Frozen ride replacing Maelstrom?

[MerlinTheGoat]

Well, that's just it. I wouldn't take my 2 and 7 year olds to France, and think they would enjoy it as much as me.

PLEASE don't get me wrong...on our honeymoon we adored the World showcase. I'm just saying i personally don't feel that Belle reading a book in front of France cripples the experience for me...and if it give my daughters a reason to be excited to be there, so much the better.

I also agree that previous versions of Epcot was much better suited to a wide age range. But for world showcase it has always been a bit of an issue. Is using characters kids know and love to get them interested in their country of origin really so objectionable?

World Showcase has always lacked as many rides as it should have received. I would agree with the notion that it needs more quality rides, but I disagree that shoehorning in characters (either with rides or meet and greets) is an adequate solution for that issue. They just should have went ahead and built the rest of the planned attractions that never got finished, the proper way of addressing that problem.

Rhine River Cruise for instance was going to go in Germany, the show building apparently still exists in some form (unless i'm mistaken) and Biergarten was built in what was supposed to have been the loading area for the boats. There were plenty of other plans for rides that were never built at World Showcase, some of the more famous ones including plans for both a Matterhorn clone and a Mt Fuji coaster among i'm sure many others. There were also never built pavilions such as Spain, Venezuela, Israel etc, some of which would also have had some new rides. All great ideas that were never built but would have addressed World Showcase's ride problem without compromising the park's identity.

 

[Surge38]

"I don't have an issue with integrating a character with a pavilion in a limited manner. I do have an issue with removing the cultural experiences because "your kid seems restless".

It is here we agree. I'm not for removing ANY cultural experience. I simply do not feel that "integrating a character with a pavilion in a limited manner" is necessarily harming a cultural experience. As mentioned above (i think I was editing my post when someone quoted it) I HATE the Grand Fiesta Tour, and adding Donald and friends ruined it...but Belle in France or Snow White in Germany doesn't feel as disruptive to the cultural experience to me as it seems to for some other people.

 

[Surge38]

World Showcase has always lacked as many rides as it should have received. I would agree with the notion that it needs more quality rides, but I disagree that shoehorning in characters (either with rides or meet and greets) is an adequate solution for that issue. They just should have went ahead and built the rest of the planned attractions that never got finished, the proper way of addressing that problem.

Rhine River Cruise for instance was going to go in Germany, the show building apparently still exists in some form (unless i'm mistaken) and Biergarten was built in what was supposed to have been the loading area for the boats. There were plenty of other plans for rides that were never built at World Showcase, some of the more famous ones including plans for both a Matterhorn clone and a Mt Fuji coaster among i'm sure many others. There were also never built pavilions such as Spain, Venezuela, Israel etc, some of which would also have had some new rides. All great ideas that were never built but would have addressed World Showcase's ride problem without compromising the park's identity.

Well, I'm forced to agree here. Going from west to east around the Lagoon, it does feel as if the rides suddenly STOP. All the pavillians have to offer past norway are shops, food, and the occasional old movie. Perhaps if the entire showcase was less unbalanced it feel like as much of a problem.

 

[Matt_Black]

Well, I'm forced to agree here. Going from west to east around the Lagoon, it does feel as if the rides suddenly STOP. All the pavillians have to offer past norway are shops, food, and the occasional old movie. Perhaps if the entire showcase was less unbalanced it feel like as much of a problem.

Japan was supposed to have a Mt. Fuji ride, but unfortunately, Kodak was a huge sponsor at the time, and FujiFilm is one of their biggest competitors. Even though that's the mountain's proper name, they didn't want anybody associating Disney World with FujiFilm, not matter how tenuous the connection.

 

[doctornick]

Ok, never let it be said that I'm adverse to new ideas or solutions different from my own... How would you improve the "all ages appeal" of World showcase, given the opportunity?

The simple answer is to add more rides. Said rides don't have to be toon themed (i.e. Frozen in Norway, Ratatouille in France, etc.) but can be enjoyable with more cultural theming. The original boat ride in Mexico (pre Donald) was perfectly fine for children to enjoy.

Also, I'd like to see them move IASW to the WS.

 

[Surge38]

Also, I'd like to see them move IASW to the WS.

oooooo, Interesting Idea. Where would you put it though, since it represents every country?

 

[Lord_Vader]

Characters like you're talking about aren't really appropriate for EPCOT at all. They've tried to shoehorn them in, but it's just the equivalent of putting a piece of chewing gum on a leaky dam (instead of addressing and correcting the REAL problem in a way that is appropriate). The park wasn't originally designed for Disney characters and its best years are the olde times where it didn't have or need them (and where adding them in would actually hurt more than help it).

