WSJ: Even Disney Is Worried About The High Cost Of A Disney Vacation (gift link)

[Vegas Disney Fan]

Let people have perceived value again. Bundle the sunshine flyer or whatever the new Magical express bus is into the price of admission. Give all resort staying guests complimentary lightning lane tickets (or at least a few). Increase dining discounts for on-site guests. I think most people will continue to pay the high prices if they at least feel that their money is worth it.

Not to mention bring back the street performers, bring back the characters in the streets, use the showrooms and stages again, bring back the night parade, bring back the fireworks at HS, etc, etc, etc.

The amount of entertainment in the parks is a tiny fraction of what it was pre-Covid, not only does that mean there’s less to do in the parks but that also means all those people that used to be enjoying the entertainment are now standing in lines, it just makes everything worse.

 

[MrPromey]

Again, you're going on and on about something that is beside the point. I do indeed understand that there is more audience overlap with DCL and WDW than there presumably would be with Universal Orlando and Universal Kids. What I am saying is that they are invoking the Universal name and brand equity in such a way that could be detrimental. Even if the audiences are mostly separate (at least by age segregation), using the name still signals something to visitors. If Universal Kids is first contact, won't that color perceptions of Universal in general and possibly impact willingness to engage with the brand in the future upon aging out? And if, assuming the reverse, Universal Orlando is instead first contact, don't you suppose visitors will enter Universal Kids with certain expectations and assumptions? Additionally, I can't imagine there's no desire whatsoever to "graduate" visitors with means to more expensive Universal experiences as they get older.

It's not besides MY point - that IS my point you've been arguing against.

And you're right, it could be detrimental if they do absolutely everything wrong with the rollout of this.

For that, you have to assume they don't know what they're doing and this will fail in which case you'd be absolutely right.

The same could be said about cheap Disney junk being sold in Dollar Tree, vs. similar better quality stuff sold at Target.

It's called market segmentation.

They could put a "welcome center" the size of a DVC kiosk in the park to showcase all the wondrous things that await guest in Orlando and turn your perceived problem into an up-sell opportunity.

Maybe if they're stupid, they won't do that. Maybe they'll market it like a full world-class theme park located in land-locked non-tourst destination Frisco. But maybe they put the welcome center there and their guests end up being too stupid to understand the distinction, despite any effort they make.

That would likely happen if they did everything wrong.

It could still happen if they did everything right with what they build for what they're trying to achieve and they market it clearly but it seems like they must being going by some data point to suggest they don't believe that to be the case.

One things for certain though, they were never going to put a world class theme park in this location. They were never going to jeopardize potential guests from their multi-billion, multi-decade investment to the middle of Texas for a one-day experience rather than encourage them to go to Orlando so for people who think they are going cheap in Orlando and Vegas, what do you think their alternative move would have been?

My guess is it would have been to do nothing at all in Texas or Vegas.

Maybe that'll prove to be the case. If so, I'd expect to see these open and closed within a decade and maybe the Texas one opened re-themed and with a different company operating it.

But I highly doubt they had any major big plans that somehow got scaled down to this or that they one day threw a dart that landed where it did and they said "lets slap something there".

 

[MrPromey]

Generally speaking, I do think it would be foolish to discount the demographic alignment.

Both Horror Unleashed and Universal Kids are about doing things that are smaller and cheaper. There is a difference between the direction of how the content is being handled. Part of the problem with controlling and reducing costs is that they often arise for legitimate reasons and they’re directed towards a certain scale of output. Feature Animation doesn’t really do television because that’s not how they’re budgeted and organized. Even in a golden age of television where the stigma of working in it is gone, it’s still generally smaller, faster productions. There were attempts to make streaming more prestige by having the movie studios do television production and it really hasn’t penciled out.

Universal Kids is the blockbuster movie team trying to do a modest television series. Its direction is more value engineered from the destination parks. Horror Unleashed though is more the television team getting to a big budget special. It’s taking the cheap and disposable thing and pleasing it up. Horror Nights is handled by the local Entertainment teams not Creative and they’ve retained control of the houses in Horror Unleashed.

The pitfall that Horror Unleashed really faces is the ongoing operating costs. It does risk becoming like the permanent house that was at Universal Studios Hollywood, often devoid of the scare actors. The Halloween season has been extended but it’s definitely a question as to whether there will be enough interest in doing a haunt at Christmas to maintain Universal’s established level of house operation.

