Universal Epic Universe (South Expansion Complex) - Now Open!

[hopemax]

Individual, mid-day hack for savvy WDWMagic readers. Same as how depending on what you're doing it's easier to transfer at a hotel at WDW.

I don't think most people are going to be deterred by the City Walk setup. Mostly, because people won't be interested in hopping preferring to spend full days at each campus. For those that do, it takes quite a bit of time and more than a few steps to park hop at WDW in comparison. In April, we checked out of Stella Nova, drove to the parking garage, took a bus to Helios Grand for breakfast and then bused back before heading to IOA. It was fine.

Definitely recommend staying at Stella Nova for Epic visits. On our unplanned 2nd day, we drove, and that walk felt more unpleasant than the one from Stella Nova, even with crossing a road.

 

[JoeCamel]

I know where it is but have never stayed there or walked over there. Do you think there would be space/capacity to add a real bus transfer spot intended for this purpose for all resort guests that wouldn't detract from the HR guests in that area or are you thinking more as an individual hack?

Seems like even with it being a bit more of a walk, it would be better than having to trudge through all of Citywalk.

No there isn't unless you destroy the ambience of the hotel

 

[Andrew25]

They could theoretically build a bus drop off area at the Valet parking spot by the USF arches and then build a small parking garage for Hard Rock guests.

Thought that would have been the better idea for resort guests with security constantly backing up at the main parking garages.

 

[Disney Analyst]

I think it’ll definitely shift things, but not in the way Potter did. Potter turned the market on its head and completely changed the design philosophy for theme parks. Epic doesn’t really do that, at least not to the same extent.

Park hopping from USF/IOA to the Epic resort area is unfortunately such a chore that I can’t see myself doing it.

I love Potter, and the ground it broke in terms of theme and immersion.

But I also think Potter broke something else. It made these companies think they need to dedicate entire lands to singular IP, which is think is a travesty in a lot of ways. Not to say it isn't suitable now and again, but I do wish more new lands would encompass broader themes. Do these single IP lands eventually become dated, and have to be fully bulldozed one day, versus just replacing old attractions in an existing land?

Tropical Americas is a good example of this, using multiple IP's to execute a theme, which seems rare these days.

 

[Disneyhead'71]

it is telling that most of the universal defenders have gone quiet in this thread

Just cause I dropped my phone in a lake Wednesday. The insurance brought me back today.

And yes, the biggest issue and the reason for the early closing hours is they didn't even come close to their hiring target, and as always happens, some of their new hires aren't working out.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

I also think because it’s been so long since a new park has opened in the US, people have poor expectations of what a brand new park is supposed to have and be like. I have been around long enough to remember the underwhelming and often negative reaction and marketing desperation surrounding the opening of both AK and DCA, and I don't get the same sense of that about Epic. For Epic, people want *more* while DCA was, "Why the heck did they build it like this?" and AK was a lot of confusion by the general public. Building out more is a much more solvable problem than people rejecting your entire underlying concept.

Disney purposely underbuilt MGM-Studios, AK, DCA, WDSP and HKDL and is still paying the price for all of them.

Hopefully Epic doesn't wait 5-10 years at a time to add a new ride.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

EPCOT Center visitation was very close to Magic Kingdom visitation. Despite the financial troubles at the studio, the parks remained so profitable that the entire company remained profitable. The story of EPCOT Center struggling out of the gate is just that, a story pushed by Roy E. to help justify his actions against his cousin’s husband whose ideas and successes would also be attributed to others.

People talk for good reason about the pettiness of Jeffrey Katzenberg against Disney and vice versa.

I mean, we have one of the most successful animated franchises in history because of it

But Roy E Disney's beef with Ron Miller is severely underappreciated. Roy really did wonders to reshape his public image and historical connection with his uncle (the same one who didn't think much of him when he was alive) in the decades following Ron's removal from the company.

 

[mkt]

In regards to TM issues (attitudes, lack of knowledge, etc.) being a "teething" thing for Epic Universe, I'd like to point out that any negative interactions between my first visit to Orlando in '07 and now (that were bad enough for me to remember) have taken place almost exclusively at Universal Parks. I wonder if they have a different onboarding process there than they do out in Hollywood? Because I don't have any recollection of any one particularly bad TM experience out here on the West coast (-and I've been visiting since I was a child).

