Spirited News, Observations & Thoughts IV

[Goofyernmost]

Bull. What happens when a society's way of controlling its populace is through information?There will be a time when you can't live without a phone without a tracker and your car will have one (to help if it is stolen ...or if you tick off someone in power). And you won't be able to bank any longer if you don't do it electronically. Want a job but you don't have a facebook or Twitter presence so you can be judged by your employer? Enjoy not working.

We are at a very key time in urination (should be our nation's but I love autocorrect) history. We've been sheep since the 90s and it is biting us hard. I see that when I am the only person at TSA checkpoints to refuse to enter the strip search machines to get on a flight.

The idea that I just won't go to WDW is very naive. That changes our behavior, not the corporation's. Besides, I'll say it again, but Disney doesn't really want us oldtimers with long memories and standards. Not when we can be replaced by rubes.

WDW(spirit)1974...to my knowledge this conversation is about Disney's alleged spy mission, not the banks or the governments and anyone other than Disney. The other stuff that you mentioned, for the most part, already exists. I'm sure you must realize that you presently cannot get a phone that doesn't have the ability to track you. You must realize that since I have GPS in my car as well as Onstar, I already am open to being tracked as we speak. The question is am I being tracked and for what purpose. The really evil stuff is part of our everyday life. Disney, on the other hand, has no power over me unless I am there in their range and then only if I let them. You are talking about two completely different things and completely different power and influence.

If you want to play Chicken Little and insist that the sky is falling, fine, but at least point it toward the areas that matter...government mostly! You are hinting to a conspiracy between Government and Disney to create a multi-billion dollar system that will help the Government....do what? Know how many people are in a theme park at any given time? And if it is something more sinister, such as the system, tweaked, will enable the Government to track us in everyday life and feeling that if we protest the system that Disney is attempting to develop we can stop the world wide threat of electronic surveillance, then which one is being naive about it. Now if all of a sudden the Government decides that instead of Social Security Cards we will be issued wrist bands, then I will wonder about it. Otherwise...not so much.

 

[MattM]

One anecdote that I shared with @Lee earlier and I sorta feel like it belongs here.

In Nov. 2001, I paid my first post 9/11 visit to DLR. One afternoon I was having lunch with George Kalogridis and a friend in media and talk went from plans for DCA's first holiday season and the new Luminaria show to the state of constant fear our nation had been under.

George didn't hesitate in telling me that I was safer at DL than anywhere else, despite the fact that it has likely been a target for wackos as long as I have been alive. In hindsight, there seemed to be more to the statement than wishful thinking. Over the years since , I can't help but notice all the military helicopters that fly over and around DL. Is DL getting daily flyovers from our military? Or are they just part of the military presence on the left coast and I am noticing them now when I never did pre-2001?

I do wish I had pushed George for an answer back then, but I was trying to escape the reality.

More likely, it is probably due to the extremely close proximity to two military base and training sites.

S

 

[MattM]

It would be a competitive edge for Disney... it would not do them any favors to try to share the experiences and promote it to other companies. Additionally in this space, raising awareness of what you are doing and to what degree will only invite more scrutiny.

I fully expect Disney to be MUM about it and not be the promoter as you suggest.

You are most likely right. Basic business sense goes against the grain of paranoia here though, sadly.

 

[rael ramone]

Wow....I can't believe how quickly this thread has been growing - I'm having trouble keeping up.

I have to agree with @WDWDad13. There is a lot we don't know about the system (specifics on what/how it functions) but I can't imagine TWDC building a system which is made to punish "low value guests" who don't spend enough or whose entire goal is to solely increase revenue at the expense of the guest experience.

WDW needs happy guests on property to stay happy and leave happy so they are willing to tell their friends and family how much fun their vacations was so first-timers go and others return. Is it not possible that this system is two-pronged: 1.) to increase Disney's revenue stream and 2.) to genuinely improve guest experience as they have said?

Let's for a moment ignore all the other (legitimate) concerns, and ignore that, while some legitimate infrastructure needs managed to sneak into what could now be a 3 billion budget, a very large percentage of this is being spent on this instead of a more wholesale infrastructure improvements or new attractions.

Will this truly enhance guest experience?