And I do think this is relevant to Disney. Universal has been speed running a lot of the issues that plague Disney. They’re not the same company that could deliver Harry Potter and the Forbidden Journey for less than The Little Mermaid. They couldn’t do Transformers in 13 months. Bob Gurr left Disney decades ago because he thought there was too much bureaucracy and too many meetings. There are larger market and organizational forces at play within Disney, the fixed amusement business and even the tourism business in general.

All great points.

But smaller and cheaper as opposed to what?

I can't see them picking the middle of Texas or Las Vegas to do something bigger and higher priced. Can you?

Seems like the only alternative would have been to either sink that investment into Orlando and/or Hollywood or to simply do nothing at all.

I think in the case of Las Vegas, they're in a safe place to fail so that seems like a much smaller risk. Shows, attractions and whole resorts regularly erased out there. I remember Old Town had a haunted house and I remember Terror on Church Street, neither of which ultimately worked as year-round attractions in Central Florida but Las Vegas is different crowd and there are plenty of niche attractions aimed at adults which manage to work.

If they fail, there probably won't be much more than a Wikipedia page to commemorate the existence and since, like you said, their "TV" team are working on it, it's not a serious investment.

If it's just the business model and not the quality of the experience that is bad, I don't think they stand to do any reputational harm with this one, at least and they do know how to make a haunted house. Heck, even their temporary pop-up stores are pretty detailed so they certainly know how to stretch a dime in that area.

The kids park is obviously the bigger gamble since they don't exactly have an amazing track record of impressive longstanding attractions geared to that demographic but like I said before, I'd feel a lot different about Toy Story Land if it were part of a small regional experience with a lower ticket price than I do today with it as a part of Hollywood Studios.

I think they could still go cheap by their standards and produce something better than most of what they're competing with.

We'll see what happens, though.

 

[MrPromey]

17 and 1/2 and what does my age have to do with anything?

Depends.

How many vacations have you personally planned and paid for, yourself?

How many people were you planning for and paying for?

 

[MrPromey]

You are misrepresenting what I’m saying in case you didn’t see it here’s my point

Again I’m not saying the park will be bad I won’t judge that until I actually go many years from now merely that the “it’s for kids” argument is weak and offensive to actual kids

I’m actually excited to see what the camp Cretaceous and SpongeBob rides end up being (I am not a SpongeBob fan)

It can be both not bad and also something a 25 year old without kids who ignored all the marketing thinks they wasted their time and money traveling to when they get there and fully realize it was designed for someone 17 years younger than them.

Sorry, I meant 17 and 1/2 years younger.

As a parent, I can appreciate what Legoland is while acknowledging it's not meant for me, despite my eternal love for those little plastic landmines.

 

[Jrb1979]

It can be both not bad and also something a 25 year old without kids who ignored all the marketing thinks they wasted their time and money traveling to when they get there and fully realize it was designed for someone 17 years younger than them.

Sorry, I meant 17 and 1/2 years younger.

IMO that's what many don't get. It's not meant to be what DCL is to WDW. It's not even a park that supposed to be a destination park. It's a park built for Frisco and it's growing population.

 

[hopemax]

I know WDWMagic doesn't want politics injected, but it's surreal to read this thread with no mention of the expected impact of thousands of people who have recently been pink slipped (pending legal challenges), industries and small businesses that are dependent on Federal dollars (pending legal challenges), predictions of what will happen to the prices of durable goods (and everything else), and snowball effects I won't even mention, on affordability. Especially for customers up and down the East Coast. Is the International market going to hold up? The words "decrease aggregate demand," as an economic plan were mentioned like today. My Great Recession / Financial crisis + 1970s badness alarm bells have been ringing non-stop for the last 2 weeks. Has no one here been impacted by what has been announced so far? Does Disney have any plan for an economic downturn?

 

[Jrb1979]

I know WDWMagic doesn't want politics injected, but it's surreal to read this thread with no mention of the expected impact of thousands of people who have recently been pink slipped (pending legal challenges), industries and small businesses that are dependent on Federal dollars (pending legal challenges), predictions of what will happen to the prices of durable goods (and everything else), and snowball effects I won't even mention, on affordability. Especially for customers up and down the East Coast. Is the International market going to hold up? The words "decrease aggregate demand," as an economic plan were mentioned like today. My Great Recession / Financial crisis + 1970s badness alarm bells have been ringing non-stop for the last 2 weeks. Has no one here been impacted by what has been announced so far? Does Disney have any plan for an economic downturn?

That's the scary thing. Numbers wise they aren't great right now and that's with travel still up overall. What's it going to look like when that travel number drops significantly if the economy has a down turn.