There are ways to make an entertaining EPCOT that appeals to even kids without resorting to shoehorned characters, they are simply ignoring those ways and going to cheap route. Future World before the massive screw up in the 90's had appeal for ALL ages and genders. And in the case of the original Imagination, they created extremely successful kid friendly NEW characters completely original to the park without even using previously established characters.

EPCOT is very much in need of massive reworking at this point. Both halves need massive restructuring and expansion, and there no longer exists the quadruple mega force of four spectacular and fantastic E tickets on the Future World side to help offset the lack of rides in World Showcase (only Spaceship Earth remains in a somewhat crippled state from the original roster). Few people are going to deny that the park needs major expansion and reworking. But adding Disney characters to everything is NOT the right solution and will just further ruin EPCOT's already tarnished identity. With regards to at least Future World, there didn't used to be a problem with selling the park to kids because the rides were all absolutely fantastic on their own (to pretty much everyone of all ages). They didn't need Disney characters to sell nostalgia, they were just great original stand alone experiences. Even the ones that weren't geared specifically towards kids were still highly enjoyed by young audiences. But now they just shoehorn in meet in greets from Disney movies and harm the identity of the place, instead of spending any decent money and ingenuity expanding the park logically with new original rides. And that's the problem- The character push is a poor substitute for actually spending money on building legitimately great new rides (not to mention tearing down classics that didn't need to be destroyed and replacing them with inferior ones).

Many younger parents, there are several at my company and at the ballfields I coach at, are going to WDW for the character interactions alone with the rides coming in second. In their opinions, they can get theme park rides at any theme park. I personally believe there should be a balance of the two, Disney is putting great emphesis on meet & greets lately, this is no surprise to anyone but they are doing it based on demand and in my opinion not to simply cut costs. M&Gs do not have the throughput to support thousands of guests per hour as many attractions do and do cost a lot to run on a per-guest basis. WDW to many is a place where fantasy becomes reality, it is where the characters come to life and is much more than a collection of rides.

Now, I personally would prefer more E-Ticket attractions, especially in EPCOT & DHS now that AK is getting some late attention. My family is more about attractions and time away from the daily grind than characters as my "children" are now 16 and 21. While I agree with you on some points, they do need the characters in some areas because my children were young once, they absolutely hated the World Showcase for the most part and would only stay behaved in each country for a very short period of time, we only started being able to really explore the countries more in depth over the past few years. Even the passports, KP/P&F, penny presses, and all the other WS activities were boring to my children, we simply could not take the time we wanted to and have the kids stay interested and behaved while doing so.

EPCOT has an identify crisis because they have shuttered attractions or reworked them in a manner that is badly flawed. WS needs more short but fast-paced educational rides while FW needs the shuttered pavilions reopened with new high energy rides that are worthwile and independant of IP. The characters can easily provide a quick photo-op in each country for all I care, if someone is not interested they can simply pass by but they do mean a lot to quite a few families. The longest lines in WDW at Christmas were for Elsa and Anna in Norway, the most difficult restaurants to get into (other than BoG) are mostly character dining even with average quality food offerings because guests are wiling to spend premium amounts of money on character interactions.

 

[disneyfan295]

Disney just spent about 2 billion dollars on FastPass+ so I'm guessing they won't be putting in a new ride soon. There have also been rumors about new rides at the Studios, so Disney is more likely to do something there than Epcot. By the time they would want to do something with Maelstrom, Frozen mania may have died down. That is also a very small ride and there wouldn't be a lot of room to develop it.

 

[wdisney9000]

I'm sure I may take heat for this, and I know this point has been alluded to already in this thread, but...

As a parent taking my 7 and 2 year old daughters to Disney, I have to say the world showcase was a tough sell for them.

In fact this past trip (end of Feb) we had to skip the vast majority of the countries, because our little ones we getting antsy. The countries we were able to keep them happy in? Mexico (3 Caballeros) and Norway (Frozen and Maelstrom)

The ONLY thing that might have helped us see more pavilions was the promise that we would look for Snow White and Jasmine. Unfortunately, it started to rain, so we knew they wouldn't be out. So me and DW sadly gave up on World showcase entirely for this trip.

Honestly, as a little kid, I loved Future world, and Mexico and Norway because of the rides. The other countries would hold my attention for a little bit, but it soon became a struggle to balance my parents' desire to shop and experience the pavilions, and us kids' desire for rides and characters to stave off boredom.

Honestly, I respect the desire to keep the themeing pure in EPCOT...but while a 4+ hour shopping tour around the World showcase Lagoon is heaven for me and my wife...it's not so much for the little ones. Inclusion of established Disney Characters where APPROPRIATE helps us still do that...and might just help draw the kids into the fun as well.

