Universal Epic Universe (South Expansion Complex) - Now Open!

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
I’m not looking at any photos, in pure commentary only mode. But I assume you are referencing Connections rather than Docking Bay 7 or the Pandora Cantina? But I guess those are also supposed to be cafeteria’s.

I'm thinking of the "rose room" in Be Our Guest and others that are supposed to be more than a cafeteria in setting, but suffer from being big, boxy high ceiling rooms, with no changes in elevation and framed paintings on the wall for decor.
 

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry... are we looking at the same place? I ate there last week and the environment is one of the best quick service locations in Orlando for atmosphere. I eat QSR and TSR throughout the Orlando parks on a weekly basis and Das Stakehaus is a top contender.

From the video I saw, it wasn't what I was hoping for. It has nice fixtures and features (the aforementioned chairs), but I thought it there would be more to it based on the concept art, which looks to be used as one of the paintings on the wall?

I watched the video again, I think the ordering area is more atmospheric than the dining rooms thanks to the lighting. Is the idea you're in the catacombs under Darkmoor? Is this the village tavern? Having flat floors* with no elevation changes and neatly squared rooms doesn't sell the idea as much, despite the faux stone arches and walls. The dining rooms are also not so varied in appearance either.

It's the difference between having a restaurant that's themed and having a themed space that functions as a restaurant. Take out the tables and chairs in the Crystal Palace and it's still a Victorian conservatory and exhibition hall. Take out the tables and chairs in the West Wing at Be Our Guest and it looks like a big empty room with a staged scene on one side.

This is all to say Das Steakhouse isn't terrible, just not as good as it could have been.

*Think of how the rooms at Liberty Tree Tavern are separated by steps, or how Cinderella's Royal Table is actually a tiered dining room that's lower in the center portion. Having the whole restaurant be level is easier for staff and guests to navigate but adds to the flatness (for lack of a better word) and it doesn't help to create the illusion that this is an old, lived in or repurposed space
 
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eddie104

Well-Known Member
From the video I saw, it wasn't what I was hoping for. It has nice fixtures and features (the aforementioned chairs), but I thought it there would be more to it based on the concept art, which looks to be used as one of the paintings on the wall?

I watched the video again, I think the ordering area is more atmospheric than the dining rooms thanks to the lighting. Is the idea you're in the catacombs under Darkmoor? Is this the village tavern? Having flat floors* with no elevation changes and neatly squared rooms doesn't sell the idea as much, despite the faux stone arches and walls. The dining rooms are also not so varied in appearance either.

It's the difference between having a restaurant that's themed and having a themed space that functions as a restaurant. Take out the tables and chairs in the Crystal Palace and it's still a Victorian conservatory and exhibition hall. Take out the tables and chairs in the West Wing at Be Our Guest and it looks like a big empty room with a staged scene on one side.

This is all to say Das Steakhouse isn't terrible, just not as good as it could have been.

*Think of how the rooms at Liberty Tree Tavern are separated by steps, or how Cinderella's Royal Table is actually a tiered dining room that's lower in the center portion. Having the whole restaurant be level is easier for staff and guests to navigate but adds to the flatness (for lack of a better word) and it doesn't help to create the illusion that this is an old, lived in or repurposed space
Seriously you haven’t been in person so judging from a video is not the way to do it.
 

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
-DAK opened in 1998 and Kali River Rapids opened in 1999 (I believe it was actually advertised as coming soon on the DAK opening season maps)

Yes, with construction vehicles drawn on the park map!

1744080545335.png
 

mkt

When a paradise is lost go straight to Disney™
Premium Member
You didn’t read my post. Canonically floos aren’t a mass transportation system. The masses take them, but not all at once like Cosmic’s pre show. When it comes to WWoHP, explaining that you’re taking a floo with 100 people isn’t what JK is going to sign off on.

Universal doesn’t drop a couple hundred million on a Wizarding World attraction without full licensing in place.
WB controls the film universe. JKR still has creative approval over anything under the Wizarding World brand.

Beyond a shadow of a doubt, WB and JKR's people were involved at every step. Universal could not move forward from one step to the next without their approval.

So if it’s built (it is, I’ve been there),
and it’s operational (it is, I’ve ridden it),
then it was approved by WB and JKR.

And since they’re the ones who control the Wizarding World, the second they approved it, it became canon.
Simple as that. It is canon.
 

ednamodedarling

Well-Known Member
Personally I would like them to keep it at just the four portals and flesh them out more. Add an additional Harry Potter Attraction, Dragon Dark Ride or Simulator, Creature from the black lagoon for DU & Luigi's Mansion for SNW.

If they opt to add two portals ... my guess is Zelda & Wicked. Lord of the Rings for IOA.

