Rumor Higher Speed Rail from MCO to Disney World

[maxairmike]

That's because they don't widen the roads enough. Each added lane adds capacity. I'm talking about local roads, not highways. On highways, people merging on and getting off cause a lot of the congestion. Especially when the off ramps back up because the roads that they are connecting to can't handle the number of vehicles. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that a huge percentage of drivers don't know how to merge smoothly.

Widening local roads can have the same induced demand issue as highways. Widening 192 to 4 lanes each way would probably help for a month or two before people change their travel routes to fill it back to capacity. You could increase Old Lake Wilson to a 4 lane road and the daily backup would likely still reach back to at least the Reunion bridge. It’s not a problem unique to limited access highways. You would have to massively overbuild a road and then see a lot less development than planned for more lanes to be “helpful” (see I-Drive South, aka World Gateway/Xentury City).

 

[lazyboy97o]

That's because they don't widen the roads enough. Each added lane adds capacity. I'm talking about local roads, not highways. On highways, people merging on and getting off cause a lot of the congestion. Especially when the off ramps back up because the roads that they are connecting to can't handle the number of vehicles. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that a huge percentage of drivers don't know how to merge smoothly.

Just widening roads won’t work, especially when you maintain typical American development patterns of dead-end development that funnels people to the same few local roads. The key to reducing congestion is alternates: alternate destinations, alternate routes and alternate means. Widening roads doesn’t do any of that.

 

[bhg469]

Visited Toronto in summer and they have great and tasty ethnic cuisine. Few things I know about Buffalo is known for their chicken wings?

There is a bit more to the city than chicken wings, tons of different influences too, just much smaller than TO. Lots of very cool architecture if you're into that. Some neat old museums. Niagara falls too although the Canadian side is better.

 

[bhg469]

Buffalo has lots of good stuff going for it:

It is where Buffalo wings were invented. It has absolutely beautiful weather in summer and fall. The environment has lots of natural beauty and there are some wonderful state parks nearby. It is a great town for winter sports (although the Buffalo Sabres are always terrible). Housing is inexpensive. Traffic is light. Many places in Buffalo with views to the north can sometimes see the mists from Niagara Falls. There are a couple good universities there. There is great architecture and good museums.

In summary: the Brightline connection between MCO and WDW will likely have a stop at the Convention Center and be paid for by taxpayers.

You must not be very old! The sabres have had many amazing seasons. Definitely not lately though!

 

[ctrlaltdel]

Buffalo has lots of good stuff going for it:

It is where Buffalo wings were invented. It has absolutely beautiful weather in summer and fall. The environment has lots of natural beauty and there are some wonderful state parks nearby. It is a great town for winter sports (although the Buffalo Sabres are always terrible). Housing is inexpensive. Traffic is light. Many places in Buffalo with views to the north can sometimes see the mists from Niagara Falls. There are a couple good universities there. There is great architecture and good museums.

In summary: the Brightline connection between MCO and WDW will likely have a stop at the Convention Center and be paid for by taxpayers.

As a WNYer, Buffalo is amazing this time of year. Way better than Florida at this time (though obviously winter is beyond rough). Beautiful city and it's on the rise again. Tons of satellite offices for big tech and biomedical companies opening. Real estate has gotten way more expensive in the past few years but still very reasonable compared to the rest of the state. And yes, traffic is light, easy to get around, but still plenty of amenities you would find in big cities.

 

[Anteater]

Widening local roads can have the same induced demand issue as highways. Widening 192 to 4 lanes each way would probably help for a month or two before people change their travel routes to fill it back to capacity. You could increase Old Lake Wilson to a 4 lane road and the daily backup would likely still reach back to at least the Reunion bridge. It’s not a problem unique to limited access highways. You would have to massively overbuild a road and then see a lot less development than planned for more lanes to be “helpful” (see I-Drive South, aka World Gateway/Xentury City).