Under the legacy system, while you can't reserve 'experiences' in advance, you basically have an unlimited amount of fastpasses that you can get. Yes, you have to wait until it's time before you get your next one, and yes, some attractions can't be had unless you get one in the morning. But you can get one for most that have that option (and if you walk up to it and find it has a shorter line than you thought, you can jump in the short standby and use your next FP somewhere else. And if you start in the MK and decide you want edible food for lunch and go to Kona, you can go to MGM for the afternoon after. TSMM will be all out, but RNRC and TOT won't be in most cases. There's nothing like walking up to Maelstrom and, finding a 25 minute wait, getting a FP for it and doing something else for an hour (like, say, get a Cloudberry Horn or watch the China film), even though you were in a different park in the morning. With Legacy, if the slip says you can get another one, you can, as long as you are in a park and upright and the attraction has slots left. And if an attraction doesn't need it (due to ability to handle capacity, popularity, etc), then it doesn't have it, allowing efficient attractions to be efficient.

FP+, in addition of the reduction of FP's, has two other issues regarding just to FP's.

1) Being able to get to a FP 'experience' in time is much, much, more difficult if the Magical Motorcoach is a variable in making your time.
2) People who make dining ADR's, in a way, are locking themselves to different parks on different days. Just because you got a good ADR 180 days out doesn't mean there will be any good 'experiences' available in that same park 60 days out.

Maybe a person has less 'benefits' of Legacy if they aren't there at ropedrop. But, what's there to keep you up late at night? Unless it's a Saturday, a monsterously busy time, or during a hard ticket event, essentially last call is 9pm. It's actually easier to be up early at the House of Mouse then many of us in our own homes.

Purchasing doesn't seem to be easier with the band, since the convienence of wearing your KTTW card instead of it being in a wallet is cancelled out by the inconvienence of having to use a PIN.

Even if this wasn't designed to get deeper into my wallet while there, develop a profile that will subject me to SPAM when I get home, have that profile at an increased risk due to the combination of more people having access and TDO's data protection issues, and a possible increased risk of PHYSICAL harm to women & children on property due to data security/abundance of access, and while spending a huge amount of coin that could have done a whole lot of good in increased show standards on existing attractions, new attractions, physical infrastructure improvements, and just basic maintenance - the changes that this makes to attraction access, which they claim is it's biggest triumph, is actually (assuming that the guest doesn't fall victim to a data breach that harms them or their family physically or financially) it's biggest flaw.

 

[MattM]

Sure, not getting FP+ most certainly is "punishment" since it means standing in line needlessly for potentially hours each day; hours that could have avoiding by signing up for My Disney Experience. Unless, of course, you prefer standing in line and experiencing fewer attractions each day.

The current FP system is free, equally accessible to all guests. FP+ changes that; you have to register into Disney's billion dollar data collection system.

Universal charges for its Express Pass, either directly or through onsite resort rooms. What Universal is doing is pure capitalism. Disney could have gone the same route, could have charged for FP+ yet they opted to make FP+ "free" as long as you register in their database.

Perhaps more than anything, that should give you an appreciation of exactly how much Disney values your information.

Quoting the Gordon Gekko character in the film Wall Street, “The most valuable commodity I know of is information.”

Obviously, Disney agrees which should be cause for concern amongst all of us.

And I don't need FP or FP+. I simply go to Universal where they stick to old fashioned capitalism.

Just wanted to say, that even though I do not completely agree with everything you say regarding this project, you give the most eloquent, non-paranoid defense of why it should not happen. And you do so without belittling anyone who doesn't agree with you. Major props to you.

 

[GoofGoof]

I do not have a blog, but I am considering some options for the future.

As for what's here, I have faith that my fellow posters can help spread the word ...I do KNOW that Disney reads me religiously as do others in the business and within media in general.

Thanks for the kind words.

If you had a blog I would definitely read it, but I do enjoy this format as well. Sometimes it's hard to follow if we go off too far on tangents or if a troll shows up but I like the fact that you are willing to engage people in debate and some of the back and forth ends up being both entertaining and informative. Just my two cents.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Drones man, the drones. I do have a serious question for you since you are one of the more level headed people here, where do you think the money is being spent on this project? I know at my place of employment, we pay about 500 for a RFID sensor. This includes cabling back to the switch and server config. So you figure you add pretty Disney dressing to RFID sensor you are looking at the most 2,000. Now I am sure for hotel rooms you are probably going to get the cheap 500 sensor, but even at 2k a sensor half a billion would provide more than enough sensors to cover the whole property, switches, cabling, and all.