I understand that Wicked provides the opportunity for a stage show at IOA ... but I think not having a more female centric portal at Epic could be a mistake in the long haul. Though one could make the same case for IOA.

Also LOTR, Zelda & Dragon feel a bit cut from the same cloth? No? lol.

But again, whats left for IOA & USF if all the new shiny things continue to be placed at Epic? Which brings me back to keeping it at four portals and spreading the wealth elsewhere.
 

UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
Universal doesn’t drop a couple hundred million on a Wizarding World attraction without full licensing in place.
WB controls the film universe. JKR still has creative approval over anything under the Wizarding World brand.

Beyond a shadow of a doubt, WB and JKR's people were involved at every step. Universal could not move forward from one step to the next without their approval.

So if it’s built (it is, I’ve been there),
and it’s operational (it is, I’ve ridden it),
then it was approved by WB and JKR.

And since they’re the ones who control the Wizarding World, the second they approved it, it became canon.
Simple as that. It is canon.

I think you either misread the post you're quoting or missed the context.

The suggestion he's referencing was not built and isn't there.

EDIT: Or you quoted the wrong person.
 

rd805

Well-Known Member
I'm thinking of the "rose room" in Be Our Guest and others that are supposed to be more than a cafeteria in setting, but suffer from being big, boxy high ceiling rooms, with no changes in elevation and framed paintings on the wall for decor.
Sound is my biggest issue in that room -- it just reverberates so loudly that it makes for super cafeteria style feeling.
 

mkt

When a paradise is lost go straight to Disney™
Premium Member
I think you either misread the post you're quoting or missed the context.

The suggestion he's referencing was not built and isn't there.

EDIT: Or you quoted the wrong person.

"explaining that you’re taking a floo with 100 people isn’t what JK is going to sign off on."
 

Andrew25

Well-Known Member
These seem like solid numbers and match well with what I have. Nice work. A couple of notes that might be helpful to you:

Fyre Drill cycle time is around 5:30 and they're planning on eight boats. I had 524 to 698 as the capacity range pending more data. Load/unload is going to be critical there.

I asked an IE about Dragon Racer's Rally, because 360/hour is more like a water park slide capacity than a theme park ride. They said they can vary the run time of the ride down to 60 seconds if needed. (I timed it consistently at 1:45 on my visits.) The unload/load time for that, though, was averaging 2:15 when I was there. They really, really need to get that down to 60-ish seconds.

Circus Arcanus capacity is 550, I believe, with a 23-minute runtime. Management wants up to 28 shows per day at an average of around 480 guests per show. I think that's almost impossible. I think they're at 16-20 shows now. So maybe 20 to 24 if everything works out. (The show is fantastic. Really liked it a lot.)

My estimates for Mine Kart are more pessimistic than yours. I'm thinking 930 to 1070 per hour. That's based on a 40-second load/unload and a 60-second load/unload. That's the range I observed over 40 minutes of watching.

I know a lot of this is still them trying to work through stuff. A lot is riding on that.
Thanks for the feedback! I agree with your take on Mine Cart.... it's going to be rough capacity wise. Ideally they can run 10-sec intervals, but the quickest we've seen them is at 12-secs if operating well. It's also pretty easy for this one to cascade.

Been saying it for a few years, but some of the choices like Racer Rally's is questionable for a large theme park of UOR's size.

FWIW, here's an old Disney document showing the % of people in various parts of the park at any given time. Useful for calculating max capacities.

View attachment 852243

The doc is part of the Buzz Price Archives at UCF, so it's public. Enjoy.
Thank you for this!
 

Absimilliard

Well-Known Member
Disney spent a lot of money on Euro Disneyland, but the team behind it knew how to make the most of their money

They budgeted for a roof over Main Street. We ended up with arcades because that was actually cheaper and the extra money was spent on making the shops themselves nicer.

They budgeted for a castle as big as the one in Florida, but realized a smaller one would give more money for the inside.

Not needing to have a motor and CM in every boat meant Storybookland could have an actual scene inside the cave.

It's knowing how to maximize the potential of a budget, which WDI and Universal Creative now seem to struggle with. They blow a lot of money on frills, and forget the big picture stuff like sightlines, staging and capacity.

After reading the accounts from the french side of Euro Disneyland, I strongly disagree with your assessment. I read Hop!, the book written by Philippe Bourguignon, the man who saved the resort, along with Disney et la France from Sébastien Roffat and it changed my perception on the subject. I view it as Walt Disney Imagineering spent like crazy and delivered too little at the end for the massive budget, leaving management with a resort that could not make money even if it hit capacity during peak periods.

