A Spirited 15 Rounds ...

G8rchamps

Well-Known Member
So we are still a Disney family, and this week has proved it. Our UNI passes expire on Sunday and the kids- DS12 and DD10- don't care if we go at all this weekend. We are staying at a Hilton Vacation Club with the pool and slide so the kids are set. We (my wife and I- or the true children in the family) have decided to get Disney AP's again this weekend. The whole family has been planning rides, meals, and other must do's since the decision last week to go for it. We can't wait to get back.

I do agree with the cost/value/bubble arguments of staying on-site and we see less value there than before. Our other factor is that for a trip of any length we just need more space a d a suite or joining rooms gets expensive fast.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Who called you that? It's obviously out of line.

Honestly thoush, I see as many (or more) people attacked on these boards for criticizing Disney as for praising it.
I think it's actually pretty even ground here with all sides represented. There are extremes on either side but most of us fall somewhere in the middle. Outside of a few unfortunate incidents, the "attacks" on both sides tend to be pretty mild and generally civil. More like old friends disagreeing. The few times it has gotten out of hand or trolls get invloved the moderators do a good job cleaning things up fast.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
I'm curious, Kman - and this may sound aggressive, but I really don't intend it to be, you're a great poster - what would be YOUR tipping point? What would make you drastically curtail your time at WDW?
Interesting question. I'm not Kman but I'll give you my 2 cents on it.

I'm not sure exactly what it would take for me to hit my tipping point. Right now I'm obviously not there since I have another trip planned in November;) I think for me it would take some serious problems to not go back. My kids are only 7 and 10 right now and the young childhood years go by so fast. Each trip we take is a different experience as they get older and I am enjoying experiencing different aspects of the parks for the first time again through their eyes. I enjoyed time at WDW before I had kids but I wonder if I would still be going back as frequently or even at all if I didn't have kids.
 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
Maybe in terms of pure dollars, but they are still spending way too much for what they get, only encouraging a return to underinvestment.
I'll let the rest of you debate that one.

Me? I like what they did with Pandora, just wish there was more of it. Gotta say though, Avatar does not lend itself to the merchandise and food blitz the way Harry Potter did. What makes the two Harry Potter lands so much more enjoyable are the merchandise and food options. (Although the food at Pandora's restaurant is pretty good, the restaurant itself isn't as appealing.)

Disney won't have the same problem with Star Wars!
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I'll let the rest of you debate that one.

Me? I like what they did with Pandora, just wish there was more of it. Gotta say though, Avatar does not lend itself to the merchandise and food blitz the way Harry Potter did. What makes the two Harry Potter lands so much more enjoyable are the merchandise and food options. (Although the food at Pandora's restaurant is pretty good, the restaurant itself isn't as appealing.)

Disney won't have the same problem with Star Wars!
To bring something I’ve been harping on elsewhere here, I think Slinky Dog Dash versus Time Traveler is a better comparison. Both are Mack Rides coasters with two launches opening in Spring/Summer 2018. Disney is spending over twice as much for their coaster.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
I understand the merch draw for Potter but the food options never did anything for me. What am I missing? It's probably better than the majority of theme park food but still ... I'm sure they make a killing on butterbeer alone.
I think it's mostly the butter beer that does it. Food itself and eating establishments had a big part in the Harry Potter series. I think people like the idea of actually eating the foods from the movies in the establishments. I don't really remember anyone eating in Avatar. Star Wars should be interesting. They don't have a food draw as strong as butterbeer (not even blue milk), but a well done Cantina could rival or exceed any of the Harry Potter food locations.
 

Sonconato

Well-Known Member
I used to go to Red Sox games when bleacher seats were much less than $5. Interesting thing though, Fenway Park was a dump. The seats were old and dilapidated; you got splinters from them all the time. The walkways were dirty with garbage on the ground. Good luck finding a clean toilet. You ate hot dogs, beer, soda, peanuts, and ice cream bars. That was pretty much it. Players rarely made more than $100k. Except for the superstars, many had to supplement their income with off-season work.

