Workers want pay boost

[flynnibus]

Were you born in a one room apartment in a ghetto or were you born in a delightful four bedroom home in suburbia with white picket fences as far as the eye can see? Sometimes where you come from impacts where you end up. Try having a bit of empathy for your fellow human beings on this planet.

Excuses excuses. Things like education mattered even less back then... most people never finished high school no less... yet they became 'the greatest generation'.

My grandfather lived in a 2 room city rowhouse only about 8ft wide... with his 5 siblings. Yet he went on to be a butcher, a business owner and raised 7 kids of his own, being able to send some to private school, who then went on to work their way through college. My father married my mother, had a child, had to pay his way through school, worked, and still managed to have a fraternity life and graduate as an aeronautical engineer. All before he was 22.

Barriers are different today... but people found success not through entitlements, but through sacrifice and work.

 

[GoofGoof]

Excuses excuses. Things like education mattered even less back then... most people never finished high school no less... yet they became 'the greatest generation'.

My grandfather lived in a 2 room city rowhouse only about 8ft wide... with his 5 siblings. Yet he went on to be a butcher, a business owner and raised 7 kids of his own, being able to send some to private school, who then went on to work their way through college. My father married my mother, had a child, had to pay his way through school, worked, and still managed to have a fraternity life and graduate as an aeronautical engineer. All before he was 22.

Barriers are different today... but people found success not through entitlements, but through sacrifice and work.

Is financial aid for college an entitlement?

 

[slappy magoo]

Excuses excuses. Things like education mattered even less back then... most people never finished high school no less... yet they became 'the greatest generation'.

My grandfather lived in a 2 room city rowhouse only about 8ft wide... with his 5 siblings. Yet he went on to be a butcher, a business owner and raised 7 kids of his own, being able to send some to private school, who then went on to work their way through college. My father married my mother, had a child, had to pay his way through school, worked, and still managed to have a fraternity life and graduate as an aeronautical engineer. All before he was 22.

Barriers are different today... but people found success not through entitlements, but through sacrifice and work.

Dude, if the guy's telling the truth about his age, he was born in '44, so he wasn't part of the Greatest Generation, he would have preceded the baby boom by 2 years. And do you really think, as he claims, there weren't any welfare programs in '44? He or his family might not have wanted or accepted aid, but that doesn't mean it wasn't available.

You're being played. Let it go. At the very least, ask your new best friend which in which war he served.

 

[flynnibus]

Dude, if the guy's telling the truth about his age, he was born in '44, so he wasn't part of the Greatest Generation, he would have preceded the baby boom by 2 years. And do you really think, as he claims, there weren't any welfare programs in '44? He or his family might not have wanted or accepted aid, but that doesn't mean it wasn't available.

You're being played. Let it go. At the very least, ask your new best friend which in which war he served.

As for being played.. if you read my post it wasn't really about the 'old guys' comments, but the person I replied to (Buddy) who tried to dismiss people based on 'easy upbringings'.

The 'suburbia with white picket fences' is a function of the post-war era... and my grandfather was born in 1920.. and a WWII vet.. and yes, part of the 'greatest generation'.

So instead of trying to see what you want to see.. try reading the content.

 

[flynnibus]

Is financial aid for college an entitlement?

Entitlement != assistance - different words with different meanings. AFAIK tho, my father and his brothers didn't get any financial aid... but that was back when state schools were actually affordable. The topic of student loans and the tuition inflation they support is another miserable subject and example of how giving money to pay for things instead of trying to control costs will always lead to higher costs down the road.

 

[jakeman]

At least you guys aren't arguing about pay any more...progress?

 

[slappy magoo]

At least you guys aren't arguing about pay any more...progress?

Give this thread 2 more weeks and we'll be all "Kirk/Picard," "Joel/Mike" "Van Halen/Van Hagar."

 

[jakeman]

Give this thread 2 more weeks and we'll be all "Kirk/Picard," "Joel/Mike" "Van Halen/Van Hagar."

Sisko
Joel
No opinion

 

[lobelia]

one field of work that is vastly underemployed is skilled labor (plumbers, electricians etc....)
that's a fault of our schools (and im a teacher) way too much focus on going to college is the only option and not enough on tech jobs that are good paying jobs you don't need a four year degree

Way late into the debate....

Here's a link to a speech by Mike Rowe at the BSA Jamboree last summer advocating your point.

 

[GoofGoof]

Entitlement != assistance - different words with different meanings. AFAIK tho, my father and his brothers didn't get any financial aid... but that was back when state schools were actually affordable. The topic of student loans and the tuition inflation they support is another miserable subject and example of how giving money to pay for things instead of trying to control costs will always lead to higher costs down the road.

I thought entitlements were originally meant to be things like Social Security and Medicare where you paid into the system to become "entitled" to future benefits. The word seems to have evolved to mean handouts like food stamps and welfare as well. I'm not sure where to classify something like a minimum wage since it's not a hand out, but setting a minimum for base pay. In any case I feel lucky to have not needed things like food stamps or welfare in my life, but I did have school loans which were backed by the federal government. Without those loans I could not have gone to the college I went to or had the experience I had. I'm not saying I would be a crack dealer on a street corner now without them, I probably would have turned out OK anyway, but who knows. I'm thankful that the programs existed and helped me pay for my education.

Not that it really matters, but state schools are partially funded by the state. That's how they keep tuition down. Not a federal hand out, but still a benefit from the government.

 

[flynnibus]

I thought entitlements were originally meant to be things like Social Security and Medicare where you paid into the system to become "entitled" to future benefits. The word seems to have evolved to mean handouts like food stamps and welfare as well

It's used in the context of things people believe they are ENTITLED to - not simply available help from the government or another entity. Things people believe they are OWED vs things people take advantage of being offered. The availability of subsidized loans or scholarships are not things people are entitled to, they are things offered for those that meet the criteria or are selected.