 

[MrPromey]

I know WDWMagic doesn't want politics injected, but it's surreal to read this thread with no mention of the expected impact of thousands of people who have recently been pink slipped (pending legal challenges), industries and small businesses that are dependent on Federal dollars (pending legal challenges), predictions of what will happen to the prices of durable goods (and everything else), and snowball effects I won't even mention, on affordability. Especially for customers up and down the East Coast. Is the International market going to hold up? The words "decrease aggregate demand," as an economic plan were mentioned like today. My Great Recession / Financial crisis + 1970s badness alarm bells have been ringing non-stop for the last 2 weeks. Has no one here been impacted by what has been announced so far? Does Disney have any plan for an economic downturn?

Like you said, we're not supposed to be talking politics.

I expect your post to be removed along with mine.

I'm sure every single adult here has an opinion no matter where in the world they are, (probably a strong one, one way or the other) they'd like to share on this topic that they've been biting their tongue on.

... which is exactly why it shouldn't be brought up unless we want to see this thread locked.

I wish we were in a climate where this kind of thing could be discussed in a reasonable pragmatic manner.

 

[hopemax]

I’m not sure there has been another time when expected unemployment, interest rates, inflation is not a valid discussion regarding affordability, without going into all the *hand waving* everything else. How legitimate can the discussion be if we eliminate those things from the conversation?

 

[MrPromey]

Yes, I think I’d point to the unbundling as a big value killer as well. I think they’ve really underestimated the mood killer that nickel and diming and decision fatigue is. Unbundling airport transfers, Magicbands, and FPs from onsite guests just as 3 quick examples (and the latter obviously from everyone) may have given them two areas of cost savings and some new revenue streams, but it also created 3 new expenses for guests and 3 new areas of value propositions that can lead to the feeling of trips not being worth it and being too complex.

They also seem to be blurring the lines between happy spending and reluctant spending, I’d describe that as the difference between a guest paying for the dessert party because they love it and a guest paying for LLMP because they feel like it’s necessary. It’s exciting to decide to go to MNSSHP. It’s not as exciting to research which airport transfers you’re going to take, and which days you’ll need LLMP purchased to make your trip run smoother.

I don't think they could have gotten away with the price increase they'd have needed to make comparable profits if they'd kept FP+ around.

They were able to pull a fast one on folks by pointing out that their ticket prices only went up a few bucks a day while completely ignoring that it involved them removing a benefit on the tickets that was worth between $15-$25 plus ILL pricing on top at the time (so... $50+ in reduced benefit according to their pricing) and is now worth, what? As much as $35 plus ILL?

To this day, nobody who likes to talk about ticket price increases as if it's reasonable ever mentions that as the price on that proverbial jar of peanut butter went up, the recessed bubble at the bottom got a lot bigger, too.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I’m not sure there has been another time when expected unemployment, interest rates, inflation is not a valid discussion regarding affordability, without all the *hand waving* everything else. How legitimate can the discussion be if we eliminate those things from the conversation?

Because we’ve decided that acknowledging facts is itself political if it makes certain decisions look bad. We’re just supposed to pretend there will be no impact even though that itself is the true political statement.

 

[lazyboy97o]

But smaller and cheaper as opposed to what?

I can't see them picking the middle of Texas or Las Vegas to do something bigger and higher priced. Can you?

Again, cheaper isn’t just the strategy for certain ventures. It’s the current plan for the whole division.

 

[MrPromey]

I’m not sure there has been another time when expected unemployment, interest rates, inflation is not a valid discussion regarding affordability, without going into all the *hand waving* everything else. How legitimate can the discussion be if we eliminate those things from the conversation?

I understand.

Thing is, you started the post with "I know WDWMagic doesn't want politics injected, but".

So you know the rules. You know you're breaking them. You're doing it anyway.

Will you be okay when/if it's deleted or will you have thoughts on that?

I assume that's the worst that'll likely happen since Steve and Mom give us all a lot of second chances.

Maybe I'm wrong though and the conversation will stay civil and they won't need to jump in.

I'd like to be wrong.

 

[Jrb1979]

Again, cheaper isn’t just the strategy for certain ventures. It’s the current plan for the whole division.

For both companies for that matter. It's so odd how things have changed. Disney and Universal are heading to the cheap route, while parks like Dollywood are all about guest satisfaction and world class experiences

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

Eliminate the reservation system for AP holders.

Meh, Im’ an AP holder and I don’t care about this at all. I’d rather they keep it for Christmas-NY than eliminate it entirely.

 

[flynnibus]

Disney killed the golden goose and it was just a matter of time till the tipping point arrived.

The first two generations after wdw open were converted into fierce brand loyalists. Wowed ans swooned, they regenerated with the next generation through the kids growing up and repeating the cycle.

