Rumor Higher Speed Rail from MCO to Disney World

[lazyboy97o]

However, DME had benefits for Disney that a train station shuttle service would not -- I'm just not seeing any good reason for Disney to provide that.

Brightline paying them to offer it would be a pretty good reason. One of the things that came out of the new route proposal was Universal and other Convention Center area businesses committing to providing last mile service. It’s hard to believe that Brightline knew it would be an issue at the Convention Center but still hasn’t thought about the Disney station.

 

[Twirlnhurl]

It is also important to remember that last mile service already exists from Disney Springs for most of the day (excluding luggage). Luggage is a real problem, but by no means is it an insurmountable (or even expensive) one.

 

[UNCgolf]

Brightline paying them to offer it would be a pretty good reason. One of the things that came out of the new route proposal was Universal and other Convention Center area businesses committing to providing last mile service. It’s hard to believe that Brightline knew it would be an issue at the Convention Center but still hasn’t thought about the Disney station.

Oh absolutely. I was only talking about Disney deciding to just offer it on their own; there'd be no real reason for them to do so.

If they're getting paid to do it, that's a completely different scenario.

 

[bpiper]

From the Orlando Sentinel: https://www.orlandosentinel.com/new...0220601-jxladqanirdcpij3eobgu53iiu-story.html

SunRail, Brightline and Central Florida have landed a small but vital federal grant for early environmental, construction and cost studies needed to install rail service from east of Orlando’s airport to the International Drive and theme park district and on to Tampa.

Receiving bipartisan congressional support, the grant of up to $15,875,000 will be matched with an equal amount by Brightline to evolve a concrete plan for Orlando-to-Tampa rail. That plan will be the basis for seeking grants for hundreds of millions of dollars in additional federal money.

“The federal government providing the grant is a good indicator that they like our project,” said Orange County Mayor Jerry Demings. “The grant will help us determine the details to submit applications for grants later this year, including routes, stops, costs, ridership, environment and economic impacts.”

The heart of the initiative is the Sunshine Corridor, which refers conceptually to a span of tracks from east of Orlando International Airport to the south International Drive and Walt Disney World area.

“The Sunshine Corridor is a comprehensive, ambitious transportation solution for Central Florida,” said Brightline’s chief executive officer, Michael Reininger. “It represents the missing link in Brightline’s plan to connect Orlando and Tampa.”

Brightline's chief executive officer, Michael Reininger, describes the Sunshine Corridor as a key link in his company's quest to set up service from Orlando to Tampa. Photo taken Sept. 28, 2021 at a California presentation. (Kevin Spear)

The east-west Sunshine Corridor envisions that tracks in Central Florida would be owned and operated by a government entity supporting the SunRail commuter train system. Brightline would then lease usage of the Central Florida tracks as part of its extension from Orlando to Tampa.

That cooperative arrangement would make local government and the private rail company connected at the hip in seeking grants for extending track from Orlando to Tampa.

What the privately owned Brightline brings to the Sunshine Corridor is its own capital to cover significant portions of matching amounts required for federal grants.

The region’s existing SunRail commuter train system runs north and south from Volusia through Seminole and Orange to Osceola counties.

Though long anticipated, the system did not have a plan, funding or even a proposal to connect its main line to Orlando’s airport – until Brightline began its push to connect the airport to a Tampa station and intersect SunRail tracks along the way.

“Innovative transportation solutions will provide an economic boost to Central Florida,” Reininger said.

Brightline has invested several billion dollars in tracks and stations between Miami, Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach, and, in the final stages of construction, from that South Florida segment to Orlando International Airport.

The stretch from South to Central Florida is to be completed this year and opened for passenger traffic next year.

The $15.8 million “Consolidated Rail Infrastructure and Safety Improvements,” or CRISI grant from the U.S. Department of Transportation was announced by U.S. representatives Darren Soto, Stephanie Murphy and Val Demings, Democrats from Central Florida, and Republicans Dan Webster of Central Florida and Gus Bilirakis of the Tampa Bay area.