I don't have kids but have taken my nephews (both under 10 yrs old) around WS dozens of time and they love it. We get the Agent P on a stick thing and visit all the different countries to get the stamp and I always make them ask how to say hello and goodbye in the native language. They love it, I shop and drink, and we all LEARN something in the process.

I believe it's all in the approach. I'll ask them questions such as, "how do you say hello in German"? When they answer, "I don't know" I tell them, hey we are in Germany let's find out! and then we can get the stamp for your stick and some German chocolate from the shop! All of the sudden, THEY want to teach me about Germany and chocolate and whatever else they learn. Kids yearn for that kind of structure, they just don't know it. Replace Disney characters with intrigue and allow them the excitement of teaching YOU something.

 

[MerlinTheGoat]

Meet and greets for Disney characters are a cheap and dirty replacement for actual rides, but they are not a suitable substitute for them. They're a fine second or third tier attraction where appropriate (though done better when it was more spontaneous pre-2000's), but EPCOT is an inappropriate place for them. Disney likes them because they don't require the massive amount of money to build and maintain like a ride. And no you can't go to any theme park and get Disney quality rides (well now you can get that and more at Universal now but that's only because Disney has dropped the ball on quality rides), an absurd claim to make unless you legitimately can't tell the difference between Splash Mountain or Spaceship Earth and a generic log flume at Six Flags...

I'd question the sanity of either kids or adults who would prefer hour long waits to meet some college students cosplaying as Disney princes and princesses (and even as a little kid it was always obvious they were people in costumes) instead of riding a fantastic and quality ride like Splash Mountain or the original Imagination. Anyone can get a Disney costume and pretend to be that character, but quality rides are rare and limited to just a few theme parks worldwide.

 

[asianway]

Meet and greets for Disney characters are a cheap and dirty replacement for actual rides, but they are not a suitable substitute for them. They're a fine second or third tier attraction where appropriate (though done better when it was more spontaneous pre-2000's), but EPCOT is an inappropriate place for them. Disney likes them because they don't require the massive amount of money to build and maintain like a ride. And no you can't go to any theme park and get Disney quality rides (well now you can get that and more at Universal now but that's only because Disney has dropped the ball on quality rides), an absurd claim to make unless you legitimately can't tell the difference between Splash Mountain or Spaceship Earth and a generic log flume at Six Flags...

I'd question the sanity of either kids or adults who would prefer hour long waits to meet some college students cosplaying as Disney princes and princesses (and even as a little kid it was always obvious they were people in costumes) instead of riding a fantastic and quality ride like Splash Mountain or the original Imagination. Anyone can get a Disney costume and pretend to be that character, but quality rides are rare and limited to just a few theme parks worldwide.

By making meet & greets more accessible they have opened them up to a group of people who would have otherwise been fine without it. Get a picture with Mickey & Minnie? That may have been good enough 10 years ago just to get A picture with A character. Now that you know where they are going to be it becomes a hunt to "collect 'em all". Dedicated indoor greets add labor and facility upkeep costs. It's now reached absurd levels where the natural surroundings of the park are no longer suitable for photos, you may as well be in a mall Santa line. @drew81 reported they are working on a jungle themed background for the Baloo greet.
Think about that.


There should be characters but the budgets and resources allocated to them are insane.

 

[michmousefan]

EPCOT has an identify crisis because they have shuttered attractions or reworked them in a manner that is badly flawed. WS needs more short but fast-paced educational rides while FW needs the shuttered pavilions reopened with new high energy rides that are worthwile and independant of IP. The characters can easily provide a quick photo-op in each country for all I care, if someone is not interested they can simply pass by but they do mean a lot to quite a few families. The longest lines in WDW at Christmas were for Elsa and Anna in Norway, the most difficult restaurants to get into (other than BoG) are mostly character dining even with average quality food offerings because guests are wiling to spend premium amounts of money on character interactions.

The reimagined "Cosmos" series is everything that Future World should be. Well-told stories, impressive visual effects, rooted in educating people without talking down to them, guided by a friendly and knowledgeable host in Neil DeGrasse Tyson, and all powered (like Sagan's version was) by a "ship of the imagination."

 

[doctornick]

oooooo, Interesting Idea. Where would you put it though, since it represents every country?

Give it its own space -- I've thought the land between the UK and the International Gateway would be idea as a "welcome" to the park via that entrance and that puts it on the opposite side from the Mexico/Norway boat rides. I've pictured building IASW with a facade like at DL and then it can feature a projection show at night like they have there. No reason it would have to be part of an existing country, there is plenty of additional space in the WS.