I think its just cost overruns and everyone using that as a giant pot of gold to get things done that have been ignored. Basic infastructure, catered lunches and everything inbetween, NGE is being used as an excuse to fund it.

Also I feel that contractors are getting as much money as they can out of the deal when it comes to the code.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Dave beat me to it. I have looked for the things that are along the National Mall and they are there.

Thats good... thats very good.

 

[Travel Junkie]

This seems appropriate to the conversation about how information can be used by companies. Substitute more work for an employee with how much a family can afford a magical vacation.

 

[PhotoDave219]

WDW(spirit)1974...to my knowledge this conversation is about Disney's alleged spy mission, not the banks or the governments and anyone other than Disney. The other stuff that you mentioned, for the most part, already exists. I'm sure you must realize that you presently cannot get a phone that doesn't have the ability to track you. You must realize that since I have GPS in my car as well as Onstar, I already am open to being tracked as we speak. The question is am I being tracked and for what purpose. The really evil stuff is part of our everyday life. Disney, on the other hand, has no power over me unless I am there in their range and then only if I let them. You are talking about two completely different things and completely different power and influence.

If you want to play Chicken Little and insist that the sky is falling, fine, but at least point it toward the areas that matter...government mostly! You are hinting to a conspiracy between Government and Disney to create a multi-billion dollar system that will help the Government....do what? Know how many people are in a theme park at any given time? And if it is something more sinister, such as the system, tweaked, will enable the Government to track us in everyday life and feeling that if we protest the system that Disney is attempting to develop we can stop the world wide threat of electronic surveillance, then which one is being naive about it. Now if all of a sudden the Government decides that instead of Social Security Cards we will be issued wrist bands, then I will wonder about it. Otherwise...not so much.

I think Disney needs more transparency about what data theyre capturing, why theyre doing it for why there suddenly partnering with a CIA contractor.

These are questions that need to be asked because Disney - for good or for bad - they've reached a level of public trust in our society and as a society, we dont expect that trust to be violated.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Go to this page of that companies website... http://www.iqt.org/portfolio/ict.html

It looks like a one stop shopping center for the entire project. Go through the companies they have partnered with and see if they look familiar with anything you have read.

It completely sounds like the database technologies that the military & intelligence communities used to help track down bad guys.

I would like to think that Disney is just using this as a way to help figure out crowd and guest behaviors. But there's just so much going on, it makes me suspicious. Especially when you start involving companies who's primary clients involve the US Intelligence Community.

 

[ChrisM]

"Welcome to Coast to Coast AM - this is Art Bell! Caller, you're on the air..."

 

[doc_holiday3500]

Let's for a moment ignore all the other (legitimate) concerns, and ignore that, while some legitimate infrastructure needs managed to sneak into what could now be a 3 billion budget, a very large percentage of this is being spent on this instead of a more wholesale infrastructure improvements or new attractions.

Will this truly enhance guest experience?

Under the legacy system, while you can't reserve 'experiences' in advance, you basically have an unlimited amount of fastpasses that you can get. Yes, you have to wait until it's time before you get your next one, and yes, some attractions can't be had unless you get one in the morning. But you can get one for most that have that option (and if you walk up to it and find it has a shorter line than you thought, you can jump in the short standby and use your next FP somewhere else. And if you start in the MK and decide you want edible food for lunch and go to Kona, you can go to MGM for the afternoon after. TSMM will be all out, but RNRC and TOT won't be in most cases. There's nothing like walking up to Maelstrom and, finding a 25 minute wait, getting a FP for it and doing something else for an hour (like, say, get a Cloudberry Horn or watch the China film), even though you were in a different park in the morning. With Legacy, if the slip says you can get another one, you can, as long as you are in a park and upright and the attraction has slots left. And if an attraction doesn't need it (due to ability to handle capacity, popularity, etc), then it doesn't have it, allowing efficient attractions to be efficient.

FP+, in addition of the reduction of FP's, has two other issues regarding just to FP's.

1) Being able to get to a FP 'experience' in time is much, much, more difficult if the Magical Motorcoach is a variable in making your time.
2) People who make dining ADR's, in a way, are locking themselves to different parks on different days. Just because you got a good ADR 180 days out doesn't mean there will be any good 'experiences' available in that same park 60 days out.