But I've had awful experiences with rude, unknowledgeable or inefficient TMs in places like Poseidon's Fury, Skull Island: Reign of Kong, Thunder Falls Terrace, Hollywood Rip Ride Rockit, etc. and not really one interaction that stands out as being particularly memorable in a good way (as far as front line, interactable TMs are concerned) over my many trips there.

Maybe it's just the weather or something? But if their other parks still haven't ironed out this kink in the nearly 35 years they've been around, then I don't exactly have high hopes in the long run for this particular issue at Epic, either.

I know for a fact Universal completely overhauled and expanded their corporate training in preparation for Epic. They also beefed up leadership – promoting some of their best in-house and pulling seasoned folks from Disney, SeaWorld, and other parks across the industry. If you look at some of the names and resumes, it’s like a who’s who of top-tier talent.

Unfortunately, it wasn’t enough. Some longtime Universal Orlando leaders just aren’t adapting to modern expectations, and the staffing pool isn’t deep enough to meet the level of service Epic deserves.

At the end of the day, I genuinely don’t think there are enough willing and qualified people in Central Florida who want to work in theme parks anymore. And unlike Disney, Universal doesn’t have a strong, well-run college program bringing in talent from around the country (and world) to close that gap.

 

[Tom Morrow]

Two points I'd like to add about CMs vs. TMs:

1. The majority if people who move to Orlando specifically to work in theme parks at least start at Disney. Universal's staffing is more significantly filled by locals who aren't particularly enthusiastic about the parks but a job is a job. There are still many TMs that actually care about theme parks and are enthusiastic about them working there, but you are more likely to encounter these types at Disney.

2. Disney has an overall leadership policy that leans too heavily in favor of the guest at the detriment of the CMs. Universal is kind of the opposite, leaning a little too heavily toward favoring the TM at the detriment of the guest experience. The result is that Universal is typically regarded as a better place to work, but a worse guest service experience for visitors.

That said, I still think Universal has among the better theme park guest service in the industry, its just still, on average, several steps below Disney's (even with Disney's also having fallen a bit).

I know for a fact Universal completely overhauled and expanded their corporate training in preparation for Epic. They also beefed up leadership – promoting some of their best in-house and pulling seasoned folks from Disney, SeaWorld, and other parks across the industry. If you look at some of the names and resumes, it’s like a who’s who of top-tier talent.

Unfortunately, everything I know about how the parks are run tells me that the people being boosted upward are very much often not people who care about theme parks, but just people who are good at playing the game. This is true for every job and field I guess, but unfortunately, it's no different with the parks.

Unfortunately, it wasn’t enough. Some longtime Universal Orlando leaders just aren’t adapting to modern expectations, and the staffing pool isn’t deep enough to meet the level of service Epic deserves.

At the end of the day, I genuinely don’t think there are enough willing and qualified people in Central Florida who want to work in theme parks anymore. And unlike Disney, Universal doesn’t have a strong, well-run college program bringing in talent from around the country (and world) to close that gap.

I had wondered about this prior to Epic opening. There were already more guest service and hospitality jobs in the Orlando area than there are people who want to work them. Epic has only made it worse.

 

[jrhwdw]

 

[mkt]

Two points I'd like to add about CMs vs. TMs:

1. The majority if people who move to Orlando specifically to work in theme parks at least start at Disney. Universal's staffing is more significantly filled by locals who aren't particularly enthusiastic about the parks but a job is a job. There are still many TMs that actually care about theme parks and are enthusiastic about them working there, but you are more likely to encounter these types at Disney.

I would tend to agree, but Potter and Nintendo swung the pendulum nearer to parity.

2. Disney has an overall leadership policy that leans too heavily in favor of the guest at the detriment of the CMs. Universal is kind of the opposite, leaning a little too heavily toward favoring the TM at the detriment of the guest experience. The result is that Universal is typically regarded as a better place to work, but a worse guest service experience for visitors.

Culturally, this is spot on, but most of their policies and procedures are nearly identical.

Unfortunately, everything I know about how the parks are run tells me that the people being boosted upward are very much often not people who care about theme parks, but just people who are good at playing the game. This is true for every job and field I guess, but unfortunately, it's no different with the parks.

That’s just corporate America in a nutshell.

