few days...
not a scientific study but more to back up my stance than there is to say that most people wanted those changes.

Nevermind.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

What makes you think ”most others” agree with you?

I won't speak for the poster you're quoting, but when the crowds keep lining up for these rides, it's hard to argue they're bothered by them in any significant way.

Disney has spent several years now cultivating an audience that is largely uncritical, anti-intellectual and uninformed. Even those who say they're big fans often dismiss the parks they love as being unimportant whenever criticisms about them or their operations are brought up (PC related or not). The expectations they have for Disney are pretty low and that includes everything from food and $100 dessert parties to how accurate a cultural depiction is (or more importantly, whether it amuses their 5 year old). It's unlikely this same audience is really knowledgeable or concerned about social issues.

Whether Disney should make their parks more diverse by removing elements that likely would be considered in poor taste if built today, is a different argument than whether or not their audience is really pushing for these changes to happen. When Disneyland updated their Jungle Cruise in 2005 and Peter Pan's Flight in 2017 the decision was made then to keep those ride's respective natives and Indians...and there was no blowback despite it being obvious at the time that they were dated cultural depictions from many decades prior. You'll have to forgive me if I think waiting until 2021 to start making these changes is a sign that either corporate or the majority of guests are genuinely concerned and have nothing but the best intentions.

I'd say they'd probably keep coming either way. Does that mean that Disney can't or shouldn't make an effort at better representation? No, but the audience's moral compass is usually dictated by corporate and if Disney were attempting the opposite of "inclusion", the ardent fan base would just as passionately defend them or dismiss any allegations that they were promoting racism.

EDIT: I recognize the above is a very unpopular opinion, but I feel there's more truth to it than many here would care to admit. There are many guests and who unfortunately perpetuate a number of negative stereotypes and Disney has been just as willing to embrace these customers because their money was seen as good as anyone else's. I think its made the parks worse for a variety of reasons and will only make it more difficult for the company to been taken seriously if they try to take up social issues.

 

[yensidtlaw1969]

heres the thing i'm not sure you are getting about people arguing. we've seen the opposing opinion, i've listened to comments like the one you posted, i understand what they are trying to say but... i disagree with it and i've given many points to rebut what you and others have been saying. Somehow though it doesnt seem as though youre actually listening to my point of view and simply demanding i hear yours.

there a quite few things that almost all of us would agree on. like its good to have diverse characters and rides, its good to have different races/religions/ideas represented. just want to make that clear.

what we differ on is the rhetoric and approach to doing this.

I'm not accusing you of anything, since I haven't kept up with this thread, but it's worth remembering that part of genuine allyship is putting people before the rhetoric.

If you really agreed that something needed to change, would you let the way it was said come between you and working for a solution?

 

[rylouisbo]

Nevermind.

 

[_caleb]

I won't speak for the poster you're quoting, but when the crowds keep lining up for these rides, it's hard to argue they're bothered by them in any significant way.

Disney has spent several years now cultivating an audience that is largely uncritical, anti-intellectual and uninformed. Even those who say they're big fans often dismiss the parks they love as being unimportant whenever criticisms about them or their operations are brought up (PC related or not). The expectations they have for Disney are pretty low and that includes everything from food and $100 dessert parties to how accurate a cultural depiction is (or more importantly, whether it amuses their 5 year old). It's unlikely this same audience is really knowledgeable or concerned about social issues.

Whether Disney should make their parks more diverse by removing elements that likely would be considered in poor taste if built today, is a different argument than whether or not their audience is really pushing for these changes to happen. When Disneyland updated their Jungle Cruise in 2005 and Peter Pan's Flight in 2017 the decision was made then to keep those ride's respective natives and Indians...and there was no blowback despite it being obvious at the time that they were dated cultural depictions from many decades prior. You'll have to forgive me if I think waiting until 2021 to start making these changes is a sign that either corporate or the majority of guests are genuinely concerned and have nothing but the best intentions.

