Well of course, when you FIRE all your beloved lead imagineers as COVID starts there's nowhere to go but up...
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Zach Riddley promoted to Global Creative Strategy Executive
- Thread starter flynnibus
- Start date
Sir_Cliff
Well-Known Member
I think Disney definitely cultivated Tony Baxter as an official spokesperson of Imagineering in the 1980s and then Rhode after that. Particularly thinking about Baxter's profile, at that time you wouldn't have known who was behind certain attractions and hear their comments if Disney didn't promote their involvement and put them in front of microphones and television cameras to talk about it.
That said, there is a big difference when you can talk about your work on Big Thunder, Star Tours, Journey into Imagination, Splash Mountain, etc. than if you're just speaking in generalities about the Imagineering process and no-one really knows why you're an authority. They seemed to be positioning Zach as a new Imagineering spokesperson, but he was just presented as some kind of general Imagineer overseeing a theme park in a broad sense. You can tell that by the way none of us on here seem to know exactly his input and responsibilities regarding the project he was out promoting.
Perhaps the lesson WDI should take away from this is not that Zach was uniquely awful, but that if they are going to have WDI spokespeople out there, these spokespeople also need to be able to speak with some authority based on their work. As someone who spends far too much time on these forums, out of the present crop I would have difficulty naming specific Imagineers who oversaw specific projects which could be for several reasons.
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Captain Neo
Well-Known Member
its almost as if a national emergency happened shortly after the project was announced
I presume you mean Covid. I don't think Covid has much to do with this result you quoted. Other theme parks have opened and finished things within the same time frame.
Remember that the EPCOT announcements came in August of 2017, nearly 3 years before the pandemic would effect anything and here we are in 2023 after.
What we have, is by choice.
Funny… compare how other projects recovered/resumed verse epcot.
Covid isn’t an excuse for where things are today… or absurdly late moana still not being open…. Or the city park people are going to be paying $110 per person to see after the walls come down.
Covid did not design epcot
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lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
In the case of Evolving Epcot, Iger did suddenly decide he too wanted to be a patron of starchitecture like Mikey. That’s why he paid the high fees for Diller Scofidio + Renfro to design the festival center. The whole project was centered around this one piece that made no financial, logistical, operational or even thematic sense. It was a big fancy thing Iger wanted and everything was shifted around it. The pandemic was Chapek’s excuse to kill something nobody wanted but Iger.
TrainsOfDisney
Well-Known Member
Listen to a real imagineer like Baxter, Hench, Rohde talk about the details and you’ll quickly understand the difference.
Doesn’t matter if his heart is in the right place or not. That doesn’t make you good at your job.
WoundedDreamer
Well-Known Member
Now this is an explanation that makes sense! For all Eisner's faults, he did tend to let Imagineers have their way in the theme parks. Imagineers designed the theme parks and architects designed the resort areas outside of the parks. This setup had serious downsides. Baxter complained about Disney Development Group's master planning and design choices in Paris. He didn't like the sightline intrusions between Walt Disney Studios Park and Disneyland Paris. And Dolphin and Swan's intrusion into Epcot is the stuff of nightmares. But at least they each had their domain.
This is the second time I know of that Iger has allowed architects to intrude on theme park design. The other example is Shanghai Disneyland's Tomorrowland, which was designed by Grimshaw. It's an impressive space, but represents a severe departure from traditional theme park design. It's more like a nice shopping mall or airport than a theme park. Spatial organization there is a bit of a mess. The fact that Iger would force a similar situation onto Epcot sounds about right.
https://grimshaw.global/projects/culture-and-exhibition-halls/shanghai-disney-resort-tomorrowland/
We're a long way from the era when Imagineers designed Walt Disney World to be a storytelling experience well outside the park gate. Now Imagineers aren't even allowed to design the parks.
Rolly nailed it all on the head. The human hand made feel and touches are gone.
Robbiem
Well-Known Member
Interesting I didn’t know Grimshaws were involved in Shanghai. I’ve worked with them on station projects in London. They are one of the better architects but like all designers they need input from the operators to make sure the final design is workable.
Its a shame they aren’t involved at Epcot the eden peoject they designed in Cornwall is amazing and kind of how I imagine the original tony baxter land pavilion would have been
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
Architects are involved in every theme park project. They have to be by law. They're the ones who do the work designing a code compliant facility, produce the facility construction drawings and coordinate the various engineering and even creative disciplines. Their involvement in the creative development can vary from project to project but they generally follow the directions set by the creative and show design teams at Walt Disney Imagineering or Universal Creative. Grimshaw's role in Tomorrowland was really no different than the vast majority of projects for Disney or Universal. They just received permission to publicize their involvement, which is not always the case.
Where the festival center differed is that it was more like the Crescent Lake and Euro Disney hotels where a prominent architect was hired to develop and lead the conceptual and creative design. Even with these high profile firms, Disney often didn't pay them for complete architectural services and had another, typically more local, firm fill the role of architect of record and produce the construction drawings as Grimshaw did on Tomorrowland.
Bocabear
Well-Known Member
I just looked at the photos of Eden and it is beautiful and organic and whimsical. Amazing how those architects did that beautiful project and then created the very cold, very sterile Tomorrowland for Shanghai Disneyland. The scale of portions of it are beautiful, but it feels too much a product of current design trends, and less like something from the future...unless it is a not so distant future and it is an office building or airport. I did not hate it, but it also didn't feel like theme park...just modern urban development.
The lighting was nice at night, their stage was certainly better than WDW's Tomorrowland stage...but as a whole it just felt cold in person.
The Jet pack spinner as a replacement for rocket ships is also not a win... Best parts of Shanghai park were definitely in their new Pirates Cove section...Classic Disney at it's best.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
Grimshaw has 600+ employees in eight different offices around the world. They're not a boutique firm guided by the vision of a single person or small group of persons. Even if the same leads, years later, who worked on the Eden Project also worked on Tomorrowland, they were still following the design direction established by Walt Disney Imagineering.
Tom Fitzgerald is still there
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
Who was replaced by Zach as creative lead for Epcot, and thus also Evolving Epcot, because he was fighting over Marvel in the park.
Bocabear
Well-Known Member
Ok I guess I am not surprised then... Whoever was involved seemed more interested in creating a modern urban space and their own aesthetic that they forgot is was going to be in a theme park and not an airport or corporate office campus.
Tha Realest
Well-Known Member
Seems like that’s a fight he lost
I haven't heard it (or dine with a Disney Legend, which was a thing as well) being offered since the pandemic. Could be in part because a lot of the long-standing Imagineers that had enough stories to fill up a meal were let go/left during the pandemic.
Dan Deesnee
Well-Known Member
Universal is putting up Epic Universe with amazing speed and it looks great so far.
Disney is promoting professional bloggers who oversee disastrous projects to global positions.
Which company will be in better shape 10 years from now?
Easy answer.
Disney is promoting professional bloggers who oversee disastrous projects to global positions.
Which company will be in better shape 10 years from now?
Easy answer.