Workers want pay boost

[Pumbas Nakasak]

I'd argue that the primary problem with the low end of the wage scale is that, due to globalization, the pool of unskilled and semi-skilled labor has grown exponentially, which (disparities in regional economic conditions and demands aside) is going to drive down labor costs in and of itself. This isn't simply an issue that can be "solved" by mandating a specific minimum or "living" wage. This is a convulsive event that no one has a clear answer for.

And to make matters worse, the ongoing revolution in robotics is going to eventually become like the detonation of an economic atom bomb on labor. And that's not even considering the somewhat longer term impact of artificial intelligence.

The point being, technological convulsions to our economy are going to happen on an accelerating basis, and likely much faster than we can begin to cope with them.

So in short sterilise all those below a certain IQ

 

[flynnibus]

And as my example the schools which are state, do. They take money out of their operating budget to give aid to students who parents can't afford. So band, music, art, the extra's are cut to help the unfortunate students instead of the employers. The Elected Officials don't care about these families, they want the corporations happy, they lure the big business to their states offering lower wages as bait

I hear what you are saying - I just don't think it's that cut and dry. For one, schools are largely funded by local taxes. My observations are not schools cutting because the assistance programs are draining them, but because they are bloated everywhere else or suffering from issues like crowding or under funded capital improvements. Can't say I've ever heard of assistance programs being the justification for the school boards to make cuts. As you said, many of those assistance programs are funded by federal or state programs... so it's not even the same color of money that would be funding art, band, etc.

As long as state politicians have the power to keep big businesses happy and they get to stay in office due to Corporate donations[...]
That cycle would end if it became a higher Minimum Wage, keeps the donation pawn out of the political mix.

As long as our laws are written to allow freedom to donate to political campaigns.. those problems will persist across the board. Wages I think are way down the ladder when it comes to this topic.

 

[flynnibus]

So in short sterilise all those below a certain IQ

No, raise our children to be willing to adapt to the labor demands... not sit back and go 'waaaahhh... I want the jobs we USED to have' - and conditioning them that blue collar work is 'bad'. Which is what America did for the last 20 years as globalization undermined our manufacturing.. and instead of adapting, we tried to dig our heels in and artificially hold onto industries that could not compete on the new global market.

As long as we are the preachers of free trade... we need to accept we need to COMPETE on a 'the world is flat' market. Else, we should abandon free trade and instead shift to a more nationalistic approach of protecting our home industries.

 

[flynnibus]

Flynn, Agree with your major points, There will NEVER be ONE living wage it's just a mathematical impossibility, But the economy has grown seriously out of balance since the 1980's - real wages are declining rapidly while corporate profits have been growing exponentially, In the 1980's corporations had really weak profit margins. This is no longer true.

One of the key reasons for slow growth in the economy is one companies salary expense is another's REVENUE we need to take a holistic look at how we operate companies and change the relationship between retained earnings and salary to put more money in employee's pockets which will grow the economy as a whole.

If Companies do not do something like this and SOON, The Gov't will and that will be FAR worse than a rebalancing of companies priorities.

You touch on some complex points... I just don't think wage stagnation is a kingpin in all of it. I look more towards the revolution of electronic trading, speed of information, and the overall changes in the investment communities as more the instigators. The speed, the audience, the exposure.. all of these things contribute to the 'perpetual growth' mentality that drives our economic models these days.

Slappy thinks employees should be allowed to just stay stagnant and be happy with where they are - alas publicly traded companies are no longer given that same grace. IMO - that mentality from the top down is far more devastating and behind so many of the actions.

 

[lazyboy97o]

What would high income earners and the wealthy loose if raising the minimums age to a high enough level really could [nearly] eliminate the need for government assistance? As the primary tax payers, especially not he federal level, their tax burden goes down. As employers their concern regarding changes in regulatory and tax policy would likely be reduced. Social anxiety would be reduced thus ensuring the maintenance of the status quo and thus their position atop the socio-economic pyramid. It seems if so much could so easily be solved it would have worked somewhere.