MLB (and all sports) have upped their games by leaps and bounds since then. Even today's minor league parks present a better product than MLB did in the 1970s and before.

What disappoints many of us today is that WDW has gone in the opposite direction, higher prices even as commitment to the customer experience has waned.

I don't mind paying more; I mind paying more for a declining product.

With recent announcements, Disney leadership has fixed the theme park investment problem. Let's see if they can do something to address quality.

Frankly, that's going to be more difficult to solve. For investment, leadership simply had to do something different with net income other than pouring it all into dividends and stock buybacks.

To fix quality, Disney leadership has to change attitude. They have to stop with the "good enough" attitude and recognize why they had to bring in the Four Seasons to open a quality hotel experience.

This doesn't mean WDW is a dump, only that it could do better, like it did in the past. WDW is capable of doing it again, but it takes leadership more focused on quality and less focused on operating margin.
Ah...yes, the 70's and 80's at Fenway. I remember having a view of many a column. It also doesn't hurt that they won the World Series 2004, 2007 and 2013 compared to the disappointments of 1967, 1975 and 1986 (yes, I am old). I wholeheartdly agree the WDW attitude has to change.
 
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ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
I understand the merch draw for Potter but the food options never did anything for me. What am I missing? It's probably better than the majority of theme park food but still ... I'm sure they make a killing on butterbeer alone.
Potter's ice cream shop, candy store, and butterbeer! :)

In addition, Potter's two restaurants are better themed. They are part of the entertainment and add to the overall experience. Pandora's restaurant is fairly boring, although I feel the food at Pandora's restaurant is better.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
I understand the merch draw for Potter but the food options never did anything for me. What am I missing? It's probably better than the majority of theme park food but still ... I'm sure they make a killing on butterbeer alone.

The food is traditional british, so things like a ploughman's lunch, toad in the hole, bangers and mash.

Food which the average american has never heard of yet its still in the 'safe zone' for most people because it looks familiar sort of.

Butterbeer - fine if you like sweet things not my cup of tea so to speak

But the food is intended to reinforce that you are in the 'Wizarding World' in Britain which never left the Edwardian era.
 

Nubs70

Well-Known Member
Interesting question. I'm not Kman but I'll give you my 2 cents on it.

I'm not sure exactly what it would take for me to hit my tipping point. Right now I'm obviously not there since I have another trip planned in November;) I think for me it would take some serious problems to not go back. My kids are only 7 and 10 right now and the young childhood years go by so fast. Each trip we take is a different experience as they get older and I am enjoying experiencing different aspects of the parks for the first time again through their eyes. I enjoyed time at WDW before I had kids but I wonder if I would still be going back as frequently or even at all if I didn't have kids.
I think your tipping point will begin to hit in 2-3 years. The point at which there are no new experiences and you begin to pay all adult prices. Then you will begin to see the quality for dollars spent. Once the kids get teen/preteen and birch about everything, you will ask "why am I spending so much?"
 

Kman101

Well-Known Member
Potter's ice cream shop, candy store, and butterbeer! :)

In addition, Potter's two restaurants are better themed. They are part of the entertainment and add to the overall experience. Pandora's restaurant is fairly boring, although I feel the food at Pandora's restaurant is better.

I agree about the restaurant in Pandora. Good food and some parts were interesting.

Ice cream, candy and butterbeer I understand. I also get the appeal of eating inside the restaurants but the menu didn't seem to be all that interesting to me so that's why I was wondering what I was missing in terms of food, I get the overall appeal though.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
This is an oversimplification of Disney theme park history. Frank Wells was not the saint people make him out to be, although he did balance some of Eisner's excesses.

Wells died young and fanbois and bloggers have gone off on the Walt was balanced by Roy and Michael was balanced by Frank comparison. It is true to some extent. Some extent.

