DisneylandForward

[coffeefan]

I don't, I'm on record as saying a 3rd gate is never coming.

TSL will be used for a Disney Springs hotel/retail space.
And the west side will be used for expansion. DCA with 3 additional lands, with 2-3 attractions each. DL with 3 additional lands, with 2-3 attractions each. For a total of up to 12-18 attractions.

A third gate would sell more hotel rooms and vacation packages. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Disney Springs is a big factor in people choosing to vacation at WDW.

Brickey made a good video on this topic not long ago. I time-stamped to that part below.

 

[Disney Irish]

A third gate has more likelihood than another shopping district when the first one is already a dud.

Disagree especially since Disney Spring is shown to be popular and they even tried to turn DTD into its own version of Disney Springs with the recent remodels.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

When that new fence along Disneyland Dr. started going in, I thought maybe it could temporary (and by that I mean under ten years) and be removed as necessary when they expanded DCA over to Simba. But seeing that it looks like they're pouring a continuous concrete foundation (or something) along the bottom of the fence has me wondering just how permanent they intend it. Not that they couldn't remove it still.
View attachment 909912

Sure I love a curved bridge myself. It's just an awkward needle to thread now unless the Hotel is affected or the new Fence is affected, which as I said, is totally still possible.

If the bridge is at park grade (and the street lowers) there are a bunch of parameters with the hotel entries on either side, the distance from the intersection with Katella to get down 18 feet or so, interesting obstacles all around.
View attachment 909937

My guess is they still go through the current backstage gate area, it’s the simplest alignment and gives them the most room to lower the street between Katella and the PP/GC hotel entrances.

When they were digging the sonotube foundations for this wall I was shocked how deep they went, speculating they were for retaining purposes, I still think that was early prep work for the future lowering of DL drive. I agree the foundation is being built as a permanent structure but think the fence on top would be an easy removal in the future and wouldn’t factor into where a future bridge over DL drive might go. Will be interesting to see what happens over the next decade and see how it plays out.

 

[Disney Irish]

A third gate would sell more hotel rooms and vacation packages. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Disney Springs is a big factor in people choosing to vacation at WDW.

Brickey made a good video on this topic not long ago. I time-stamped to that part below.

Any new expansion would sell more hotel rooms and vacation packages because it'll be more to do leading to more days being added up. Also even this 3rd gate scenario we're talking about here its suggested to turn Simba into the hotel/retail section like a Disney Springs. So this idea that we're getting an expansion without a Disney Springs area is not going to happen.

And a Brickey video isn't proof of anything, he has his own opinions that even he says doesn't line up with Disney many times.

 

[Distorian]

Disagree especially since Disney Spring is shown to be popular and they even tried to turn DTD into its own version of Disney Springs with the recent remodels.

Different market (no pun intended). WDW is for tourists, Disneyland is for locals, i.e. Los Angeles residents. Los Angelenos aren't going to drive to Anaheim just to go shopping where they have to pay for parking and go through security when they can go to the Americana. The Anaheim Resort District has both Downtown Disney and Garden Walk, neither of which are popular. Why would a third shopping district be the success?

 

[mickEblu]

Disagree especially since Disney Spring is shown to be popular and they even tried to turn DTD into its own version of Disney Springs with the recent remodels.

Wouldn’t Disney rather have us pay for the cow then give us the milk for free? Why give away Disney Springs for free when you can charge $100 + per day cover charge for a differently themed outdoor mall (+ a few rides)?

 

[Disney Irish]

Different market (no pun intended). WDW is for tourists, Disneyland is for locals, i.e. Los Angeles residents. Los Angelenos aren't going to drive to Anaheim just to go shopping where they have to pay for parking and go through security when they can go to the Americana. The Anaheim Resort District has both Downtown Disney and Garden Walk, neither of which are popular. Why would a third shopping district be the success?

It wouldn't be exclusively like Disney Springs, it would be a hotel and shopping district. Where they can get that 5 diamond hotel they were going to build on top of the DLH parking lot that got cancelled. Also you assume they keep DTD in that scenario, but rather what if they use it for potential future expansion meaning that only one shopping district would then exist. And well we already know about Garden Walk and how its always on the verge of going under and being sold every 10 years, so that isn't a factor. Heck they could even throw in several upcharge themed experiences within the area.

 

[Disney Irish]

Wouldn’t Disney rather have us pay for the cow then give us the milk for free? Why give away Disney Springs for free when you can charge $100 + per day cover charge for a differently themed outdoor mall (+ a few rides)?

Logistics, its a word we all really need to get used to thinking about when talking about the future of DLForward.

Logistically there is so much to think about when talking about a 3rd gate. Not only do you have to think about the park itself and all its needs like backstage services, etc., but you also have to think about the surrounding areas and all the guest traffic flow and how to get the guests to and from this 3rd gate. Are you going to make them walk? You going to install a peoplemover, you going to extend the Monorail, you going to install a Skyway? And is Anaheim going to let you do any of that, and how are the neighbors going to react. We all saw what happened with the EGW and the backlash that had when none of that was thought of, just image a new 3rd gate and now not only the Harbor Businesses but now also all the housing complexes around the TSL. Its a mess.