I'd say they'd probably keep coming either way. Does that mean that Disney can't or shouldn't make an effort at better representation? No, but the audience's moral compass is usually dictated by corporate and if Disney were attempting the opposite of "inclusion", the ardent fan base would just as passionately defend them or dismiss any allegations that they were promoting racism.

EDIT: I recognize the above is a very unpopular opinion, but I feel there's more truth to it than many here would care to admit. There are many guests and who unfortunately perpetuate a number of negative stereotypes and Disney has been just as willing to embrace these customers because their money was seen as good as anyone else's. I think its made the parks worse for a variety of reasons and will only make it more difficult for the company to been taken seriously if they try to take up social issues.

I actually agree with a lot of what you’ve written here, but with a couple key differences:

• The vast majority of visitors to Disney parks seem to be “uncritical, anti-intellectual, and uninformed.“ But this only means that these people don’t think about, understand, or know about any aspects of the parks that are racially insensitive. I truly believe that if people knew about this stuff—if it was explained to them the way folks like @raven24 and others have done over on the DL boards—they would not be ok with it (hence the wild popularity of all the “10 Racist Scenes Disney Doesn’t Want You To Know About!!” clickbait content online). You seem to think that if audiences knew, they’d be indifferent.
• The cynical view—that Disney does not care at all about racially sensitive representation, but only money, and pander to the “woke mob”—requires that you believe Disney has only been lying about everything they’ve said about diversity, inclusion, and being welcoming all guests. It’s a huge conspiracy theory. The woke mob cannot simultaneously be a tiny vocal minority who is out of sync with the vast majority AND ALSO the target audience Disney just wants to shake down for cash. Why would Disney be “afraid” to offend a handful of complainers yet so bold as to ignore the masses who are against all the proposed changes and see nothing wrong with Splash Mountain or Jungle Cruise?
• You seem to think (correct me if I’m wrong) the ONLY thing that’s changed at Disney in the last few years that might motivate them to suddenly be willing to make racially sensitive changes is that it’s somehow cool right now to be against racism and Disney just wants to cash in on the trend. But a lot has changed! Disney leadership, for one! The generation of Imagineers who designed and built these attractions (and, sadly, most of the Imagineers who revered those Imagineers) are gone. The new generation doesn’t have a problem making changes. Also, the culture is changing. People are becoming increasingly aware of racial insensitivity—it’s not just a vocal liberal minority anymore—and Disney, who might be considered “progressive” in some ways, but has never been a trendy company—is changing as well.
• For some reason, members on these boards seem to be stuck with this idea that Disney should operate as a democracy. Whatever the majority wants, that’s what Disney should give them. But Disney’s actions over the last few years make it clear to me that these changes are more than just PR. They have an agenda and they’re working toward that agenda despite great expense, PR blowback, and little evidence of financial benefit.

 

[ᗩLᘿᑕ ✨ ᗩζᗩᗰ]

But Disney’s actions over the last few years make it clear to me that these changes are more than just PR. They have an agenda and they’re working toward that agenda despite great expense, PR blowback, and little evidence of financial benefit.

As a shareholder that scares me!

 

[rylouisbo]

As a shareholder that scares me!

right? but i dont actually think they are getting any financial blowback (or pr blowback if anything they are getting praise from the media) from the changes because nobody really cares that they are adding tiana or updating jungle cruise, the only thing controversial is the rhetoric disney uses. if they announced the changes just talking about the updates and not the supposed intention behind it then very few people would seriously care. i think most people dont agree with why disney is saying they are changing, and really like how they are now, but dont really care in the long run as the end product will still be a fun ride. which amounts to disney just saying things so the executives at disney can tell all their elite friends how much amazing "progress" disney is making. lol

 

[GimpYancIent]

I actually agree with a lot of what you’ve written here, but with a couple key differences:

• The vast majority of visitors to Disney parks seem to be “uncritical, anti-intellectual, and uninformed.“ But this only means that these people don’t think about, understand, or know about any aspects of the parks that are racially insensitive. I truly believe that if people knew about this stuff—if it was explained to them the way folks like @raven24 and others have done over on the DL boards—they would not be ok with it (hence the wild popularity of all the “10 Racist Scenes Disney Doesn’t Want You To Know About!!” clickbait content online). You seem to think that if audiences knew, they’d be indifferent.
• The cynical view—that Disney does not care at all about racially sensitive representation, but only money, and pander to the “woke mob”—requires that you believe Disney has only been lying about everything they’ve said about diversity, inclusion, and being welcoming all guests. It’s a huge conspiracy theory. The woke mob cannot simultaneously be a tiny vocal minority who is out of sync with the vast majority AND ALSO the target audience Disney just wants to shake down for cash. Why would Disney be “afraid” to offend a handful of complainers yet so bold as to ignore the masses who are against all the proposed changes and see nothing wrong with Splash Mountain or Jungle Cruise?
• You seem to think (correct me if I’m wrong) the ONLY thing that’s changed at Disney in the last few years that might motivate them to suddenly be willing to make racially sensitive changes is that it’s somehow cool right now to be against racism and Disney just wants to cash in on the trend. But a lot has changed! Disney leadership, for one! The generation of Imagineers who designed and built these attractions (and, sadly, most of the Imagineers who revered those Imagineers) are gone. The new generation doesn’t have a problem making changes. Also, the culture is changing. People are becoming increasingly aware of racial insensitivity—it’s not just a vocal liberal minority anymore—and Disney, who might be considered “progressive” in some ways, but has never been a trendy company—is changing as well.
• For some reason, members on these boards seem to be stuck with this idea that Disney should operate as a democracy. Whatever the majority wants, that’s what Disney should give them. But Disney’s actions over the last few years make it clear to me that these changes are more than just PR. They have an agenda and they’re working toward that agenda despite great expense, PR blowback, and little evidence of financial benefit.

Impressive dialogue. Yes, Disney is a money making, for profit entertainment conglomerate. That's what Disney is and does. All the racial connotations and references to masses, Nah. "The masses have not been voicing what a few have been voicing over megaphones to make it sound like masses." Over the years me, myself and I (all three of us) have heard a lot of commentary about Splash, the ride, not the theming. People enjoy the ride! As for the movie seen it never cared about it and never found ZipiDi Doo Da toe tapping. Splash can be themed in many ways, guess what, people will still enjoy the ride. Jungle cruise is a classic never took anything to have racial overtones. The eventual addition and multiple changes to the rhino and the people up a tree scene gives me a chuckle it does not matter if the characters up the tree are explorers or the Swedish bikini team the over all scene is humorous not reality. Its about entertainment, diversion, escape, some fun.

 

[DCLcruiser]

maybe, i'm not a fortune teller. though i can say that seeing the smiling faces of kids going on splash mountain and jungle cruise every time i go would mean that they are not offended by anything they see. so unless somebody is telling them to be offended i dont see kids growing up to hate disney because of things like splash mountain.

i agree with your examples and think things have changed for better but i dont think what your describing applies to things like these disney changes.

I'm going to separate my response into two thoughts:

1) Splash is primarily popular because of the large drop into water on a hot day, not because of the characters from a movie that 99% of guests have not seen. Jungle Cruise is popular (is it really though?) because of the skippers and jungle animals, not because of the depiction colonialism and caricatures of indigenous people or minorities. The fact that, as you said, the kids are smiling and don't notice, shows that changing the themes, scenes or depictions will not make a material change to the rides, therefore, updating them to be more open-minded will not have a negative impact on enjoyment of your average guest.

2) Kids, today, are learning to be open-minded, to accept that their friend has same-sex parents, that minorities and biracial families are depicted in commercials (remember a few years ago when Cheerios got in trouble over a biracial commercial? Now that is the default "family" on TV commercials), that animals should not be in cages or tanks (SeaWorld issues), that people are not property and that we are a nation of immigrants and our diversity makes us stronger. If Disney does not reflect that, they will seem outdated and out of touch. Disney will be left behind by future generations.

