Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[Diamond Dot]

The 1918 Pandemic (which incidentally originated in Kansas) was over in two years, but, led to 50 million deaths. So why is it that we have the vaccines and the information on how to prevent the spread and minimise fatalities and yet, scientists are speculating that we could be dealing with Covid for years, if not decades to come.
I don't understand why people refuse to be vaccinated or wear masks, do they think they are invincible? They didn't have vaccines or wore masks in 1918 and the death count was 10 times it is so far, so take a guess as to how the death toll is so much less this time around, but, also ask why we are nowhere near seeing the end of it yet.

 

[Disney Boater]

Let me know when we’ve restructured our economy to allow for this.

Also “you can’t tell me what to do or what I should or shouldn’t put in my body” has a lot of overlap. Good luck with the people who think it’s their American right to consume American foods at whatever volume they choose. Also remember that one guy believes that exercise is misguided because humans are like batteries with finite power. That’s what you’re up against.

Nice attitude, So just give up, put a mask on and shut up, got it thanks. I can’t believe talking about overall health gets such visceral reactions.

 

[hopemax]

Oh, I forgot to update about indoor mask mandates in my area. My county reinstated them in a vote yesterday. Effective 11/24. Two other Denver Metro counties also voted yesterday for reinstatement. Denver County is voting today. Boulder and another county already had them.

 

[Disney Boater]

Are you also going to support more mass transit, and ending all of the laws, regulations and subsidies that make endless sprawl cheaper and more viable? For changing building codes to implement more sustainable strategies, increase natural ventilation and reduce the use of mechanical air systems?

I’m for personal responsibility to help us get out of this.

 

[Disney Boater]

Those are great for individual impacts. Not perfect solutions, but they would definitely reduce personal risks.

At the population level though, they'll do nothing to slow the spread of COVID. If the entire country was the perfect weight, super fit, only consumed the perfect diet, with no high sugar or high inflammation foods, they would still all get sick eventually. Those perfectly fit people would all continue to spread COVID on to other people. If that's all we did without any vaccination at all, individual impacts might be better on a percentage basis, but the ultimate number that got sick would be so much larger that even the lower percentages of bad outcomes would be a larger absolute number of bad outcomes.

I'm all for individuals doing things to make their personal outcomes better. But, we cannot stop there. We have to do the things that also make the population outcome better. It's nice that they line up. The best thing someone can do to improve their personal outcome is also the best thing they can do to improve the population outcome.

Everything else is doing something that's not the best for each individual, just something better than nothing.

I never said vaccines weren’t important, but so is personal responsibility.

 

[mmascari]

It would keep a lot more people out of the hospital. Anyways, we need to do better in this area moving forward.

Would it?

That was my point. If that was all we did, it likely wouldn't keep more people out of the hospital. If we did that AND vaccinated everyone, then I'll agree that would keep more people out of the hospital.

Pretend that these perfect people are only 25% as likely to need hospitalization (1 in 4 vs 4 today). But, that's all we do, so there's 4 times the number of cases. It's a wash, the same absolute number of people end up in the hospital. Maybe it's not 25%, maybe it's even less. But, is 4 times the cases where we end up with no vaccination or is it more?

If we're doing nothing to stop spread, and living the most personal healthily life alone does nothing to stop spread, then almost everyone gets sick eventually.

Very big numbers and even small percentages get you every time.


On an individual level, if you get COVID, being healthier is clearly a plus.
On an individual level, if you get COVID, having your immune system already knowing how to fend it off is clearly a huge plus.
On an individual level, not getting COVID because spread isn't rampant is an even bigger plus.

 

[hopemax]

Nice attitude, So just give up, put a mask on and shut up, got it thanks. I can’t believe talking about overall health gets such visceral reactions.

That’s not what I was saying. But things don’t happen just because someone like you wants it. The logistics have to happen. Not just pronouncements. So logistically, how do you get what you want to happen?

In a world where other entities are competing for limited time and limited money. Disney wants your money and people say they will eat empty, cheap calories to afford to be able to it. How do you make people choose differently? Others eat cheap to pay for other discretionary things. Others to pay for essential things. Others because they are using food to self-medicate because they don’t have the tools and access to solve it. You want people to exercise, in which extra hour people have? Sleep, work, commute, supervising their kids homework or activity, maintaining their car, home, household?

You think I’m being flip, I am saying changing this is extremely complicated. So you better have a well thought out plan to execute. The giving up would be your choice.

 

[hopemax]

I’m for personal responsibility to help us get out of this.

This is a fallacy that we can achieve this through personal responsibility.