Especially when in context of a fiat currency, just changing numbers only provides a temporary relief. There is no way to stop other costs from being changed in accordance with pay unless we go to a completely centrally planned economy where the government regulates wages, prices and, most importantly, profit margins. Otherwise, in the end, all we've accomplished adjusting numbers with no real change in purchasing power or economic status.

 

[ford91exploder]

No, raise our children to be willing to adapt to the labor demands... not sit back and go 'waaaahhh... I want the jobs we USED to have' - and conditioning them that blue collar work is 'bad'. Which is what America did for the last 20 years as globalization undermined our manufacturing.. and instead of adapting, we tried to dig our heels in and artificially hold onto industries that could not compete on the new global market.

As long as we are the preachers of free trade... we need to accept we need to COMPETE on a 'the world is flat' market. Else, we should abandon free trade and instead shift to a more nationalistic approach of protecting our home industries.

Notice that the Europeans are competing quite nicely on the world market and the wages are far higher than they are in the US for the 'Average' worker, However their trade policies are far more mercantilist than the US and they actively protect key economic sectors.

The US currently has an insane trade policy which makes us the market of last resort, 'FREE' trade is a losing game if all your trading partners are mercantilist which they are. So the Chinese and others have unfettered access to OUR markets while we are effectively closed out of THEIR markets.

A 'FREE TRADE' economy will never be able to compete against a mercantilst economy, I've often thought we ought to change our trade policy so that our trade practices with that country mirror theirs with our country.

Example NEW cars imported into Japan from the US have to undergo a 'safety inspection' on each individual vehicle which basically means any part which can be removed from the car IS and inspected and then reassembled. this triples the cost of a US built car in Japan.

In China you must have a majority 'partner' to sell your products in China, Fellowes got burned by this - one day they found the locks changed and cash swept from accounts - The partner had appropriated the assets

 

[ford91exploder]

You touch on some complex points... I just don't think wage stagnation is a kingpin in all of it. I look more towards the revolution of electronic trading, speed of information, and the overall changes in the investment communities as more the instigators. The speed, the audience, the exposure.. all of these things contribute to the 'perpetual growth' mentality that drives our economic models these days.

Slappy thinks employees should be allowed to just stay stagnant and be happy with where they are - alas publicly traded companies are no longer given that same grace. IMO - that mentality from the top down is far more devastating and behind so many of the actions.

Once again I agree with the majority of your points, However the US is currently on a trajectory to create an economic oligarchy and we need to get off that train and FAST, We need to slow down and seriously re-evaluate our wage and tax structures,

I personally think we need a far simpler and transparent tax code, And one which rewards the productive use of money and taxes 'passive income' much more heavily. Our current system makes it difficult to pass along a small company or farm without needing to take on debt or sell, Yet it does virtually nothing to multi-billion dollar holdings,

 

[flynnibus]

Notice that the Europeans are competing quite nicely on the world market and the wages are far higher than they are in the US for the 'Average' worker, However their trade policies are far more mercantilist than the US and they actively protect key economic sectors.

Exactly.. the 'however' there is what makes all the difference. Places like France and Germany hold onto industry even with crazy labor policies compared to here... but they are able to do it by protecting them from international competition... all while happily importing the stuff they can't do themselves cheaply. It makes them specialist that can afford to build higher end products as long as they can import stuff they can't do economically.

 

[ford91exploder]

Exactly.. the 'however' there is what makes all the difference. Places like France and Germany hold onto industry even with crazy labor policies compared to here... but they are able to do it by protecting them from international competition... all while happily importing the stuff they can't do themselves cheaply. It makes them specialist that can afford to build higher end products as long as they can import stuff they can't do economically.

Exactly - the very definition of a mercantilist economy, As far as I'm concerned there is nothing WRONG with a mercantilist economy and they tend to work BETTER for the average citizen than the so called 'free trade' economy which is basically a race to the bottom.