So no I don't think Disney is going to just want us to spend $100+ on a 3rd ticket, also why would you want to when you can get all of the same stuff included within your existing DL/DCA tickets.

 

[mickEblu]

Logistics, its a word we all really need to get used to thinking about when talking about the future of DLForward.

Logistically there is so much to think about when talking about a 3rd gate. Not only do you have to think about the park itself and all its needs like backstage services, etc., but you also have to think about the surrounding areas and all the guest traffic flow and how to get the guests to and from this 3rd gate. Are you going to make them walk? You going to install a peoplemover, you going to extend the Monorail, you going to install a Skyway? And is Anaheim going to let you do any of that, and how are the neighbors going to react. We all saw what happened with the EGW and the backlash that had when none of that was thought of, just image a new 3rd gate and now not only the Harbor Businesses but now also all the housing complexes around the TSL. Its a mess.

So no I don't think Disney is going to just want us to spend $100+ on a 3rd ticket, also why would you want to when you can get all of the same stuff included within your existing DL/DCA tickets.

Easy. Skyway. Backstage can be solved.

You’re not getting the same stuff with a World showcase case park though. With DL Forward plots you re talking 5 single IP lands max and then that’s it. If 1-2 of those are a more broadly themed land or Fantasy Springs style that would help.

Anyway I look forward to the day the 3rd gate is announced. I’ll be here to remind you. Haha

 

[Distorian]

While discuss Resort planning, I just want to take a moment to lament that this variant of the Resort never came about. Looking at this, you can really see the national optimism of the 1990's on display. Additional side tangent, the real reason Disneyland suffers now is it has been consumed by the pessimism of modernity instead of being a beacon of hope and wonder that it was once, but that's a rant for another time.

Although we all know I'm a DCA shill and actually have very little interest in Westcot, the presence of the lagoon, rerouted Monorail, People Movers, amphitheater, and other new infrastructure tickles my city-planning 'tism. I would be far more interested in "DisneylandForward" if it focused on Resort infrastructure like this. The new parking structure and skybridge is most anticipated addition to Disneyland in over a decade.

It wouldn't be exclusively like Disney Springs, it would be a hotel and shopping district. Where they can get that 5 diamond hotel they were going to build on top of the DLH parking lot that got cancelled. Also you assume they keep DTD in that scenario, but rather what if they use it for potential future expansion meaning that only one shopping district would then exist. And well we already know about Garden Walk and how its always on the verge of going under and being sold every 10 years, so that isn't a factor. Heck they could even throw in several upcharge themed experiences within the area.

I just don't see the demand for that. And honestly, if there was, I say tear down the Disneyland Hotel, Paradise Pier hotel and build it there. I'm not opposed to a new shopping and hotel district for the park, but I think consolidating it all into one central location, stretching from Katella to Magic Way, like what was planned in the 90's concept art above, would be the better option.

The Toy Story Lot has a great issue of being just too far removed from the parks (hence why I think if it were to be used as a third gate, it would make sense to have the entrance be along Disney Way, right next to the new parking structure) and for that reason I think a shopping district there would suffer, just like Garden Walk does, even with the Disney name attached.

 

[coffeefan]

Any new expansion would sell more hotel rooms and vacation packages because it'll be more to do leading to more days being added up. Also even this 3rd gate scenario we're talking about here its suggested to turn Simba into the hotel/retail section like a Disney Springs. So this idea that we're getting an expansion without a Disney Springs area is not going to happen.

And a Brickey video isn't proof of anything, he has his own opinions that even he says doesn't line up with Disney many times.

Disney Springs is away from the parks, so the comparison to Simba is not the same.

Booking a vacation to a three park resort sounds a lot more appealing than a two park resort, hence Universal's 4-park campaign.


Imagine a campaign like this, but for DLR.

 

[Disney Irish]

Easy. Skyway. Backstage can be solved.

Is it easy? Is that even able to get approved by Anaheim? And how would that be affected by Anaheim's own potential gondola project they are considering for the Triangle?

You’re not getting the same stuff with a World showcase case park though. With DL Forward plots you re talking 5 single IP lands max and then that’s it. If you 1-2 of those are a more broadly themed land or Fantasy Springs style that would help.

You're not thinking logistically because you're stuck on WS. You can split each of the plots on the DCA and DL side into 3-4 distinct areas for a total of 6-8 lands. You could have each represent a single IP, or you could even have for example the DCA side have 4 geographical regions (Asia, Americas, Europe, Africa) still giving you a bit of your WS flavor, similar to what @coffeefan suggested but for the west side expansion. Heck you could still have your lagoon in that scenario. So you could still get up to 12-18 attractions (which is likely more than your WS idea) due to not having to have all the backstage stuff since it would be covered by what is already in DL and DCA. This gives the most flexibility due to not having to worry about all the extra logistical stuff.