Disney created ‘fans’ who would actually shape their lifestyle around wdw vacations. Borderline cult-like… and the reputation earned ensured a new feeder line of new recruits.

But in the 2000s they started taking this for granted. New waves of leadership focused on cashing in verse ensuring the cycled continued.

Then Disney started directly chipping away at the things that nurtured the loyalists. They started treating guests like “your dollars are replacable”. Disney basically stopped building brand loyalty and instead focused on capitalizing on the guest… even blatantly in front of them.

Defense like “everyone else does it…” highlighted exactly that. Disney was no longer different…. The cycle was broken and now Disney no longer had blind faith from their customers. People openly feel nickled and dimed. It’s every family for themselves….

So the armor is gone… you are exposed to just see how much you can land before customers give up on you.

Disney was coasting on it’s past reputation while not restocking the barn. Generational loyalty is gone. Wdw becomes more ‘one and done’… something people grimmice through to say they did it… but no longer join the cult.

It accelerates into a death spiral as disney monetizes more to sustain growth while doing little to indoctrinate new loyalists… and making its own barrier to conversion even taller.

Now sustaining growth is too hard… you are too big… defending your own price differentiation makes you too inflexible.. and it costs too much to keep innovating so you slumble and slow even more.


Disney’s turning their back on their brand loyalty and what created it killed the golden goose.

Disney turned everyone into park commandos… then monetized it and everything short of taking a dump… and then can’t find their way back to what actually created that kind of lifelong fan.

All empires eventually fall…

 

[MrPromey]

Again, cheaper isn’t just the strategy for certain ventures. It’s the current plan for the whole division.

What are they in the active stages of working on right now that we have real details on besides these two things?

I tried looking up the UK project and could find zero details with no start date even planned on construction or exactly what it will have - only that it's expected maybe as early as 2030?

I know RRR is scheduled for closer this year and a replacement but I have to imagine if it'll be what we are expecting it to be, it will be better than what it's replacing and what carries the same theme down the guest path a bit, today.

Beyond that, I'm not aware of anything else not still in the planning stages.

Not doubting you but if you know more, can you post a link or suggest a google search term so I can get up to speed?

 

[MrPromey]

Disney killed the golden goose and it was just a matter of time till the tipping point arrived.

The first two generations after wdw open were converted into fierce brand loyalists. Wowed ans swooned, they regenerated with the next generation through the kids growing up and repeating the cycle.

Disney created ‘fans’ who would actually shape their lifestyle around wdw vacations. Borderline cult-like… and the reputation earned ensured a new feeder line of new recruits.

But in the 2000s they started taking this for granted. New waves of leadership focused on cashing in verse ensuring the cycled continued.

Then Disney started directly chipping away at the things that nurtured the loyalists. They started treating guests like “your dollars are replacable”. Disney basically stopped building brand loyalty and instead focused on capitalizing on the guest… even blatantly in front of them.

Defense like “everyone else does it…” highlighted exactly that. Disney was no longer different…. The cycle was broken and now Disney no longer had blind faith from their customers. People openly feel nickled and dimed. It’s every family for themselves….

So the armor is gone… you are exposed to just see how much you can land before customers give up on you.

Disney was coasting on it’s past reputation while not restocking the barn. Generational loyalty is gone. Wdw becomes more ‘one and done’… something people grimmice through to say they did it… but no longer join the cult.

It accelerates into a death spiral as disney monetizes more to sustain growth while doing little to indoctrinate new loyalists… and making its own barrier to conversion even taller.

Now sustaining growth is too hard… you are too big… defending your own price differentiation makes you too inflexible.. and it costs too much to keep innovating so you slumble and slow even more.


Disney’s turning their back on their brand loyalty and what created it killed the golden goose.

Disney turned everyone into park commandos… then monetized it and everything short of taking a dump… and then can’t find their way back to what actually created that kind of lifelong fan.

All empires eventually fall…

I know this reads way melodramatically but I agree 100%.

 

[hopemax]

I understand.

Thing is, you started the post with "I know WDWMagic doesn't want politics injected, but".

So you know the rules. You know you're breaking them. You're doing it anyway.

Will you be okay when/if it's deleted or will you have thoughts on that?

I assume that's the worst that'll likely happen since Steve and Mom give us all a lot of second chances.

Maybe I'm wrong though and the conversation will stay civil and they won't need to jump in.

I'd like to be wrong.

I’m trying to discuss basic economic indicators. Which I don’t believe are against WDWMagic rules. And extremely relevant to affordability. Unlike litigating the rules, which is the direction you took, and a discussion I do not wish to discuss.