“Thrilled to see that Brightline’s proposed Tampa to Orlando intercity passenger rail project will receive funding thanks to the Department of Transportation’s CRISI grant,” said Soto in a statement.

Webster said that as a senior member of the House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure “ensuring our state has the resources needed is one of my priorities.”

A month ago, local governments backing SunRail, Brightline and Universal Orlando announced a preliminary agreement to work as partners toward the Sunshine Corridor.

That appeared to resolve a dispute involving Brightline’s preference for a different corridor, which it would pay for with private funds, that did not include the International Drive area but would stop at Walt Disney World.

As part of the Sunshine Corridor, Universal and other International Drive would commit to $125 million for track and station costs, 13 acres to build a station, guarantees of $13 million for annual ticket sales and $2 million annually for maintenance.

While federal grants, thanks to the $1.2 trillion infrastructure bill passed last year, could make it possible to build rail service along the Sunshine Corridor and to Tampa, ongoing operational costs will remain a challenge.

Demings is championing a penny increase in sales tax, which voters will decide in November, to generate hundreds of millions of dollars annually for public bus, rail and other transportation needs, setting up the nucleus of a Central Florida network able to support population growth for decades.

He said he visited federal transportation and White House officials in Washington, D.C., recently.

“One of the things they said was that in order for us to compete effectively with other geographical regions around the country, having a dedicated funding source would be essential to receiving federal infrastructure grant dollars,” Demings said.

 

[lazyboy97o]

East of Orlando International Airport? Is this just because they plan to utilize part of OUC’s existing right of way that extends East to Stanton Energy Plant or because they’re actually looking at SunRail going east of the airport? Sending SunRail out to at least Lake Nona would probably make some sense.

 

[bpiper]

East of Orlando International Airport? Is this just because they plan to utilize part of OUC’s existing right of way that extends East to Stanton Energy Plant or because they’re actually looking at SunRail going east of the airport? Sending SunRail out to at least Lake Nona would probably make some sense.

I think the reporter was generalizing. I think they mean to study what would it take to get the rail service that's coming from east of MCO (that's currently under construction) and send it into the International drive area.

 

[bpiper]

Looking at the previous article about this partnership, it looks like the annual $2M maintenance commitment is new.

$30M for the study seems excessive, but I suspect since they have tight deadlines for federal funding submissions, they are probably paying a lot of overtime to the engineering company.

 

[bpiper]

This is/was a proposed layout to get to International drive and onto Disney that I mocked up.

 

[Twirlnhurl]

I feel like making the Brightline connection between MCO and I-4 contingent on SunRail:
1. getting a dedicated funding source
2. building the tracks and owning them between MCO and I-4
3. leasing the tracks to Brightline
reduces the odds that this comes to fruition significantly.

Will I vote for a penny sales tax for transportation this November? Sure. But similar initiatives have failed multiple times in Tampa. I think Orange County's politics aren't that different from Hillsborough County's.

In my mind, the odds of a passenger rail connection between MCO and Disney being built by 2032 went from around 40% to around 10%. And the odds of a passenger rail connection making it to Tampa by 2042 went from 20% to 5%.

I'm rooting for the project. But I think it is a long shot now.

 

[DisneyCane]

I feel like making the Brightline connection between MCO and I-4 contingent on SunRail:
1. getting a dedicated funding source
2. building the tracks and owning them between MCO and I-4
3. leasing the tracks to Brightline
reduces the odds that this comes to fruition significantly.

Will I vote for a penny sales tax for transportation this November? Sure. But similar initiatives have failed multiple times in Tampa. I think Orange County's politics aren't that different from Hillsborough County's.

In my mind, the odds of a passenger rail connection between MCO and Disney being built by 2032 went from around 40% to around 10%. And the odds of a passenger rail connection making it to Tampa by 2042 went from 20% to 5%.

I'm rooting for the project. But I think it is a long shot now.