Michael Eisner and Frank Wells took over Disney in 1984. WDW immediately saw four years of double-digit price increases, the biggest percent increases in the history of WDW. The value of a WDW vacation dropped considerably even if quality did not.

I'm a big fan of MDE -- as I have made no secret of (while I also believe he should have left the company by 1998-99). I still largely agree with the above, but can also argue that since WDW was actually so underpriced for so many years -- and, the important thing, Michael and Frank, invested so much in the swamps that the value increased because there was a constant flow of new and quality reasons to visit. And return ... and return ...

Eisner had a low opinion of Disney's theme park management. Eisner infamously called Parks & Resorts management "monkeys" around this time, as in "even a monkey could do their job".

Pushed by major Disney shareholder Sid Bass, Eisner began to invest heavily in WDW in the late 1980s, largely creating the resort we know today.

By 1990, Eisner and Wells both started pushing out Parks & Resorts management, who I call the Old Guard. These were folks who had cut their teeth under Walt and Roy Disney, who truly believed in providing their Guests with the "value" mentioned in earlier annual reports.

By the time of Wells' premature death in 1994, the Old Guard (at least at the top levels) had been replaced by those "sharp-pencil guys" Walt warned about decades before. Or at least replaced by managers who were willing to sell their souls in order to keep their jobs.

This point is overstated. Many of the people pushed out, and there were plenty, were nearing their expiration dates. Some were considerably older than George K, who is considered ancient by today's Disney because he is on the downside of 60. And many of the guys who came in, like Lee Cockerell (who was beloved by even frontliners, despite doing more damage to WDW than just about anyone not based on the west coast), had great resumes and reps and had worked at large American corporations like Hilton, Marriott, IBM etc.

Eisner and Wells were both a blessing and a curse to WDW. They grew the resort tremendously but also were both to blame for starting the trend of ever increasing prices coupled with lower quality, a trend that continues today.

This is where we diverge. Quality absolutely was near its zenith when Wells died. Prices, also while higher, weren't obscene (they are today!) I would be hard-pressed to see any major declines in quality when Wells died. And even after he passed, WDW added DAK, added BB, added the BW, added Coronado Springs, added wonderful upscale dining, added major attractions, entertainment was updated regularly (look at the new annual parades at Disney-MGM for an example) etc.

Quality was still incredibly high. My first recollection of issues came later ... a room that was beat up and in need of work at the BC late in 96, the embarrassingly bad Test Track (although we all know it was beloved from the start), which signaled the start of dumbing down/killing EPCOT, a 25th Anniversary that was largely style over substance ... much of it I tended to overlook because DAK was amazing when it opened and the Millennium Celebration breathed life into a troubled park.

By the early 21st century (2000-2003) it was very obvious that WDW was troubled and being run in a vastly different fashion than it had been.

But, again, Bob Iger came in and simply took that business model and put the pedal to the floor. The vast majority of the damage came in MDE's final 4-5 years and then since Iger took over.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Another quick note, but been told that our pal @lentesta is at WDW and staying at a value resort for under $80 a night, including tax.

Now, I've always viewed Len as the type of guy who would be at the Grand Flo myself ... but if he is showing fiscal restraint who am I to judge? But the person who brought this to my attention was acting like this is some mindblowing development and sign that WDW's business is in the tank. The phrase "unheard of" was used.

That just isn't true. WDW has dropped rates for CMs, APers and FL residents as low as $32 (CMs) over the last decade. And WDW regularly had these rooms for as low as $49 for APers maybe a decade ago and slightly higher since.

The point, beyond Lenny being cheap (he can afford the Four Seasons with his little empire), which is perfectly acceptable, is that rates are adjusted based on load levels. It is pretty safe to say that WDW didn't get the Pandora Bounce it was expecting. And August (well, from mid-August anyway) and September are two of the slowest months of the year. I would guess these rates will largely disappear in a month's time.
 

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