Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[GoofGoof]

I used to think, “Hey, people are free to do whatever they want, let them go to Disney World during a pandemic! I don’t think it’s wise, but I’ll just stay home.” But now I’m not so neutral. Seeing all those people willingly intermingling while the virus spreads out of control leaves me to conclude that all those people are selfish, foolish, and ignorant.

I’m not opposed to Disney having WDW open. I don’t think it’s a good idea for people to be traveling out of state, particularly with cases spiking most places, but that’s up to individuals and states not Disney to regulate. I think the highest risk part of WDW being open is the indoor dining. Walking around the parks and even the hotels seems like less risk to me. There are a lot of other things going on that seem a lot worse.

As far as WDW expanding capacity, I just don’t see how they can do it. We are already seeing long lines and crowds gathering. If they attempt to expand more they lose their ability to keep things safe. I think we’ve seen just about the most they can do right now. We will see.

 

[_caleb]

I’m not opposed to Disney having WDW open. I don’t think it’s a good idea for people to be traveling out of state, particularly with cases spiking most places, but that’s up to individuals and states not Disney to regulate. I think the highest risk part of WDW being open is the indoor dining. Walking around the parks and even the hotels seems like less risk to me. There are a lot of other things going on that seem a lot worse.

As far as WDW expanding capacity, I just don’t see how they can do it. We are already seeing long lines and crowds gathering. If they attempt to expand more they lose their ability to keep things safe. I think we’ve seen just about the most they can do right now. We will see.

Like I said, I think we agree that it’s not wise for Disney to expand capacity.

But I’m done with “it’s up to individuals and States.“ That approach and mentality is putting us all at risk. And I’m not willing to let Disney off the hook simply because they put stickers on the ground and plastic dividers on rides. By opening, they are enabling the sort of “individual choice” that is killing people. They’re showing that they will gladly take irresponsible guests’ money even if it puts at-risk people (CMs and even people who don’t go to the parks) at even greater risk.

Indoor dining might be the highest-risk activity at Disney parks, but we don’t know what the risks are of all the activities in the parks. The recommendations for measures to keep us safe as we do essential things (like grocery shopping or essential work) were not designed for leisure activities like riding rides and eating at restaurants and watching cavalcades.

 

[Disstevefan1]

I think is up to Disney to stay open or close, not the state.

You have “experts” that advise the state and you have other “experts” that advise Disney, so it’s expert VS. expert, and while I can’t speak for motivation of the state’s experts, I think we can assume Disney is making the best decision for its most important entity, the shareholder.

We can’t assume Disney would say “stay open at all costs”, because after consulting their experts, it may be in the best interest of the shareholder to close.

 

[FeelsSoGoodToBeBad]

Dear Disney if you’re going to make announcements about not eating and drinking while in the queues for lines, please remove your concession stands from the queue.

Considering the queues now snake all over the park, is it more a matter of removing the queue from the concession stand?

 

[oceanbreeze77]

And apparently these people think it's over:

Literally every media outlet was saying almost every hour that people need to take precautions. Every hour I heard how we have been hitting record numbers and that the celebrations need to be safer.

 

[Parker in NYC]

I'm loving that all the Trump supporters now apparently care about Covid and following the guidelines.

See? We can all come together ❤

I called it. Maybe this will finally be the key!

 

[FeelsSoGoodToBeBad]

Literally every media outlet was saying almost every hour that people need to take precautions. Every hour I heard how we have been hitting record numbers and that the celebrations need to be safer.

What strikes me is that so many people associate non-compliance with mask wearing with Trump supporters, but we're seeing huge gatherings with poor mask compliance from those who apparently voted for Biden (or at least hoped he'd be elected). I would say there is there better compliance than we've seen at Trump rallies, but this isn't what I expected to see. Makes it more obvious this issue is about more than political affiliation.

 

[_caleb]

I think is up to Disney to stay open or close, not the state.

You have “experts” that advise the state and you have other “experts” that advise Disney, so it’s expert VS. expert, and while I can’t speak for motivation of the state’s experts, I think we can assume Disney is making the best decision for its most important entity, the shareholder.

We can’t assume Disney would say “stay open at all costs”, because after consulting their experts, it may be in the best interest of the shareholder to close.

The only reasons Disney would close would be 1) the government forces them to close (see CA) or 2) there’s a massive COVID outbreak that can clearly be traced to the parks and NOT attributed to guests circumventing their COVID protocols.

Sure you can find “experts” to say pretty much anything you like. But the public aren’t the clients for Disney’s experts, Disney is.

And we’re not exactly sure who the State of Florida’s clients are.