A penny sales tax is great marketing but it isn't a penny. It's 1% added to the local sales tax.

Years ago, Broward voted a "penny" transportation tax (I did not). Traffic congestion has either stayed the same or gotten worse since it was implemented, I pay 1% more for everything I purchase and we get very useful projects like spending $10 million dollars on a crosswalk to allow the 17 pedestrians per day on the "greenway" north of I-595 to have more direct crossing of Flamingo Rd.

 

[Twirlnhurl]

Years ago, Broward voted a "penny" transportation tax (I did not). Traffic congestion has either stayed the same or gotten worse since it was implemented

The only way to solve gongestion is to reduce demand below capacity at peak times. Today, Buffalo, NY rarely has traffic congestion because it's road network was built in the 1960s when the population of the metro area was larger by more than 200,000 people. So, highways that used to me barely adequate for their demand have more than enough capacity to handle even the most marginal vehicular trip.

Over the last ten years, the population of Broward County has increased by 200,000. So, it is not surprising that congestion is worse.

The proceeds from the penny sales tax in Broward probably pays for a mix of useful and useless projects, just like the one in Orange County (if it passes).

The population of Orange County FL increased by almost 300,000 people in the last ten years. So regardless of whether or not the tax is passed, congestion will be worse.

There are two ways to reduce congestion:
1. Increase capacity. This is is more expensive the more you do it. When widening a road past a certain point, you have to start taking down buildings or build double deck roads. Going from two to four lanes is usually much cheaper than going from four to six, or six to eight.
2. Reduce demand this can be done a bunch of ways. The most effective is economic ruin, as exemplified by Buffalo's decline. But this is obviously something no one would do on purpose. You can also reduce demand by increasing costs. On a micro level, you can see this on the variable-price tolls on 95 Express lanes in South Florida or the I-4 Express lanes in Orlando. On a grand scale, congestion charges are applied to large areas of Singapore and London, and has been proposed off and on for Manhattan. It works great in places where the urban fabric make other modes like transit attractive. Outside of express lanes in Florida, I wouldn't expect congestion charges to help much, since everything is so low density and disconnected in FL.

But a penny sales tax on exery dollar spent can raise a ton of money, and some of that will be spent on useful things, even though their impacts on congestion will probably be exaggerated.

 

[JoeCamel]

The only way to solve gongestion is to reduce demand below capacity at peak times. Today, Buffalo, NY rarely has traffic congestion because it's road network was built in the 1960s when the population of the metro area was larger by more than 200,000 people. So, highways that used to me barely adequate for their demand have more than enough capacity to handle even the most marginal vehicular trip.

Over the last ten years, the population of Broward County has increased by 200,000. So, it is not surprising that congestion is worse.

The proceeds from the penny sales tax in Broward probably pays for a mix of useful and useless projects, just like the one in Orange County (if it passes).

The population of Orange County FL increased by almost 300,000 people in the last ten years. So regardless of whether or not the tax is passed, congestion will be worse.

There are two ways to reduce congestion:
1. Increase capacity. This is is more expensive the more you do it. When widening a road past a certain point, you have to start taking down buildings or build double deck roads. Going from two to four lanes is usually much cheaper than going from four to six, or six to eight.
2. Reduce demand this can be done a bunch of ways. The most effective is economic ruin, as exemplified by Buffalo's decline. But this is obviously something no one would do on purpose. You can also reduce demand by increasing costs. On a micro level, you can see this on the variable-price tolls on 95 Express lanes in South Florida or the I-4 Express lanes in Orlando. On a grand scale, congestion charges are applied to large areas of Singapore and London, and has been proposed off and on for Manhattan. It works great in places where the urban fabric make other modes like transit attractive. Outside of express lanes in Florida, I wouldn't expect congestion charges to help much, since everything is so low density and disconnected in FL.

But a penny sales tax on exery dollar spent can raise a ton of money, and some of that will be spent on useful things, even though their impacts on congestion will probably be exaggerated.