Just widening roads won’t work, especially when you maintain typical American development patterns of dead-end development that funnels people to the same few local roads. The key to reducing congestion is alternates: alternate destinations, alternate routes and alternate means. Widening roads doesn’t do any of that.

It's not an either-or situation. You need to widen the roads in a timely manner. But, you also need to provide real alternates; not detours through existing neighborhoods. Government is slow to react to development and does not place the tax burden on the developers. If the developers had to absorb the brunt of road building, they'd think twice about building so far out from existing infrastructure.

 

[DisneyCane]

Widening local roads can have the same induced demand issue as highways. Widening 192 to 4 lanes each way would probably help for a month or two before people change their travel routes to fill it back to capacity. You could increase Old Lake Wilson to a 4 lane road and the daily backup would likely still reach back to at least the Reunion bridge. It’s not a problem unique to limited access highways. You would have to massively overbuild a road and then see a lot less development than planned for more lanes to be “helpful” (see I-Drive South, aka World Gateway/Xentury City).

I know it would be nearly impossible but if you widened 192 AND adding frontage roads and overpasses to get from one side to the other, eliminating all signal controlled intersections then you'd get rid of the congestion. Doing so would be prohibitively expensive and require eminent domain that would eliminate most of the parking lots people are traveling to.

 

[UNCgolf]

Niagara falls too although the Canadian side is better.

It's almost shocking how much nicer the Canadian side is.

It's not just that the views are better from there (although they are) but the overall area quality. The American side is like being at a roadside tourist trap other than when you're actually inside the park. The Niagara River rapids leading up to the falls are neat to see on the American side, though.

 

[Thelazer]

OMG, ^ this...

The Niagara River Recreation Trail

The Niagara River Recreation Trail meanders throug…

www.niagarafallstourism.com

 

[scottb411]

Grew up with my early childhood in Buffalo and moved to Florida as a child and now live in the Orlando area. Great memories as a child growing up in Buffalo. The population decline was due to all of the manufacturing jobs being offshored to China and other countries with cheap labor. All of my extended family all eventually left Buffalo as well but those that have stayed have a lot of pride in the city and it reminds me now a little bit like Green Bay in a good way plus Niagara Falls.

Back to the primary topic, Orlando's main congestion now (post opening of the I-4 express lanes) is traffic going to the theme parks or onto Tampa and Southwest Florida from the Northeast. The proposed 1% sales tax is primarily about funding bus transportation around the city for the hospitality industry for employees that can't afford to live near the attractions. I don't think it is going to pass and those projects should be funded more by the hotel taxes or federal spending.

 

[ctrlaltdel]

It's almost shocking how much nicer the Canadian side is.

It's not just that the views are better from there (although they are) but the overall area quality. The American side is like being at a roadside tourist trap other than when you're actually inside the park. The Niagara River rapids leading up to the falls are neat to see on the American side, though.

Yeah, the state park on the US side is extremely nice. View is much nicer on the Canadian side though. The surrounding area is awful, I'm still perplexed how much the City blew one of the top tourist attractions in the world.

Niagara Falls, Canada is more of what one would expect on the US side, huge hotels, tourist traps galore, Hard Rock Cafe, etc. Though the Canadian area is very rich and the US side is poorer than the median.

 

[Anteater]

The proposed 1% sales tax is primarily about funding bus transportation around the city for the hospitality industry for employees that can't afford to live near the attractions. I don't think it is going to pass and those projects should be funded more by the hotel taxes or federal spending.

IMO, this should be funded by the hotels and theme parks directly. There are plenty of companies that are providing this for their low wage employees. Hotels and Resorts need to step up to the plate on this.

 

[DisneyCane]

Yeah, the state park on the US side is extremely nice. View is much nicer on the Canadian side though. The surrounding area is awful, I'm still perplexed how much the City blew one of the top tourist attractions in the world.