 

[GenerationX]

So in short sterilise all those below a certain IQ

I'm pretty sure we'll always need some Epsilon minuses in the brave new world.

Once again I agree with the majority of your points, However the US is currently on a trajectory to create an economic oligarchy and we need to get off that train and FAST, We need to slow down and seriously re-evaluate our wage and tax structures,

I personally think we need a far simpler and transparent tax code, And one which rewards the productive use of money and taxes 'passive income' much more heavily. Our current system makes it difficult to pass along a small company or farm without needing to take on debt or sell, Yet it does virtually nothing to multi-billion dollar holdings,

I'll take you one-step further and say we should repeal all income taxes in their entirety and go with the Fair Tax (national sales tax with a "prebate" to keep purchases up to the poverty level tax-free). Keeps us a "free market" economy, but positions us to compete better globally.

 

[jakeman]

No it's not - Good parents instill the basic skills, It's your first job which teaches you that you ARE NOT A SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE, that teamwork is essential, that respect needs to be given to superiors whether earned or not and ahost of other things that one never learns at home unless one is a part of a family business (or you are a Ferengi)

The special snowflake problem is why we have people majoring in dumb crap that doesn't lead to a job.

A parent's job is to make sure their child is a productive member of society. Part of that is instilling them the values that keep on the job training to the job at hand, not character traits.

 

[Jrn14]

But you can find a job paying more than minimum wage quite easily. The issue is you need to actually do the work required... not just the work you want to do.

It's kind of why they call it 'work'

You didn’t get the point of what I was saying… sure I can go find a different job above minimum wage and I did… lots of people do but everyone is using the excuse that each and every front of the line cast member in Disney and basically anyone who works in the service industry can all go find a better job… In this perfect world where there are 50,000 + data entry jobs available in Orlando for all the front of the line cast members at WDW. In this utopian world where the only people working as front of the line cast members are 16 year olds and retired data entry specialists just looking to keep busy. Stop being ridiculous… There aren’t enough good jobs for all the millions of adults who work in the retail, restaurant, hotel, theme parks,etc.. to all get better jobs… ..and nobody on top wants them all to get better jobs because there would be nobody to buckle little Jimmy into Dumbo or make your soy caramel macchiato at Starbucks. Our society is set up so people have to take these jobs… and no I don’t think these people should be driving around in Mercedes or vacationing to south of France.. but they should be able to live a comfortable life.. ie. shelter/food/utilities… and yes even some entertainment..

Also the vast majority of hardest working days I've experienced were working for Disney, a grocery store, a restaruant etc... Now that I have one of those so called "jobs that require work" I don't have all that much to do on a daily basis. but apparently it must be harder work because it pays more...

 

[flynnibus]

You didn’t get the point of what I was saying… sure I can go find a different job above minimum wage and I did…

Yet you said doing so was 'BS' - so not sure why you called it BS when you proved you aren't stuck working at Disney.

lots of people do but everyone is using the excuse that each and every front of the line cast member in Disney and basically anyone who works in the service industry can all go find a better job…

Anything can be torn apart if you require absolutes (each and every front of the line cast member..). No there isn't 30k 'better paying jobs' in Orlando for every front-line CM... and that's why Disney can get away with it. But that doesn't mean each and every Disney CM is stuck, nor does it mean you can't do something about it by leaving that job market.

There aren’t enough good jobs for all the millions of adults who work in the retail, restaurant, hotel, theme parks,etc.. to all get better jobs…

There are better jobs... but if you 'stop being rediculous' and stop requiring EVERY person do it to qualify it as legitimate... and recognize that for all those 'millions' - not everyone is working the for the bottom of the barrel wages.. even in those industries.

Our society is set up so people have to take these jobs…

No our society is conditioned to be risk adverse and wait for something to better to be handed to us. People work a job for just above minimum wage in an area they complain about the cost of living... then move somewhere and make the same minimum wage in an area with cheaper cost of living. It's not like you are going to be paid LESS - you're already making the bare minimum with crappy hours. You're basically at the bottom with no where to go but up... but people are still like 'but it might not work..'. You can always find a grunt job paying minimum wage.. so it really can't get any lower than you have.

