montyz81
Well-Known Member
Look NorthEast. I can see a big metal box from the promenade. For that matter, you can see one if you look northwest too.
(I kid. I know you meant actually on the promenade)
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EPCOT Journey of Water featuring Moana coming to Epcot
- Thread starter Rteetz
- Start date
(I kid. I know you meant actually on the promenade)
Thank-you. I will. Because that's pretty much the definition of bad design, in that there is nothing in the design suggesting the theming you want it to convey.
And if other buildings are like that, so be it. Their faults don't excuse the FoN's fault.
Though, SSE is a sphere, representing Earth. The Sea has wavy architecture. The other buildings' shapes were originally meant to convey their theme, as Martin will tell you.
And "The Fountain of Nations" has none of that that I can discern.
Well, it’s.. a fountain. Called the Communicore and Innoventions fountain internally as well as FoN too.
It wasn’t even the original one I’ll give it that.
DreamfinderGuy
Well-Known Member
I’d even go as far as to say that from a symbolic standpoint the removal of the Fountain of Nations represents something far stronger than any press release hyping up a new splash pad could ever say. I know it’s sacrilege in these parts to compare anything to the removal of Horizons, especially being that it was on a much grander scale than a literal fountain, but both of their removals represent missteps and a complete disregard to what the park stood for. However I guess the entire intent is to change what the park stands for, so that pretty much justifies it’s removal.
DreamfinderGuy
Well-Known Member
Any chance you'll ever get your markers out for another intentionally vague sketch of this project? I'm very curious to see how they would've worked that.
I’m sure there’s a chance
RobWDW1971
Well-Known Member
I think the fact the Fountain of Nations is being replaced for a sky bar pretty much says it all about how they feel about the original concept of Epcot.
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yensidtlaw1969
Well-Known Member
“As Martin will tell me”? Bruh, I said it in my post! Don‘t quote my point back to me and pretend to be teaching me something.
Future World DIDN’T make less sense if you didn’t know about the Fountain of Nations dedication ceremony. The Fountain wasn’t holding up a conceptual cornerstone of the land, but it did reinforce the concept if you knew about the fountain. That is not bad design, that’s called placemaking - it’s not like you missed the point of the whole place if you missed the point of the fountain, but the point of the fountain DID speak to the point of the place anyway.
Categorically, that’s pretty squarely GOOD design, especially in a theme park environment where people are free to roam and direct their attention as they please. Everything works in support of the concept without over-reliance on any one element that guests could be free to miss.
Not did EPCOT Center, and especially Future World, aspired to not only a different, less literal, higher conceptual level of thematic design than the standard you‘re holding it to, but it held up to it anyway. The remaining elements in Future World still do. Sorry if the subtlety of actually building a reality rather than creating an illusory one doesn’t fully do it for you.
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The FoN dedication ceremony was attended by Lillian Disney, and IIRC she helped dedicate it somehow. It was a direct tie back to Walt, if you will, possibly the last one (I don't count his windows at MK). Tearing it out basically took out whatever was left of EPCOT Center's soul.
I remember being at MK in mid-to-late December 1997 with my then-future wife, and we wondered why the flags were at half-mast. They were lowered because Lilly had died the day before we went down.
I remember being at MK in mid-to-late December 1997 with my then-future wife, and we wondered why the flags were at half-mast. They were lowered because Lilly had died the day before we went down.
RobWDW1971
Well-Known Member
Well good news is the sky bar will be dedicated by local microbrewers and representatives of the world's greatest liquor companies. Truly magical.
Little Green Men
Well-Known Member
The sky bar is where club cool was, weren't they adding two smaller fountains to the FON area?
Tied back to Walt because his wife showed up to a one-day ceremony?
Sorry, but I truly find that laughable.
Epcot, as built, was not what Walt wanted. They very specifically ditched what Walt wanted. They had ideas: "Hey, about about a permanent World's Fair?" "Hey how about a cultural center highlighting nations of the world?" "Hey about about mashing them into one park!"
That fountain had nothing to do with Walt. I was just a fountain. A one day ceremony doesn't make it special.
They could have called it "Fountain of Bears" and we'd all be like, "I don't see the bears." They could have called it "Fountain of Toys" and we'd all be like, "I don't see the toys."
I don't see the nations despite being called "Fountain of Nations."
A name is not a theme.
It was just a nice fountain. It's not elevated to the Platonic plane of theme park perfection because Walt's wife attended a ceremony that took place there.
Where are are thematic purists critical of everything that contemporary Disney does because they fail on "theme"?
That fountain has always failed on theme.
doctornick
Well-Known Member
The front half of the pad is still undeveloped, so who knows! (not expecting anything to go there anytime soon, but it is space that could feature something)
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doctornick
Well-Known Member
There's nothing wrong with the tents per se - it's the content of them that is lacking. I actually think the circus area is pretty nice, but it should have another attraction or two. It would be quite different if the two big tents houses a ride like Mickey's Madhouse or even a Pinocchio clone rather than a store and M&G.
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yensidtlaw1969
Well-Known Member
That's what you're missing - the theme wasn't "Nations". The theme was a Fountain. It was a fountain dedicated in the name of the unity of nations. The way you might dedicate a local park to a civil servant. You don't expect the park to look like them.
It worked because it was the kind of thing the designers hoped we would have in the future world. Features that commemorate and celebrate global unity as an ideal and a value. They weren't trying to depict an illusory environment that merely "looked" like it was in the future. Save that for Tomorrowland.
Future World wasn't a place where you stepped through a portal into another world. Future World was rooted IN the world. The point wasn't to make you feel like you traveled into an imaginary future, the point was to bring the future forward. Instead of waiting for the world to get its act together and move towards creating places like this, they did it themselves. Traveled down the lines of the eventualities and make them real so we could consider what could come next.
The standard of "theming" to which your trying to hold it is not the only standard - it's not even the GOLD standard. It's one that EPCOT proudly defied in the pursuit of something newer and genuinely more ambitious. That it seems to be lost on you isn't a failing of the park to achieve a level of "theming" that Future World actively rejected 40 years ago. Theming isn't theme. EPCOT Center had Theme in spades. And the Fountain of Nations was on theme.
TrainsOfDisney
Well-Known Member
This made me laugh out loud.
It was just a fountain. A fine one.
I remain unconvinced it was anything more than that because of one ceremony and where it sat.
TrainsOfDisney
Well-Known Member
The fountain by the tip board at DHS is just a fountain. And also a fine one.
Fountain of Nations was definitely more iconic than that. Is it the heart and soul of Epcot? No of course not.
UNCgolf
Well-Known Member
I think the synchronized shows made it more than a simple fountain. When it was fully functioning, they were very impressive and a relatively significant part of EPCOT's central area. A lot of people stopped to watch those shows.
That's also maybe the only improvement made to EPCOT in the entire 1990s!
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Josh Hendy
Well-Known Member
It was the first and most impressive thing I saw at Epcot on my very first visit there in the 90s. It's what I told my relatives about when I went home.
If any Disney exec decided to demolish it without building a similarly impressive replacement, then he probably never visited Epcot except with a crowd of clipboard carrying flunkies around him and his cellphone in his ear talking to Burbank. He probably frowned and moved away from the fountain to avoid the noise and spray. One of his flunkies later showed him on a park plan how the fountain area was a "dead zone" with no merch and alcohol sales, and guests tended to stand there watching the fountain instead of hurrying past it to spend more money.
So you could say, FP+ killed the fountain