Sounds like Chapek's playbook

 

[DisneyCane]

The only way to solve gongestion is to reduce demand below capacity at peak times. Today, Buffalo, NY rarely has traffic congestion because it's road network was built in the 1960s when the population of the metro area was larger by more than 200,000 people. So, highways that used to me barely adequate for their demand have more than enough capacity to handle even the most marginal vehicular trip.

Over the last ten years, the population of Broward County has increased by 200,000. So, it is not surprising that congestion is worse.

The proceeds from the penny sales tax in Broward probably pays for a mix of useful and useless projects, just like the one in Orange County (if it passes).

The population of Orange County FL increased by almost 300,000 people in the last ten years. So regardless of whether or not the tax is passed, congestion will be worse.

There are two ways to reduce congestion:
1. Increase capacity. This is is more expensive the more you do it. When widening a road past a certain point, you have to start taking down buildings or build double deck roads. Going from two to four lanes is usually much cheaper than going from four to six, or six to eight.
2. Reduce demand this can be done a bunch of ways. The most effective is economic ruin, as exemplified by Buffalo's decline. But this is obviously something no one would do on purpose. You can also reduce demand by increasing costs. On a micro level, you can see this on the variable-price tolls on 95 Express lanes in South Florida or the I-4 Express lanes in Orlando. On a grand scale, congestion charges are applied to large areas of Singapore and London, and has been proposed off and on for Manhattan. It works great in places where the urban fabric make other modes like transit attractive. Outside of express lanes in Florida, I wouldn't expect congestion charges to help much, since everything is so low density and disconnected in FL.

But a penny sales tax on exery dollar spent can raise a ton of money, and some of that will be spent on useful things, even though their impacts on congestion will probably be exaggerated.

Nothing you stated is incorrect. However, when marketing the "penny tax" the county government sold it as a way to reduce traffic congestion. It is dishonest to say it will because of the reasons you stated

It would take extremely expensive road widening combined with overpasses and frontage roads to eliminate signal controlled intersections. All things that are far too expensive to be funded by a "penny tax."

 

[bhg469]

The only way to solve gongestion is to reduce demand below capacity at peak times. Today, Buffalo, NY rarely has traffic congestion because it's road network was built in the 1960s when the population of the metro area was larger by more than 200,000 people. So, highways that used to me barely adequate for their demand have more than enough capacity to handle even the most marginal vehicular trip.

Over the last ten years, the population of Broward County has increased by 200,000. So, it is not surprising that congestion is worse.

The proceeds from the penny sales tax in Broward probably pays for a mix of useful and useless projects, just like the one in Orange County (if it passes).

The population of Orange County FL increased by almost 300,000 people in the last ten years. So regardless of whether or not the tax is passed, congestion will be worse.

There are two ways to reduce congestion:
1. Increase capacity. This is is more expensive the more you do it. When widening a road past a certain point, you have to start taking down buildings or build double deck roads. Going from two to four lanes is usually much cheaper than going from four to six, or six to eight.
2. Reduce demand this can be done a bunch of ways. The most effective is economic ruin, as exemplified by Buffalo's decline. But this is obviously something no one would do on purpose. You can also reduce demand by increasing costs. On a micro level, you can see this on the variable-price tolls on 95 Express lanes in South Florida or the I-4 Express lanes in Orlando. On a grand scale, congestion charges are applied to large areas of Singapore and London, and has been proposed off and on for Manhattan. It works great in places where the urban fabric make other modes like transit attractive. Outside of express lanes in Florida, I wouldn't expect congestion charges to help much, since everything is so low density and disconnected in FL.

But a penny sales tax on exery dollar spent can raise a ton of money, and some of that will be spent on useful things, even though their impacts on congestion will probably be exaggerated.

I contributed to the less traffic in buffalo! You're welcome!

 

[Lilofan]

The only way to solve gongestion is to reduce demand below capacity at peak times. Today, Buffalo, NY rarely has traffic congestion because it's road network was built in the 1960s when the population of the metro area was larger by more than 200,000 people. So, highways that used to me barely adequate for their demand have more than enough capacity to handle even the most marginal vehicular trip.