Anyway I look forward to the day the 3rd gate is announced. I’ll be here to remind you. Haha

I'm sure you will be, just like I'll be here to remind you when they announce they are breaking ground on the new hotel and shopping district with that 4th Disney hotel.

 

[Disney Irish]

Disney Springs is away from the parks, so the comparison to Simba is not the same.

Booking a vacation to a three park resort sounds a lot more appealing than a two park resort, hence Universal's 4-park campaign.


Imagine a campaign like this, but for DLR.

So you would rather pay an extra $100-200/day just for a 3rd gate when you could get potentially the same thing for the existing cost of your two park ticket? That seems illogical.

Also as someone who has to book a stay in Anaheim anyways because I'm not local, I'm booking more days if there is more stuff to do no matter if there is a 3rd park or not. If I'm getting the equivalent third gate experience for a two gate cost, I'm going to take the two gate cost any day of the week and twice on Sundays. And that is why I look at this difference, I'm not local, I'm thinking like a tourist because that is exactly what I am.

 

[mickEblu]

You're not thinking logistically because you're stuck on WS. You can split each of the plots on the DCA and DL side into 3-4 distinct areas for a total of 6-8 lands. You could have each represent a single IP, or you could even have for example the DCA side have 4 geographical regions (Asia, Americas, Europe, Africa) still giving you a bit of your WS flavor, similar to what @coffeefan suggested but for the west side expansion. Heck you could still have your lagoon in that scenario. So you could still get up to 12-18 attractions (which is likely more than your WS idea) due to not having to have all the backstage stuff since it would be covered by what is already in DL and DCA. This gives the most flexibility due to not having to worry about all the extra logistical stuff.

8 no way. Maybe 6. If we're talking modern sized lands I can see maybe 5-6 being the max. 2 on the DL side and 3 (maybeeeee 4) on the DCA side.

I like the continents idea. I didnt know that was an idea for Westcot.

I don't understand how bring out the ruler for my idea and then say I the same conversation they can for 12-18 attractions on the DL Forward plots. That seems very far fetched unless we're talking about 12 flat rides.

 

[mickEblu]

So you would rather pay an extra $100-200/day just for a 3rd gate when you could get potentially the same thing for the existing cost of your two park ticket? That seems illogical.

Also as someone who has to book a stay in Anaheim anyways because I'm not local, I'm booking more days if there is more stuff to do no matter if there is a 3rd park or not. If I'm getting the equivalent third gate experience for a two gate cost, I'm going to take the two gate cost any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Now read what you said above from Disney's perspective.

 

[Disney Irish]

Now read what you said above from Disney's perspective.

I have, now think about all the logical stuff from Disney's perspective.

 

[Distorian]

So you would rather pay an extra $100-200/day just for a 3rd gate when you could get potentially the same thing for the existing cost of your two park ticket? That seems illogical.

Also as someone who has to book a stay in Anaheim anyways because I'm not local, I'm booking more days if there is more stuff to do no matter if there is a 3rd park or not. If I'm getting the equivalent third gate experience for a two gate cost, I'm going to take the two gate cost any day of the week and twice on Sundays. And that is why I look at this difference, I'm not local, I'm thinking like a tourist because that is exactly what I am.

How is a shopping district the equivalent of a third theme park? One is a shopping district with chain stores and restaurants and the other is a theme park with themed lands and attractions.

 

[Disney Irish]

8 no way. Maybe 6. If we're talking modern sized lands I can see maybe 5-6 being the max. 2 on the DL side and 3 (maybeeeee 4) on the DCA side.

I like the continents idea. I didnt know that was an idea for Westcot.

I don't understand how bring out the ruler for my idea and then say I the same conversation they can for 12-18 attractions on the DL Forward plots. That seems very far fetched unless we're talking about 12 flat rides.

Again logistics.

With the DL/DCA expansion you don't need as much backstage stuff as you use the existing stuff from the Resort, so you get to reclaim more of that for actual land usage. Unlike your 3rd gate which would need all that backstage stuff since its too far from the rest of the Resort, not to mention all the guess traffic flow, etc.

 

[mickEblu]

I have, now think about all the logical stuff from Disney's perspective.

ok hold on let me put my Disney reading glasses on:

This Disney Irish guy is crazy

 

[Disney Irish]

How is a shopping district the equivalent of a third theme park? One is a shopping district with chain stores and restaurants and the other is a theme park with themed lands and attractions.

I didn't say it was equivalent.

What I said is from a consumer stand point they are booking a vacation anyways when there is more stuff to do not just because there is a 3rd gate.

Do you think that people would book less vacations to WDW if there were three parks instead of four but the same amount of stuff to do? No of course not. So its silly to think that just because a 3rd park is added that more vacations are going to be booked over expanding DL/DCA with the equivalent experience.