I actually read something about this idea being a negative result of acceptance of germ theory. When people believed disease was caused by miasma they understood that community solutions were needed. With germ theory it shifted the burden to individuals. It has always been finding a balance between community and personal response, but now the pendulum has shifted too far in the other direction and people believe personal responsibility can solve problems that are community driven.

 

[mmascari]

I never said vaccines weren’t important, but so is personal responsibility.

But you did say:

I know everybody seems to hate this take, but I really believe if the American people want to help end the pandemic then they need to get themselves healthy.

Which is what I was responding to. That will do nothing at all to stop spread. Healthy people who are infected with COVID spread it to others just as well as unhealthy people. Possibly more, as an unhealthy person may be forced to not interact with others while a healthy person thinks they just have a normal cold.

The only way to end the pandemic is to get spread under control and reduce the virus's ability to infect more people.

Everything else that doesn't do that is noise. It may help some or specific things, but it will not end the pandemic.

 

[Andrew C]

If we did that AND vaccinated everyone, then I'll agree that would keep more people out of the hospital.

Vaccines and a healthier population moving forward for to assist long term should be the goal. Healthier population should be the goal with or workout Covid. It makes sense.

 

[Disney Boater]

That’s not what I was saying. But things don’t happen just because someone like you wants it. The logistics have to happen. Not just pronouncements. So logistically, how do you get what you want to happen?

In a world where other entities are competing for limited time and limited money. Disney wants your money and people say they will eat empty, cheap calories to afford to be able to it. How do you make people choose differently? Others eat cheap to pay for other discretionary things. Others to pay for essential things. Others because they are using food to self-medicate because they don’t have the tools and access to solve it. You want people to exercise, in which extra hour people have? Sleep, work, commute, supervising their kids homework or activity, maintaining their car, home, household?

You think I’m being flip, I am saying changing this is extremely complicated. So you better have a well thought out plan to execute. The giving up would be your choice.

As someone who has had to make these tough choices to stay alive, I know its hard to not want that cupcake. If we want to pretend like we care about others and ourselves by wearing a piece of cloth over your face, then making some easy changes to your diet is not a big deal. Eat a salad instead of french fries. order a burger without the bun. Skip the potatoes and have the server send more veggies. Don't drink calories. These are small things that can make a big impact, and if enough people do it then the menus would change. The consumers control this.
Exercise? Really it's not that hard. I exercise every day because it helps keep my disease under control. I have 2 kids 5 and 11, I have a very demanding full time job. And who says it takes an hour? You are making excuses for very simple things, think of it like wearing your mask. No big deal, right?

 

[Disney Boater]

But you did say:

Which is what I was responding to. That will do nothing at all to stop spread. Healthy people who are infected with COVID spread it to others just as well as unhealthy people. Possibly more, as an unhealthy person may be forced to not interact with others while a healthy person thinks they just have a normal cold.

The only way to end the pandemic is to get spread under control and reduce the virus's ability to infect more people.

Everything else that doesn't do that is noise. It may help some or specific things, but it will not end the pandemic.

Did I say it would stop the spread? No I didn't. What it would do is make the population as a whole better equipped to handle the virus.
Think of it as part of the Endemic strategy.

 

[hopemax]

As someone who has had to make these tough choices to stay alive, I know its hard to not want that cupcake. If we want to pretend like we care about others and ourselves by wearing a piece of cloth over your face, then making some easy changes to your diet is not a big deal. Eat a salad instead of french fries. order a burger without the bun. Skip the potatoes and have the server send more veggies. Don't drink calories. These are small things that can make a big impact, and if enough people do it then the menus would change. The consumers control this.
Exercise? Really it's not that hard. I exercise every day because it helps keep my disease under control. I have 2 kids 5 and 11, I have a very demanding full time job. And who says it takes an hour? You are making excuses for very simple things, think of it like wearing your mask. No big deal, right?

But you need to convince the people who aren’t even willing to wear the masks.

It’s not what I am willing to do. It’s what they are.

 

[correcaminos]

Vaccines and a healthier population moving forward for to assist long term should be the goal. Healthier population should be the goal with or workout Covid. It makes sense.

You're not wrong. But I think at this point this argument just isn't helpful to covid specific. Especially since healthy people to get and spread covid. Some die or become long haulers.

Today I met someone who is a covid denier. Even went as far to say life saving treatments killed their uncle recently and not covid. Talked so much about how bad the vaccine was for family but when asked how they did with side effects suddenly medical history is not to be shared.

None of that helps and it does hurt the country and honestly globally

 

[Angel Ariel]

I’m for personal responsibility to help us get out of this.

If we’re waiting for personal responsibility to get us out of this, prepare for this to be a thing for the next few years.

 

[mmascari]

Did I say it would stop the spread? No I didn't. What it would do is make the population as a whole better equipped to handle the virus.
Think of it as part of the Endemic strategy.