Maybe a person has less 'benefits' of Legacy if they aren't there at ropedrop. But, what's there to keep you up late at night? Unless it's a Saturday, a monsterously busy time, or during a hard ticket event, essentially last call is 9pm. It's actually easier to be up early at the House of Mouse then many of us in our own homes.

Purchasing doesn't seem to be easier with the band, since the convienence of wearing your KTTW card instead of it being in a wallet is cancelled out by the inconvienence of having to use a PIN.

Even if this wasn't designed to get deeper into my wallet while there, develop a profile that will subject me to SPAM when I get home, have that profile at an increased risk due to the combination of more people having access and TDO's data protection issues, and a possible increased risk of PHYSICAL harm to women & children on property due to data security/abundance of access, and while spending a huge amount of coin that could have done a whole lot of good in increased show standards on existing attractions, new attractions, physical infrastructure improvements, and just basic maintenance - the changes that this makes to attraction access, which they claim is it's biggest triumph, is actually (assuming that the guest doesn't fall victim to a data breach that harms them or their family physically or financially) it's biggest flaw.

Like I mentioned I will reserve judgement until it is in place (the sky hasn't fallen yet). I do however agree with your thoughts on fast pass changes. I hope that many of these concerns not only can be addressed but will be. This is why I expect a more expensive ticket which will give access to fast passes similar to the legacy program - limited by time/availability, available the same day, and most importantly in multiple parks. This would ultimately allow guests to maintain more freedom while Disney made more off of the ticket. I, Like many, would pay this nominal fee for the convienance.

 

[PhotoDave219]

"Welcome to Coast to Coast AM - this is Art Bell! Caller, you're on the air..."

Who is Art Bell?

 

[wdisney9000]

Who is Art Bell?

Late night radio show host. They discuss paranormal, ufo, ghosts and such. Art has retired and the show is now hosted by George Noory.

 

[RunnerEd]

It completely sounds like the database technologies that the military & intelligence communities used to help track down bad guys.

I would like to think that Disney is just using this as a way to help figure out crowd and guest behaviors. But there's just so much going on, it makes me suspicious. Especially when you start involving companies who's primary clients involve the US Intelligence Community.

As someone who has experience in this field, I can tell you that many civilian applications are adopted by the military and customized for our use. Just because the CIA uses Excel for example (insert software package), doesn't mean that Disney's use of that software has frightening, invasive overtones. I'm not familiar with the contractors or products that have been listed so I can't comment on them directly.

 

[Lee]

As a clarification, there will be FP+ available same day......just so long as they don't "sell out" in advance. It will be a first come first serve situation, with no FP held back for day guests.

So if you arrive at Epcot and find all the Soarin FP were booked weeks ago, or if you want to take your toddler on Dumbo and find that the only available time is 10:30pm...you are just SOL. Welcome to Standby City, or pick up a nice FP for Nemo or Tiki Room. (If you can get one...)

 

[1023]

It occurs to me, that we may all be seeing the security or privacy issue so starkly that we are missing all of the other facets. This NGE investment represents far more than monitoring as many here have identified, but let's look at this drilling down from the big picture at each layer. Let's examine the process wearing different hats, (Executive, Marketing, etc). Based on the list of "partners" Disney has with NGE we will start at the beginning. Below is a process by which all things must flow.(Get out your flow chart materials now.)

"Trudy" calls the Walt Disney Travel Company to book her family vacation. She navigates the increasingly longer phone menu and waits on hold. During her "magical medley of music" hold time, she hears of the wonderful online booking methods available from "our customer friendly website". (Should she choose to hang up and book through that portal not only is there a cost savings in payroll, she is giving Disney advance profile information to the company through her browser.) Let's stick with the phone call.

"Thea", at the Walt Disney Travel Company, picks up the line and delivers the syrupy sweet intro script a bevy of physiologists and social scientists have rankled with for decades. "Trudy" in turn tells this CM on the phone that she would like book her family vacation in June 2014 right after the kids are out of school. (Holy cow, look at all the information she just gave up. Of course, she is going to have to give it up any or else she couldn't book the trip.) "Trudy", books her trip for one week at a deluxe resort on property with MYW built right in. As "Trudy" selected to do the "survey" at the end of the call, she wades through that menu before hanging up.