Philippe Bourguignon came from the Accor hotel group and was originally hired to open and run the hotel side of Euro Disneyland. What happened in reality is that as the challenges piled on, Robert Fitzpatrick who was the company's CEO, was unable to deal with them and Philippe Bourguignon became the defacto leader of the resort. After a rough summer where the resort was forecasted to receive 9 millions guests, Mr. Bourguignon locked himself at home with the books and the analysis was shocking. The resort was on paper capable of receiving 12 million guests a year, but in practice, given vacations, slow period and winter, they got 9 million guests. In order to be profitable, the park needed 14 million guests anually. There were too many hotel rooms, prices were too high, the food was too bad, the park didn't have enough to do, etc.

To further the issues, even with the equivalent of 4 billion dollars USD to build the resort then, WDI only delivered a park capable of receiving 50000 guests at once. Bourguignon's calculations were that given the cost overruns and massive debts, he needed capacity for 60000 guests. He confronted Eisner with his findings, who was quite shocked, but nevertheless, authorized an extra 80 million USD budget to be rushed for a 1993-1994 capacity expansion. The goal here was not quality, but to give guests extra things to do. This is what lead to the creation of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Peril, Storybookland Canals and Casey Jr, the Old Mill ferris wheel and all those walkthroughs that now make the park quite fun to visit as they never have a line and are nice visually.

Temple du Peril was rushed, as I estimate there were less than a year between green lighting a new roller coaster and the actual grand opening. The old "Spark Gap Coaster" concept for Tomorrowland was turned into an indian temple in Adventureland and Intamin quickly adapted the old Pinfari TL-59 coaster layout to boost capacity and be more comfortable.

Spark Gap Coaster DLP concept art.jpg


Spark Gap Coaster

img_8548-image(2000x1124-crop-autorotate).jpeg


Pinfari TL-59 coaster, which was the original layout concept for Temple Du Peril. Temple du Peril initally was not without its challenges, as it opened with a poor (for then!) 1000-1200 riders per hour capacity. It opened with 8 passenger trains and while it achieved its original goal of relieving demand from Big Thunder Mountain, lines remained massive for it. It was meant to be temporary, with the intention that as soon as the financial situation allowed, the ride would be removed and replaced by the planned Indiana Jones EMV and Coaster complex.

The Storybookland Canal ride system was off the shelf, purchased from Mack Rides. Tow Boat rides are popular in Europe, with Efteling having two, Parc Asterix one and so on. Casey Jr. was an off Vekoma prototype powered coaster that was never sold to any other parks after.

Philippe Bourguignon was named CEO of Euro Disney in early 1993 and Steve Burke as his number 2. They went to work on pricing, menu improvements and reducing costs. One good example from the Hop! book was the burger situation. The original hamburgers served at the resort were unpopular, as they were massive "lean burgers" that appealed to the taste of american managements. In practive, the average guests at Euro Disneyland found them dry and tasteless. Every burger across the resort was tasted by the new CEO and the recipes were changed to appeal to guests. End result? Spend some money changing suppliers and contracts and a much more popular food item that became profitable. The duo also transformed the park's restaurants, converting the Cafe des Visionnaires on the hub to an arcade and turning the Explorer's Club sitdown restaurant into a quick service pizza place.

I didn't mention Space Mountain: that project opened only by the sheer will and creative thinking of Philippe Bourguignon. A space was left in Discoveryland for the ride, but the original massive indoor area with the freefall, restaurant, roller coaster and other things was realistic financially. Philippe Bourguignon instructed his team along with a specific team of imagineers to discreetly design a new version of Discovery Mountain. Michael Eisner, the upper management team of Disney in California, along with the banks were not to made aware that they were designing the attraction. One interesting tidbit I remember reading about this was to cover the initial payment to Vekoma for design and fabrication start, it was passed off as a "Big Thunder Mountain emergency repair". It was only when construction was sufficiently far along to not be stopped, paid by the petty cash the resort had on hand, that Bourguignon went up to Eisner and asked him for the ride's budget to finish construction and open it. Eisner was understandably mad, as he felt they had already paid enough for the resort already. He still had no choice but to provide the money and Euro Disney finished building the ride.

Space Mountain: De la Terre a La Lune as it opened as, is to me the most important Disney attraction ever. It was one of the two thing that saved the resort from bankrupcy. It brought millions of new guests, increased revenues and more importantly: made the resort profitable from 1995 to 2001.

What's the other thing that saved the resort from bankrupcy? Bourguignon and his team finding a rich investor, Kingdom Holding Company. Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal from Saudi Arabia was persuaded to invest in the company by reinjecting funds and become one of the largest shareholder of EuroDisney SCA. Even after Euro Disney SCA was taken over by the Walt Disney Company in 2017, the only non Disney shareholder to remain was Kingdom Holding.

To conclude, the situation in Paris was a lot more complicated than it appears and it wasn't the Walt Disney Company that found the solutions to save the resort after it opened.
 

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