 

[Tom Morrow]

Culturally, this is spot on, but most of their policies and procedures are nearly identical.

Yep. On paper, they're nearly identical.

That’s just corporate America in a nutshell.

Unfortunately.

 

[maxairmike]

So I’ve been 3 times, and I really don’t get all the complaints about the park not being fully immersive in certain lands. I’ve ridden Stardust and Hiccup’s several times, and not once was I pulled out of the experience on either by outside views/intrusions. I noticed the cherry picker on Hiccup’s the first time, but it was very much a “oh, what’s tha…woah this is fun!” thing that had 0 impact on the experience. Both coasters are so fun that I think you have to be purposely ignoring the ride experience to look for these things, and I know how that goes because I purposely pull myself out of experiences to look at the technical stuff at times. I stood around for the Burning Blade a few times, and nothing pulled me out of the experience. Helios being visible never once impacted me. Sure, the HTTYD theater facade could have been better, but I didn’t even notice/think twice about it my 2nd and 3rd visits.

I very much think a product should be the absolute best it can be, and I’m fine saying things maybe should/could have been better, but I think a lot of the criticism is overblown in terms of the realistic impact it has on the experience, and takes away from other criticisms that are probably more legitimately impactful to the average guest and not those of us that willingly and deliberately look for the stuff like this at the expense of our enjoyment.

 

[DarkMetroid567]

So I’ve been 3 times, and I really don’t get all the complaints about the park not being fully immersive in certain lands. I’ve ridden Stardust and Hiccup’s several times, and not once was I pulled out of the experience on either by outside views/intrusions. I noticed the cherry picker on Hiccup’s the first time, but it was very much a “oh, what’s tha…woah this is fun!” thing that had 0 impact on the experience. Both coasters are so fun that I think you have to be purposely ignoring the ride experience to look for these things, and I know how that goes because I purposely pull myself out of experiences to look at the technical stuff at times. I stood around for the Burning Blade a few times, and nothing pulled me out of the experience. Helios being visible never once impacted me. Sure, the HTTYD theater facade could have been better, but I didn’t even notice/think twice about it my 2nd and 3rd visits.

I very much think a product should be the absolute best it can be, and I’m fine saying things maybe should/could have been better, but I think a lot of the criticism is overblown in terms of the realistic impact it has on the experience, and takes away from other criticisms that are probably more legitimately impactful to the average guest and not those of us that willingly and deliberately look for the stuff like this at the expense of our enjoyment.

I’m picking up what you mean, but I think these parks are works of art and can be treated as such. I don’t think this take is any different than the “just turn your brain off and have fun” comments that some blockbuster movies get. I really enjoy the MCU movies even when they have bad plots or awful CGI.

You’re right that these immersion breaks are not a huge deal and many won’t even notice. But I think some will, and I don’t think it’s overly negative to point it out. I love Hiccup’s but the first few seconds of the ride are really ugly lol

 

[Disney Analyst]

So I’ve been 3 times, and I really don’t get all the complaints about the park not being fully immersive in certain lands. I’ve ridden Stardust and Hiccup’s several times, and not once was I pulled out of the experience on either by outside views/intrusions. I noticed the cherry picker on Hiccup’s the first time, but it was very much a “oh, what’s tha…woah this is fun!” thing that had 0 impact on the experience. Both coasters are so fun that I think you have to be purposely ignoring the ride experience to look for these things, and I know how that goes because I purposely pull myself out of experiences to look at the technical stuff at times. I stood around for the Burning Blade a few times, and nothing pulled me out of the experience. Helios being visible never once impacted me. Sure, the HTTYD theater facade could have been better, but I didn’t even notice/think twice about it my 2nd and 3rd visits.

I very much think a product should be the absolute best it can be, and I’m fine saying things maybe should/could have been better, but I think a lot of the criticism is overblown in terms of the realistic impact it has on the experience, and takes away from other criticisms that are probably more legitimately impactful to the average guest and not those of us that willingly and deliberately look for the stuff like this at the expense of our enjoyment.

Okay but the cherry picker is like… stupidly bad. Have they not found a way to cover it up yet?!

 

[SplashJacket]

Regarding the comments about inexperienced TMs, with a new park, these TMs have only been at their venues for at most a few months.