Niagara Falls, Canada is more of what one would expect on the US side, huge hotels, tourist traps galore, Hard Rock Cafe, etc. Though the Canadian area is very rich and the US side is poorer than the median.

The US side would be wealthier if it had been developed as nice as the Canadian side!

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

IMO, this should be funded by the hotels and theme parks directly. There are plenty of companies that are providing this for their low wage employees. Hotels and Resorts need to step up to the plate on this.

By that logic Disney should be taxed for all of the tourists driving on I-4 to get to the theme parks.

 

[Anteater]

By that logic Disney should be taxed for all of the tourists driving on I-4 to get to the theme parks.

Sorry. Not following... We're talking workers, not customers. #2 spend for workers is transportation, just behind rent. For them to find affordable housing, they can't live anywhere near the parks (Disney or Universal). Just taking those two companies into account: Disney handles their workers, Uni handles theirs. Putting a bureaucracy together (likely an expansion of Linx) for busing would be "taxing all the tourists".

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Sorry. Not following... We're talking workers, not customers. #2 spend for workers is transportation, just behind rent. For them to find affordable housing, they can't live anywhere near the parks (Disney or Universal). Just taking those two companies into account: Disney handles their workers, Uni handles theirs. Putting a bureaucracy together (likely an expansion of Linx) for busing would be "taxing all the tourists".

Public transit should be part of any major cities infrastructure. Just like roads, highways etc.

 

[Anteater]

Public transit should be part of any major cities infrastructure. Just like roads, highways etc.

I don't have a problem with that, in theory. Where I have the issue is when employers deliberately under-pay workers and put that burden on the taxpayers. This is what we're seeing in the hospitality sector, not just the theme parks.

Public transit is notorious for not addressing the "last mile" issue. That's a lot of the reason why you don't see people abandoning their cars.

 

[Twirlnhurl]

Yeah, the state park on the US side is extremely nice. View is much nicer on the Canadian side though. The surrounding area is awful, I'm still perplexed how much the City blew one of the top tourist attractions in the world.

Niagara Falls, NY is the way it is because of a rock slide. Basically, it was one of the first places in the world to have utility-grade AC electricity (that is why there is a giant Tesla statue at the Niagara Falls State Park), so it rapidly industrialized. By the early '50s, it was home to all sorts of factories who took advantage of the cheap hydro electricity from Tesla' s first utility-grade power plant. But on June 7, 1956, a rock slide destroyed the whole thing. After that, electricity was expensive, so the wave of plant closures that occurred elsewhere in the Midwest occurred in Niagara Falls in the late 1950s.

Why didn't the city switch to tourism then? A bunch of reasons, including fewer gifts of geography, a desire to court higher paying manufacturing jobs, uncertainty about the future, and a mismatch in workforce. Maybe some other stuff too, I'm hardly an expert on the topic.

Public transit is notorious for not addressing the "last mile" issue. That's a lot of the reason why you don't see people abandoning their cars.

I wouldn't necessarily blame transit for failures of land use regulation. There are few (if any) corridors where transit could be run in greater Orlando where stuff was allowed to be built at densities that can support much transit demand.

Even well planned areas like the neighborhood centers in Horizons West or Baldwin Park aren't really on a corridor that could be strung together to make a reasonable transit service.

But to get back on topic, tourist trip flows are extremely high between MCO and Disney. So even with a small mode share, there is enough demand to justify a service.

 

[lazyboy97o]

But to get back on topic, tourist trip flows are extremely high between MCO and Disney. So even with a small mode share, there is enough demand to justify a service.

This is part of what worries me about this plan. My understanding is the feds don’t like funding tourist oriented transit. The route depending on federal funding and timelines is a risk.

 

[Twirlnhurl]

This is part of what worries me about this plan. My understanding is the feds don’t like funding tourist oriented transit. The route depending on federal funding and timelines is a risk.

I agree that the current routing definitely has a much lower chance of being built than the 417 alignment with private funding. We'll see.