If wondering, I am a straight, married, white guy (Italian, French, Austrian and Slovak) and a moderate-Republican (since I was 18). I just realize that change is ok and necessary.

As a shareholder that scares me!

What would be scary is if DIS did not change with the times. Are you, a shareholder, familiar with ESG? You probably are, but let me just explain why it matters with this topic.

Environmental, Social, Governance, are areas that investors are taking into consideration more and more today. Today, you can invest in ESG Funds which are comprised of companies who reflect positively on ESG ideals. How do they impact the environment today/tomorrow, do they take care of their communities, employees and impact society, are they governed by a board of directors that is diverse, varied and do investors have a voice?

Some people believe that not being ESG positive risks a company facing future government regulation, lawsuits and a negative view of investors. This view, today, is already changing investment strategies.

In the near future there could be major indexes made up of ONLY companies with a high ESG score. Maybe the S&P500 adjusts the rules to be a constituent to require a high ESG score, or kicks out current members with low ESG scores. If in the future DIS is considered to not be ESG qualified they could be left out of major indexes and risk reduced investment by pensions, funds and individuals.

Good PR today from small changes is nice, but this is what could be detrimental to the company in the future.

 

[_caleb]

The narrative still doesn’t make sense to me. I’d love for someone to explain, but I’d probably need a translator who can break it down for me?

Here are some things I commonly hear around here. Maybe I’m misunderstanding, I’m not trying to build a straw man, this is genuinely how things are coming across:

• “Disney only cares about money, but they’re doing things that are expensive but nobody wants?”
• “Disney lies when they say they care about inclusion and diversity. They just say that to get PR points with the woke mob who doesn’t go to the parks anyway.”
• Only a handful of people on Twitter have a problem with certain scenes in some rides, but despite investing tons of time and money in market research, Disney is dumb and thinks a few loud woke “elites” represent the majority of their audience.
• “Nobody complains about racially insensitive show scenes. But if they did, Disney shouldn’t listen to them because these are timeless classics that don’t offend me. Disney should listen to my complaints about the changes, though, or that’s the last straw for me! I’ll take my family to Universal.”
• “Disney is changing things because of the change.org petition to change Splash, but the petition against changing Splash had WAY more signatures.“
• “Disney has the right to change whatever it wants but all these changes are being forced down out throats by the elites and the government is censoring Disney’s free speech.”
• “There is nothing racist about __________. You don’t get to decide what’s racist, I do!”
• ”Black people who complain about representation and insensitivity in the parks are way too sensitive. We should not listen to them. Also I have a Black friend, and he says he’s not offended at all by the Jungle Cruise.“
• “This is just the beginning. Next they’re coming for Carousel of Progress,
• “Since Disney does business in China, and China abuses human rights, making changes to be racially sensitive in the American parks isn’t worthwhile.”

Maybe I’ve completely misunderstood. I promise I’m not trying to misrepresent anyone with these. I don’t think I’m a complete idiot, but most of this does not make sense to me. I genuinely want to understand this mindset and would appreciate help from anyone who might be willing to try.

 

[DCLcruiser]

The narrative still doesn’t make sense to me. I’d love for someone to explain, but I’d probably need a translator who can break it down for me?

Here are some things I commonly hear around here. Maybe I’m misunderstanding, I’m not trying to build a straw man, this is genuinely how things are coming across:

• “Disney only cares about money, but they’re doing things that are expensive but nobody wants?”
• “Disney lies when they say they care about inclusion and diversity. They just say that to get PR points with the woke mob who doesn’t go to the parks anyway.”
• Only a handful of people on Twitter have a problem with certain scenes in some rides, but despite investing tons of time and money in market research, Disney is dumb and thinks a few loud woke “elites” represent the majority of their audience.
• “Nobody complains about racially insensitive show scenes. But if they did, Disney shouldn’t listen to them because these are timeless classics that don’t offend me. Disney should listen to my complaints about the changes, though, or that’s the last straw for me! I’ll take my family to Universal.”
• “Disney is changing things because of the change.org petition to change Splash, but the petition against changing Splash had WAY more signatures.“
• “Disney has the right to change whatever it wants but all these changes are being forced down out throats by the elites and the government is censoring Disney’s free speech.”
• “There is nothing racist about __________. You don’t get to decide what’s racist, I do!”
• ”Black people who complain about representation and insensitivity in the parks are way too sensitive. We should not listen to them. Also I have a Black friend, and he says he’s not offended at all by the Jungle Cruise.“
• “This is just the beginning. Next they’re coming for Carousel of Progress,
• “Since Disney does business in China, and China abuses human rights, making changes to be racially sensitive in the American parks isn’t worthwhile.”

Maybe I’ve completely misunderstood. I promise I’m not trying to misrepresent anyone with these. I don’t think I’m a complete idiot, but most of this does not make sense to me. I genuinely want to understand this mindset and would appreciate help from anyone who might be willing to try.

I'll be blunt:

People are afraid of change, or afraid of losing what "power" or "superiority" they have/believe they have.

If changes ruin nostalgia, they aren't happy because the way they remember it was the best way. (I'm an only child, I am very familiar with that).

If changes alter power or social structure, they aren't happy because other people used to be "lesser" than them. This has happened throughout human history: first, a select few dominated, then poor white people got a say, then minorities got a little, then women were welcomed, then everyone got into a social structure based on jobs/education, and now we are trying to fix it (kind of).

If changes are made to appease another voice, they aren't happy because a few "cry babies" are ruining the fun for the rest of us. Being PC is giving in and not standing up for the past or the majority rule.

Some are genuinely racist, or have deep-seated beliefs that they don't realize are ignorant and closed-minded (unconscious bias).

 

[Disneyson]

I think this is honestly one of the most intelligent discussions I’ve seen on these boards. I honestly think there’s nothing more to say on the subject.

Pivoting for a moment, do you suppose that the boats will get onboard music/narration aka Kilimanjaro Safaris/Great Movie Ride?

I wonder what that might do to the ride. It might do what it did to Movie Ride: fine when you have incredibly poor skippers, but takes a lot of charm out of the attraction. Or else it might fill some of the dead space, especially with the Unload traffic jam?

I wonder if they’ll be talking to someone like Alberta Falls or Shrunken Ned (Albert Falls is presumably dead, right, considering that there’s a waterfall named after him and Alberta, in Skipper Canteen, keeps talking about what her grandfather Albert used to like to eat?).

 

[Animaniac93-98]

Pivoting for a moment, do you suppose that the boats will get onboard music/narration aka Kilimanjaro Safaris/Great Movie Ride?

Onboard audio was added to the Tokyo Disneyland version in 2016. The skipper still does his/her whole spiel, but music accompanies certain segments. Other than the decision to include a really specific piece of Lion King music for the African veldt, it's doesn't detract from the scenes.

I could see narration being added like in KS as you said, but would prefer just a bit of music here and there.

 

[_caleb]

Onboard audio was added to the Tokyo Disneyland version in 2016. The skipper still does his/her whole spiel, but music accompanies certain segments. Other than the decision to include a really specific piece of Lion King music for the African veldt, it's doesn't detract from the scenes.

I could see narration being added like in KS as you said, but would prefer just a bit of music here and there.

I hope the onboard audio isn’t a REPLACEMENT for the Skippers’ spiel. I agree that the Skipper’s performance can make or break the experience, and I can’t imagine repeating that spiel for hours and hours every day, but a prerecorded approach would not seem like an improvement.

 

[Marden]

I hope the onboard audio isn’t a REPLACEMENT for the Skippers’ spiel. I agree that the Skipper’s performance can make or break the experience, and I can’t imagine repeating that spiel for hours and hours every day, but a prerecorded approach would not seem like an improvement.

100%. For me, the cast member IS the reason to go on Jungle Cruise. The boats/set pieces are just the stage on which the show takes place.