Over the last ten years, the population of Broward County has increased by 200,000. So, it is not surprising that congestion is worse.

The proceeds from the penny sales tax in Broward probably pays for a mix of useful and useless projects, just like the one in Orange County (if it passes).

The population of Orange County FL increased by almost 300,000 people in the last ten years. So regardless of whether or not the tax is passed, congestion will be worse.

There are two ways to reduce congestion:
1. Increase capacity. This is is more expensive the more you do it. When widening a road past a certain point, you have to start taking down buildings or build double deck roads. Going from two to four lanes is usually much cheaper than going from four to six, or six to eight.
2. Reduce demand this can be done a bunch of ways. The most effective is economic ruin, as exemplified by Buffalo's decline. But this is obviously something no one would do on purpose. You can also reduce demand by increasing costs. On a micro level, you can see this on the variable-price tolls on 95 Express lanes in South Florida or the I-4 Express lanes in Orlando. On a grand scale, congestion charges are applied to large areas of Singapore and London, and has been proposed off and on for Manhattan. It works great in places where the urban fabric make other modes like transit attractive. Outside of express lanes in Florida, I wouldn't expect congestion charges to help much, since everything is so low density and disconnected in FL.

But a penny sales tax on exery dollar spent can raise a ton of money, and some of that will be spent on useful things, even though their impacts on congestion will probably be exaggerated.

Buffalo decline maybe weather related? Northerners flock to move down South so who's exactly moving to cold and wintry Buffalo?

 

[lazyboy97o]

Nothing you stated is incorrect. However, when marketing the "penny tax" the county government sold it as a way to reduce traffic congestion. It is dishonest to say it will because of the reasons you stated

It would take extremely expensive road widening combined with overpasses and frontage roads to eliminate signal controlled intersections. All things that are far too expensive to be funded by a "penny tax."

You demonstrate part of the problem. The things people think would reduce congestion often do not. Road widening is almost never the answer. Transportation taxes also don’t cover the bigger issues related to zoning and development that cause congestion.

 

[bhg469]

Buffalo decline maybe weather related? Northerners flock to move down South so who's exactly moving to cold and wintry Buffalo?

No one in their right mind would want to move there from anywhere nice. The state in itself is reason enough to leave. Having said that, if I was forced to live in NY, Buffalo is a pretty great city to live in. If you need to visit a big city, Toronto is only an hour away.

 

[Lilofan]

No one in their right mind would want to move there from anywhere nice. The state in itself is reason enough to leave. Having said that, if I was forced to live in NY, Buffalo is a pretty great city to live in. If you need to visit a big city, Toronto is only an hour away.

Visited Toronto in summer and they have great and tasty ethnic cuisine. Few things I know about Buffalo is known for their chicken wings?

 

[DisneyCane]

You demonstrate part of the problem. The things people think would reduce congestion often do not. Road widening is almost never the answer. Transportation taxes also don’t cover the bigger issues related to zoning and development that cause congestion.

That's because they don't widen the roads enough. Each added lane adds capacity. I'm talking about local roads, not highways. On highways, people merging on and getting off cause a lot of the congestion. Especially when the off ramps back up because the roads that they are connecting to can't handle the number of vehicles. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that a huge percentage of drivers don't know how to merge smoothly.

 

[Twirlnhurl]

Buffalo has lots of good stuff going for it:

It is where Buffalo wings were invented. It has absolutely beautiful weather in summer and fall. The environment has lots of natural beauty and there are some wonderful state parks nearby. It is a great town for winter sports (although the Buffalo Sabres are always terrible). Housing is inexpensive. Traffic is light. Many places in Buffalo with views to the north can sometimes see the mists from Niagara Falls. There are a couple good universities there. There is great architecture and good museums.

In summary: the Brightline connection between MCO and WDW will likely have a stop at the Convention Center and be paid for by taxpayers.