Next was a Disney College Program CM who noticed us taking all kinds of photos in Restaurant-osaurus. She shared her story with us, about how she was majoring in theme parks/tourism and how big of a Joe Rhode fan she was before escorting us around the restaurant and pointing out all sorts of little hidden details and secrets for us to make sure we had photos of, along with sharing some stories about them. To some she was just a janitor but for us, she transcended her role into something wonderful and memorable.

An interaction like the one detailed above would be tough to have -- at say Celine, because these TMs are new to their venues, and even though this CM was a CP, their product knowledge (like their love of Joe Rhode) likely extended far before their program.

Most people who work at Disney and Universal are fans of the respective products, and many grew up going to these parks.

With Epic, no one grew up going to Epic. If I got a job today at Epcot, I could tell you just about the location of every restaurant, bathroom, Guest service, etc. A job at Epic, I would have no clue beyond the utmost basics (I don't know the bathrooms, Guest Service kiosks, etc.) because I haven't had the years of experiencing the park to build that institutional knowledge.

We often take for granted how knowledgeable CMs are, but it's from such a high level of product knowledge/familiarity that doesn't materialize overnight.

 

[MrPromey]

Regarding the comments about inexperienced TMs, with a new park, these TMs have only been at their venues for at most a few months.

An interaction like the one detailed above would be tough to have -- at say Celine, because these TMs are new to their venues, and even though this CM was a CP, their product knowledge (like their love of Joe Rhode) likely extended far before their program.

Most people who work at Disney and Universal are fans of the respective products, and many grew up going to these parks.

With Epic, no one grew up going to Epic. If I got a job today at Epcot, I could tell you just about the location of every restaurant, bathroom, Guest service, etc. A job at Epic, I would have no clue beyond the utmost basics (I don't know the bathrooms, Guest Service kiosks, etc.) because I haven't had the years of experiencing the park to build that institutional knowledge.

We often take for granted how knowledgeable CMs are, but it's from such a high level of product knowledge/familiarity that doesn't materialize overnight.

Regarding experience in general though, I wonder if an effort was made to offer transfers from the existing two parks.

Seems like this would have been a good opportunity to move some experienced TMs into roles in the new park to both counter some of the challenges with the newbies and to also just even things out in general by putting some of the new people into existing roles in the other two.

I mean, a new park is a challenge for anyone but a stand selling freestyle Coke cups and churros should operate pretty much the same, anywhere, right?

Someone familiar with their retail system in one park should be able to work a register in this one without blinking, right?

Maybe they did that?

 

[flynnibus]

Wait times were almost always better than things at the MK too which meant splitting time over there as passholders was always a connvenient way to break up the day

Epcot was also really the first monster people eater at such scale. Outside communicore, every future world attraction was a monster people eater. It has open space nearly in every direction. Distance paced out crowds. Everything show wise was continuous… huge preshows like at UoE broke things up… even 30min plus waits were basically always moving lines. And the ws attractions why bot nearly as interesting, where also pretty high turnover shows.

This era was really where disney was mastering how to make long waits managable- and it really reduced the angst over waits.

I will say I don't recall them (Disney with EPCOT Center) having any notable opening struggles with opperations or attraction uptimes

They did… imagination and AA in particular. Whole rides didn’t open with the park. But they made improvements and settled it down with about 6months.

People were confused a bit by epcot and it’s style… but i think you are focused a bit too much on individual preferences vs what transpired as a whole. People wanted familiar disney… and the toddler crowd where definitely more left out verse the MK.

 

[MrPromey]

They did… imagination and AA in particular. Whole rides didn’t open with the park. But they made improvements and settled it down with about 6months.

Makes sense I wouldn't have remembered that because I probably wouldn't have been aware of it.

People were confused a bit by epcot and it’s style… but i think you are focused a bit too much on individual preferences vs what transpired as a whole. People wanted familiar disney… and the toddler crowd where definitely more left out verse the MK.

I mean, as a kid, Future World was my favorite part of either park.

My family was definitely confused by it. I don't know at what point it became an all day park for us (maybe somewhere between Horizons and Living Seas) but as people who went to MK numerous times a year, it wasn't in the first couple years.

I feel like we're kind of saying the same thing so maybe I'm just doing a bad job of articulating myself, here.

 

[MisterPenguin]