 

[oceanbreeze77]

What strikes me is that so many people associate non-compliance with mask wearing with Trump supporters, but we're seeing huge gatherings with poor mask compliance from those who apparently voted for Biden (or at least hoped he'd be elected). I would say there is there better compliance than we've seen at Trump rallies, but this isn't what I expected to see. Makes it more obvious this issue is about more than political affiliation.

I think overall its a division based on Age. Younger people have been more reluctant to wear masks regardless of who they support. Yes you have a subdivision based on politics, but overall its the 'eh I'm young' attitude. The point of criticizing trump events was that they were OFFICIAL events held by the leader of the free world. Why are there no guidelines in place at an OFFICIAL event???

I agree that compliance should have been higher amongst this group of people, but most of the people out celebrating were young, which is an area we see compliance issues with.

 

[FeelsSoGoodToBeBad]

I think overall its a division based on Age. Younger people have been more reluctant to wear masks regardless of who they support. Yes you have a subdivision based on politics, but overall its the 'eh I'm young' ettitude. The point of criticizing trump events was that they were OFFICIAL events held by the leader of the free world. Why are there no guidelines in place at an OFFICIAL event???

I agree that compliance should have been higher amongst this group of people, but most of the people out celebrating were young, which as an area we see compliance issues with.

All very valid points.

 

[_caleb]

I think overall its a division based on Age. Younger people have been more reluctant to wear masks regardless of who they support. Yes you have a subdivision based on politics, but overall its the 'eh I'm young' ettitude. The point of criticizing trump events was that they were OFFICIAL events held by the leader of the free world. Why are there no guidelines in place at an OFFICIAL event???

I agree that compliance should have been higher amongst this group of people, but most of the people out celebrating were young, which as an area we see compliance issues with.

This is a pretty clear distinction in my mind: spontaneous gatherings (whether or not you agree with the motivations) vs. official, organized events lead by the people who’s job it is to keep the public safe.

 

[GoofGoof]

Like I said, I think we agree that it’s not wise for Disney to expand capacity.

But I’m done with “it’s up to individuals and States.“ That approach and mentality is putting us all at risk. And I’m not willing to let Disney off the hook simply because they put stickers on the ground and plastic dividers on rides. By opening, they are enabling the sort of “individual choice” that is killing people. They’re showing that they will gladly take irresponsible guests’ money even if it puts at-risk people (CMs and even people who don’t go to the parks) at even greater risk.

Indoor dining might be the highest-risk activity at Disney parks, but we don’t know what the risks are of all the activities in the parks. The recommendations for measures to keep us safe as we do essential things (like grocery shopping or essential work) were not designed for leisure activities like riding rides and eating at restaurants and watching cavalcades.

That’s a valid opinion. In a vacuum and ideally for public health, it would be better if everyone basically stays home except when it’s essential not to. That’s obviously bad news for anyone working in any industry that relies on physical customers (small retail stores, restaurants, bars, theme parks, etc). As time goes on though I think we need to continually assess what can be done safely and what can’t. Where we disagree is how problematic theme parks are. I agree that we have no definitive proof that the theme parks are fully safe, but there’s some decent evidence that it’s less problematic than some other activities going on.

Here’s why I think this. IMHO everyone should follow these basic protocols laid out:

• wash your hands a lot
• practice social distancing
• wear a mask when in public
• avoid large group gatherings (especially indoors)
• get takeout instead of indoor dining
• avoid bars and other indoor places where people interact without masks
• avoid having gatherings at your home

If everyone consistently did all of this there would be less issues with kids going to school or hospitals reaching capacity or people going to theme parks. The level of community spread would be much more under control. If the community spread is lower that makes testing and tracing more effective. It’s a combination of a lot of things not just one magic bullet.

The point of all of this is WDW is setup now to make it possible to comply with almost all of these recommendations with maybe the exception of indoor dining. That’s why I’m saying it’s not as bad as a lot of other things going on. On the economic side, if they can operate safely there are a whole lot of people relying on WDW for their livelihood.

 

[GoofGoof]

This is a pretty clear distinction in my mind: spontaneous gatherings (whether or not you agree with the motivations) vs. official, organized events lead by the people who’s job it is to keep the public safe.

I don’t think that obvious distinction matters to some people. They are salty their guy lost. They don’t really care about people not wearing masks, just sour grapes

 

[_caleb]

As time goes on though I think we need to continually assess what can be done safely and what can’t.

I agree with everything in your post! And I’m especially heartbroken for the employees whose jobs depend on in-person customers.

How do we know that Disney has reopened safely?

And what has changed about America’s COVID situation that might make some believe that it’s now safe to spend the day at a theme park?

 

[GoofGoof]

I agree with everything in your post! And I’m especially heartbroken for the employees whose jobs depend on in-person customers.

How do we know that Disney has reopened safely?