My idea has always been to move IASW to Epcot and use the vacated show space in MK to make a Tangled themed boat ride (which would be right next to the Tangled bathrooms, which would strengthen that theme).

 

[Lord_Vader]

The reimagined "Cosmos" series is everything that Future World should be. Well-told stories, impressive visual effects, rooted in educating people without talking down to them, guided by a friendly and knowledgeable host in Neil DeGrasse Tyson, and all powered (like Sagan's version was) by a "ship of the imagination."

I completely agree, and the re-imagineering should begin with SE to set the mood.

• Fix the ending of SE, maybe do something simliar to the cosmic year as we move away from earth while descending.
• Replace Ellen with a more engaging attraction about the diversity of energy sources, not just oil.
• Bring back the WoL pavilion and teach about the extreme variety of animals around the world.
• MS! is fine.
• TT is fine.
• Bring Figment back in its original form!!!
• Rework Nemo to be a tour of the Great Barrier Reef and all its wonder.

 

[aladdin2007]

Things like that are not up to TDO--it's up to WDI.

not really, its up to TDO to purchase from WDI, so it comes down to what they are willing to pay for usually, which as we all know isnt much.

 

[NormC]

Does Norway still actively sponsor or support the pavilion? If they do let them chose how to improve it. If they have left Disney with the bill like some other countries then "Freeze" away. I believe it could be done well if someone actually cared enough to do so. Maelstrom as it currently sits is just a break from the rain or heat outside. Hardly anyone goes into the film and most exit the shop as well.

 

[aladdin2007]

Does Norway still actively sponsor or support the pavilion? If they do let them chose how to improve it. If they have left Disney with the bill like some other countries then "Freeze" away. I believe it could be done well if someone actually cared enough to do so. Maelstrom as it currently sits is just a break from the rain or heat outside. Hardly anyone goes into the film and most exit the shop as well.

No sadly Norway has not been a sponsor or played a roll since around 2002-03. They fought a couple years ago to come back on board again and even offered Disney a new movie as part of the package for free, Disney refused. And Norwegian parliament did not want to pay the astronomical amounts that Disney and WDI were requiring just for reasearch alone.

ps: you can view that movie on youtube, Norway the Power of Nature, it probably would have been a bit shorter version of it had they used it but would have been great.

 

[space42]

Many younger parents, there are several at my company and at the ballfields I coach at, are going to WDW for the character interactions alone with the rides coming in second. In their opinions, they can get theme park rides at any theme park. I personally believe there should be a balance of the two, Disney is putting great emphesis on meet & greets lately, this is no surprise to anyone but they are doing it based on demand and in my opinion not to simply cut costs. M&Gs do not have the throughput to support thousands of guests per hour as many attractions do and do cost a lot to run on a per-guest basis. WDW to many is a place where fantasy becomes reality, it is where the characters come to life and is much more than a collection of rides.

Wow - when I read statements like this it really makes me both sad and nostalgic at the same time. I am just happy that this is not the Walt Disney World I grew up with. The WDW I grew up with built attractions that you couldn't get at any theme park and the character interactions were almost an afterthought (they just roamed around - you certainly wouldn't plan your trip around it) Large scale , long format, one of a kind E-Tickets like Big Thunder Mountain, Horizons, World of Motion, the original Journey into Imagination.. and later on Splash Mountain, Tower of Terror... That is the reason that I joined this message board and still follow Disney ~40 years later. If I were a new WDW guest - I'm not so sure that I'd have the love and passion for the place that I do. They are (not so) slowly turning the place into something I no longer recognize.

Back to the original topic. Frozen deserves it's own, one of a kind, large scale, mega E-Ticket that the entire family can enjoy - and it doesn't belong in Epcot Center.

 

[SJN1279]

Back to the original topic. Frozen deserves it's own, one of a kind, large scale, mega E-Ticket that the entire family can enjoy - and it doesn't belong in Epcot Center.

I agree. I would love to see them turn the outdated mess that is The Great Movie Ride and turn it into an E Ticket massive Frozen attraction. Hollywood Studios needs a family attraction, and Frozen would be a great centerpiece for the park(complete with Castle).

 

[lazyboy97o]

The reimagined "Cosmos" series is everything that Future World should be. Well-told stories, impressive visual effects, rooted in educating people without talking down to them, guided by a friendly and knowledgeable host in Neil DeGrasse Tyson, and all powered (like Sagan's version was) by a "ship of the imagination."

EPCOT Center featured the likes of Ray Bradbury consulting but today an announcement of Neil DeGrasse Tyson working with Walt Disney Imagineering would make for a good April Fool's prank.