Yes, you did. You said exactly that.

I know everybody seems to hate this take, but I really believe if the American people want to help end the pandemic then they need to get themselves healthy. Lose weight, exercise, ditch the high sugar, high inflammation foods. I’m all for vaccinating as many people as we can but if the population remains as unhealthy as it is we will never get out of this.

However, this is a true statement, and has been since the very beginning:

The only way to end the pandemic is to get spread under control and reduce the virus's ability to infect more people.

Everything else that doesn't do that is noise. It may help some or specific things, but it will not end the pandemic.

So, the only way to end the pandemic is to get spread under control, and you said the only way end the pandemic was for people to get healthier. That only works if people getting healthier will reduce spread. Since reducing spread is quite literally what ending the pandemic means.


Should people be healthier? Sure, it's a great personal goal. Would I be healthier if I gave up the occasional donut? Probably. But, my having an occasional donut never gave someone else an infectious disease. Not even once. There isn't even any mechanism of crazy one off rare events of chance where my decision to eat a donut or not will impact if I give someone else an infectious disease.

 

[Smooth]

The 1918 Pandemic (which incidentally originated in Kansas) was over in two years, but, led to 50 million deaths. So why is it that we have the vaccines and the information on how to prevent the spread and minimise fatalities and yet, scientists are speculating that we could be dealing with Covid for years, if not decades to come.
I don't understand why people refuse to be vaccinated or wear masks, do they think they are invincible? They didn't have vaccines or wore masks in 1918 and the death count was 10 times it is so far, so take a guess as to how the death toll is so much less this time around, but, also ask why we are nowhere near seeing the end of it yet.

In fact, the influenza strain that causes the Spanish flu has remained with us, becoming the agent responsible for our routine winter illnesses. It is benign, compared to its deadly 1918 form. We are, of course, still susceptible to flu viruses. In the last 10 years, the annual death rate from flu has ranged from 12,000 to 61,000.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Vaccines and a healthier population moving forward for to assist long term should be the goal. Healthier population should be the goal with or workout Covid. It makes sense.

It’s a goal that would require some massive cultural, political, economic and overall structural changes. One example I have pointed out in the past regarding kids being more active is that there are children who live next door to their school but cannot walk to school because the basic infrastructure of a gate and sidewalks do not exist. Just that one little change would require a fight as eminent domain would be involved to build the sidewalks. There are people who wouldn’t want kids walking through what was once their yard to the school. People who wouldn’t want speed limits reduced to make walking on the sidewalks safer. People who wouldn’t want the money spent on acquiring property and building sidewalks. Just adding a sidewalk to a school would be a fight and attack on a way of life.

 

[DisneyCane]

The 1918 Pandemic (which incidentally originated in Kansas) was over in two years, but, led to 50 million deaths. So why is it that we have the vaccines and the information on how to prevent the spread and minimise fatalities and yet, scientists are speculating that we could be dealing with Covid for years, if not decades to come.
I don't understand why people refuse to be vaccinated or wear masks, do they think they are invincible? They didn't have vaccines or wore masks in 1918 and the death count was 10 times it is so far, so take a guess as to how the death toll is so much less this time around, but, also ask why we are nowhere near seeing the end of it yet.

People didn't die of the 1918 flu because they weren't wearing masks. The mortality rate was so high because it killed young people in large numbers. If COVID had the death rate for people under 65 that it has for people over 75 there would be a huge percentage of the world's population dying.

 

[Diamond Dot]

In fact, the influenza strain that causes the Spanish flu has remained with us, becoming the agent responsible for our routine winter illnesses. It is benign, compared to its deadly 1918 form. We are, of course, still susceptible to flu viruses. In the last 10 years, the annual death rate from flu has ranged from 12,000 to 61,000.

People didn't die of the 1918 flu because they weren't wearing masks. The mortality rate was so high because it killed young people in large numbers. If COVID had the death rate for people under 65 that it has for people over 75 there would be a huge percentage of the world's population dying.

As the life expectancy was much lower 100 years ago then of course it would kill young people in large numbers, however, many of those wouldn't have died if they had the information that we have today, masks, social distancing, hand washing, vaccines and the doctors nurses and equipment that are tools to prevent 50 million or more deaths this time around.
The difference isn't the age of the victims, it's the information, sccience and medical technology that we are fortunate to have these days. When you consider how our parents ensured we had the Polio vaccine in the 1950s and 60s, or the BCG in the 70s onwards because they had seen the devastating impacts of Polio and TB and today people refuse to have the vaccine for Covid and the reasons they give, you have to question if we put political views and the word 'freedom' ahead of the greater good.

As for refusing to wear a mask. Wearing a mask is better than wearing a shroud.