And what has changed about America’s COVID situation that might make some believe that it’s now safe to spend the day at a theme park?

I think it depends on your definition of safely. The chance of you getting infected at WDW as either a guest or a CM is greater than zero, so if safely means no risk at all then it’s not safe. It’s not perfectly safe, but nothing outside of staying home all the time really is. The reason I say WDW has done it safely IMHO is that they setup their safety protocols to mitigate a lot of the known higher risk interactions. I do still think the dining is an issue, especially for guests from out of state that have no choice but to eat all of their meals out. There are outdoor dining options which is good, but there’s no way to avoid using indoor venues and we’ve seen from numerous sources including CDC studies that indoor dining is problematic. Indoor ride queues could be problematic too, but they have implemented and generally enforced both distancing in the lines and masks. Not perfect obviously, but they have reduced the risk as much as is practical.

 

[_caleb]

The protocols that we’re currently using were designed by public health experts to keep us safe while we do only that which is necessary. Each element was selected assuming that people stay home as much as possible.

• Cloth masks, for example, aren’t the safest, but they’re safer than nothing, and much more widely available.
• 6’ distancing isn’t the safest distance, but much safer than getting much closer together.
• Gatherings of 25 (or 50 or 150) aren’t the safest group size, but safer than even larger groups.
• Washing hands and surfaces doesn’t eliminate the threat of infection, but helps reduce it.

These things are all woven together to create our response to the virus. But these things all assume that we’re pretty much staying at home as much as humanly possible. They are not sufficient to keep us safe during leisure activities such as rallies, protests, public celebrations, and trips to Disney World.

Not a source for my opinion here, but supporting my assertion, this NYT article asking whether 6’ is adequate social distancing for runners. The answer is no.

 

[Jwink]

Do we think that Disney will have to shut down again? If so, do we think Disney will survive? My mom seems to think that instead of shutting everything down again, that Biden will do what was mentioned above with masks etc, and try to curb things in that regard. What are y’all’s opinions?

 

[GoofGoof]

• The protocols that we’re currently using were designed by public health experts to keep us safe while we do only that which is necessary. Each element was selected assuming that people stay home as much as possible.
  
  Cloth masks, for example, aren’t the safest, but they’re safer than nothing, and much more widely available.
• 6’ distancing isn’t the safest distance, but much safer than getting much closer together.
• Gatherings of 25 (or 50 or 150) aren’t the safest group size, but safer than even larger groups.
• Washing hands and surfaces doesn’t eliminate the threat of infection, but helps reduce it.

These things are all woven together to create our response to the virus. But these things all assume that we’re pretty much staying at home as much as humanly possible. They are not sufficient to keep us safe during leisure activities such as rallies, protests, public celebrations, and trips to Disney World.

Not a source for my opinion here, but supporting my assertion, this NYT article asking whether 6’ is adequate social distancing for runners. The answer is no.

I think there’s a middle ground between everyone stay home all the time and everything open with no restrictions. It’s a matter of trying to figure out what’s problematic and what’s less of an issue and then using that to guide our actions.

 

[_caleb]

I think it depends on your definition of safely. The chance of you getting infected at WDW as either a guest or a CM is greater than zero, so if safely means no risk at all then it’s not safe. It’s not perfectly safe, but nothing outside of staying home all the time really is. The reason I say WDW has done it safely IMHO is that they setup their safety protocols to mitigate a lot of the known higher risk interactions. I do still think the dining is an issue, especially for guests from out of state that have no choice but to eat all of their meals out. There are outdoor dining options which is good, but there’s no way to avoid using indoor venues and we’ve seen from numerous sources including CDC studies that indoor dining is problematic. Indoor ride queues could be problematic too, but they have implemented and generally enforced both distancing in the lines and masks. Not perfect obviously, but they have reduced the risk as much as is practical.

Thanks for the discussion. It’s much easier and more fun in the absence of those who would always react in extremes. I appreciate it.

I’m not saying “safe = zero risk.” And yes, going to WDW involves risk greater than zero. But how much greater than zero? We have no idea. And how much do the COVID measures bring the risk down from that unknown level? We have no idea about that, either. But it sure seems to make guests feel safe!

Like I said, I used to be “live and let live” about this whole thing. But looking at the numbers and seeing so many people suffering needlessly has put me over the edge. WDW is obviously not essential, and guests should not be going for all our sakes.

 

[_caleb]

I think there’s a middle ground between everyone stay home all the time and everything open with no restrictions. It’s a matter of trying to figure out what’s problematic and what’s less of an issue and then using that to guide our actions.

Right! We’re on a continuum!
The challenge is finding where we should be on the continuum between “full lockdown” and “back to normal.” And the numbers say that we’re too far toward the “back to normal” extreme for our own good.