The problem becomes as things become common, the newer generations have take that to mean it is OWED to them vs something earned or given.

The previous generations wanted their children to have a better life than they had and worked to achieve that. The new generations expect the life their parents had is a default starting position that should be guaranteed to them.

 

[GoofGoof]

It's used in the context of things people believe they are ENTITLED to - not simply available help from the government or another entity. Things people believe they are OWED vs things people take advantage of being offered. The availability of subsidized loans or scholarships are not things people are entitled to, they are things offered for those that meet the criteria or are selected.

The problem becomes as things become common, the newer generations have take that to mean it is OWED to them vs something earned or given.

The previous generations wanted their children to have a better life than they had and worked to achieve that. The new generations expect the life their parents had is a default starting position that should be guaranteed to them.

Agreed that in some cases parts of society have become too dependent on government hand outs. But in the case of minimum wage, the previous posts showed that current levels adjusted for inflation are actually a lower starting position than previous generations. That, IMHO is the problem. I'm not advocated socialism or an increased welfare state. Just a return to the previous basic level or maybe a slight increase over it.

 

[GoofGoof]

Why are we discussing rewarding a discontent, lazy rabble who sit around all day on their brains? If they want higher pay, develop some sort of skill that will garner a real job that pays a real wage. The minimum wage was never meant to be used as a tool against poverty.

I think FDR would disagree. President Roosevelt signed the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) into law in early 1938. The FLSA introduced sweeping regulations to protect American workers from being exploited, and created a mandatory federal minimum wage of 25 cents an hour in order to maintain a "minimum standard of living necessary for health, efficiency and general well-being, without substantially curtailing employment".

Here's a few more quotes from him when he was first establishing the minimum wage:

“No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.”

“By living wages, I mean more than a bare subsistence level — I mean the wages of a decent living.”

“Without question it starts us toward a better standard of living and increases purchasing power to buy the products of farm and factory.”

 

[Nubs70]

I think FDR would disagree. President Roosevelt signed the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) into law in early 1938. The FLSA introduced sweeping regulations to protect American workers from being exploited, and created a mandatory federal minimum wage of 25 cents an hour in order to maintain a "minimum standard of living necessary for health, efficiency and general well-being, without substantially curtailing employment".

Here's a few more quotes from him when he was first establishing the minimum wage:

“No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.”

“By living wages, I mean more than a bare subsistence level — I mean the wages of a decent living.”

“Without question it starts us toward a better standard of living and increases purchasing power to buy the products of farm and factory.”

But it also increases the cost to produce products of farm and factory.

 

[GoofGoof]

But it also increases the cost to produce products of farm and factory.

Yes, it does. No argument there. It's funny how back in the 1930s the same arguments were made when the minimum wage was rolled out that are still being made today. FDR had to fight business leaders who said the minimum wage would bankrupt them.

 

[Nubs70]

Yes, it does. No argument there. It's funny how back in the 1930s the same arguments were made when the minimum wage was rolled out that are still being made today. FDR had to fight business leaders who said the minimum wage would bankrupt them.

How many businesses were bankrupted?

 

[GoofGoof]

How many businesses were bankrupted?

I have no clue. I'm sure there were some. No major, notable company that I have heard about. There were probably some who lost their jobs too if employers cut back on head count. Minimum wage has been raised numerous times from the $0.25 it started at and those raises to my knowledge haven't resulted in significant losses to corporations.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Yes, it does. No argument there. It's funny how back in the 1930s the same arguments were made when the minimum wage was rolled out that are still being made today. FDR had to fight business leaders who said the minimum wage would bankrupt them.

The effectiveness of the New Deal in handling the depression has been coming under question more and more in recent years.

 

[englanddg]

Entitlement != assistance - different words with different meanings. AFAIK tho, my father and his brothers didn't get any financial aid... but that was back when state schools were actually affordable. The topic of student loans and the tuition inflation they support is another miserable subject and example of how giving money to pay for things instead of trying to control costs will always lead to higher costs down the road.

The issue, in my opinion (and note, it's my opinion) is subsidy and credit.

Whenever you massively subsidize (and I use the literal definition, not the policial one...subsidy does not have to be from government alone) a product or market, you allow the market to charge inflated prices for their goods.

Whether this be healthcare (subsidized both through government programs and insurance), housing (subsidized through easy credit loans, government programs and government regulations/laws), consumer markets (subsidized through easy personal credit), education (subsidized through government grants and sponsored loans), the auto market (subsidized through easy credit loans), list goes on.

Whenever the market can charge more for the product, they will. And when they've capped out the current program / situation, they'll do one of two things. Either crash and require more subsidy, or change the rules of the game to obtain more subsidy.

 

[englanddg]

I thought entitlements were originally meant to be things like Social Security and Medicare where you paid into the system to become "entitled" to future benefits. The word seems to have evolved to mean handouts like food stamps and welfare as well. I'm not sure where to classify something like a minimum wage since it's not a hand out, but setting a minimum for base pay. In any case I feel lucky to have not needed things like food stamps or welfare in my life, but I did have school loans which were backed by the federal government. Without those loans I could not have gone to the college I went to or had the experience I had. I'm not saying I would be a crack dealer on a street corner now without them, I probably would have turned out OK anyway, but who knows. I'm thankful that the programs existed and helped me pay for my education.

Not that it really matters, but state schools are partially funded by the state. That's how they keep tuition down. Not a federal hand out, but still a benefit from the government.

Sortof. A lot of federal initiatives meet (sidestep) constitutional muster (namely the 10th amendment) by collecting funds centrally through federal taxation, but then distributing the funds to state level agencies.