Now during the course of that interaction, she coughed up a ton of information and she is still isn't done. The CM on the phone told her that she would immediately receive an email on her trip and could start planning specific details now and in the future. (Of course, she is not aware yet that her google email has been "processed" from this "outside source". But I digress.) "Trudy runs to her computer. Sure enough, there is an email from Walt Disney Travel, P&R, or similar entity. She clicks the link and credentials are established.(On the back end, Disney has an IP address, ISP and triangulation of geographic location. Not that they needed the address, she just gave it to them.) "Trudy" can now start planning her trip.

As a special promotion, (and for my story to hold up), "Trudy" gets early access to all the long range planning tools. She books everyone's FPPs, ADRs, and a Blizzard Beach day. She leaves a gap on day on her calendar because her daughter really love the Harry Potter books. "Trudy's" wife, (see what I did there) loves to shop and enjoy adult beverages so they plan on a "Disney Springs"/DTD visit or two. "Trudy" gets up from the computer and is thrilled that all her "Magical" vacation plans are assured.

The above describes the process crafted by TWDC and it's been mostly the same for a good long time. Now, with NGE, "Trudy" has given a more complete profile than she comprehends. She has given everyone's name, defined the types of attractions they prefer, what parks are most important, and what type of food and beverage customer they are. All this information was scattered about and available before, however, now it's correlated into one profile package full of data points. It's a first step toward your customer as a product. Maybe Disney won't sell this valuable information to others or provide it to their "partners". (This last sentence was brought to you by the tin foil hat and racket club, of which I am only a partial member.)

This is only the first layer and we still aren't done refining that "guest" profile on "Trudy" and her family. So, let's fast forward to their vacation. Our "heroine" and her family arrive. Having already received their "bracelets of power and magic", all they have to do is check in. They pull up in their rental car, (data point - car 1) and talk with the friendly security guard who let's them in. In the old days, the call from the security guard to the front desk that the "Smith" family was coming in would have put that folio in the "Arrival" file on the desk.With NGE, the call is merely a redundancy (and system redundancy is key).

"Trudy's" kids already have the "shackles of super" on their wrists as they exit the car. The valet greets the "Smith" family using their last name (not a new trick, they've been striving for that for years at DVCs). "Trudy" approaches the front desk and the CM again greets her by last name. This is a static opportunity to begin the biometric facial recognition and IR/heat profile. "So I see you have a car (data point - car 1) and you'll be needing a parking pass for your length of stay (data point - stay 7)". "Trudy" takes the pass put it in the car and gives bell services the 6 bags (data point - bags 6) from the trunk so she can park the car. "Trudy's" wife buys the kids "length of stay" mugs (data point - mugs 2) and buys herself some "magical sunglasses" (data point - small sundries 1) while they wait for her to return. So now we know that "Trudy's" wife likes "perceived extra value" items (mugs 2) and likes "Magical" spontaneous items (small sundries 1).

Within the first 15 minutes of the family's arrival, I am adding to the marketing portion of the profile and discovered that we missed a sale on travel with the rental car. (Thank you "Thea", you will be getting a reminder to ask for the "add-on".) I think NGE is already starting to pay for itself with just this information. It isn't just the compiling of data, (they could and probably have for years in this regard) it's that it will be boiled down and targeted by every department in seconds. They are not just cobbling together information from incompatible systems. They are knocking it down and "re-building" the guest experience.

"Holy wall of text Batman.." I sure tend to ramble on. I have more layers I want to explore and I am sure many of you are seeing them too. Don't worry, I'll continue on in a bit after I take care of a few things. {sarcasm} I know you are all hanging on every word and insight.{/sarcasm}

*1023*

 

[PhotoDave219]

As someone who has experience in this field, I can tell you that many civilian applications are adopted by the military and customized for our use. Just because the CIA uses Excel for example (insert software package), doesn't mean that Disney's use of that software has frightening, invasive overtones. I'm not familiar with the contractors or products that have been listed so I can't comment on them directly.

Yeah, but this isnt like customizing Excel. If theyre working with a company who primarly works with the IC, i want some serious transparancy about what theyre doing.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Late night radio show host. They discuss paranormal, ufo, ghosts and such. Art has retired and the show is now hosted by George Noory.

And this is relevant here.... exactly how?