Also the vast majority of hardest working days I've experienced were working for Disney, a grocery store, a restaruant etc... Now that I have one of those so called "jobs that require work" I don't have all that much to do on a daily basis. but apparently it must be harder work because it pays more...

Wages reflect how easily a person can be placed into the role... more than they reflect the amount of 'work'.

 

[Gabe1]

In China you must have a majority 'partner' to sell your products in China, Fellowes got burned by this - one day they found the locks changed and cash swept from accounts - The partner had appropriated the assets

While that is a very compact version of what happened to Fellowes, they are still alive and well, manufacturing in China. Ultimately the labor costs kinda washed the ooops. I know the Financial Officer, he lives in China more than his home with his family, still. It amazes me continuously what some people and corporations will sacrifice to generate a better bottom line. Not much different than Disney.

As for the rest of all THIS it comes down to two choices, higher wages at some cost to the record breaking earnings or more reliance on government subsidies for the working poor. It is that simple. Either the Corporation ponies up or the government ponies up.

The last recession has put more people in these low level job positions long term. We have more college graduates taking low earning positions than ever before carrying staggering student loans higher than any time in history. The game has changed. Who's pocket it will come out of to off set the working poor dilemma are the only choices. Some of us favor the Government and Tax payers letting Disney off the hook so they can have record breaking earnings and others of us support the mindset that government should be the ones to offset the working poor as we as a nation will not turn our backs on our own. It isn't pretty but ultimately it isn't just a Disney consideration, it is a national direction that needs to be resolved.

 

[lazyboy97o]

As for the rest of all THIS it comes down to two choices, higher wages at some cost to the record breaking earnings or more reliance on government subsidies for the working poor. It is that simple. Either the Corporation ponies up or the government ponies up.

The last recession has put more people in these low level job positions long term. We have more college graduates taking low earning positions than ever before carrying staggering student loans higher than any time in history. The game has changed. Who's pocket it will come out of to off set the working poor dilemma are the only choices. Some of us favor the Government and Tax payers letting Disney off the hook so they can have record breaking earnings and others of us support the mindset that government should be the ones to offset the working poor as we as a nation will not turn our backs on our own. It isn't pretty but ultimately it isn't just a Disney consideration, it is a national direction that needs to be resolved.

There is no way to force companies to reduce profits and bear the costs. They'll just raise prices. That is part of why the focus has been more on tax policy and growing programs, because it is the only way to control who pays.

 

[Gabe1]

There is no way to force companies to reduce profits and bear the costs. They'll just raise prices. That is part of why the focus has been more on tax policy and growing programs, because it is the only way to control who pays.

Indeed there is. A living wage. And they raise prices with or without increasing wages.

 

[ford91exploder]

There is no way to force companies to reduce profits and bear the costs. They'll just raise prices. That is part of why the focus has been more on tax policy and growing programs, because it is the only way to control who pays.

Precisely, Tax policy is the ONLY way to rebalance the economy, A new tax policy however must be far simpler because with current system it's too profitable to game the system. There will need to be substantial carrots and sticks in a new tax policy,

It also needs to emphasize productive use of capital instead of the gambling which currently occurs on Wall St which has moved too far from it's roots as a means of capital formation and public companies should be REQUIRED to pay dividends this would refocus companies on generating sustainable profits instead of managing the stock price.

The most egregious example of the gambling mentality is HFT - companies are now building ethernet switches which can route the stock price multicasts at a hardware level. This serves no useful function for capital formation it's a parasitic activity which costs ordinary investors billions.

We also need to look at corporate governance, Right now US executives are compensated far in excess of their contemporaries in Europe and Asia and the financial results of US companies do not bear out that compensation multiple. European and Asian CEO's are paid on the order of 1-5 million TOTAL.

In fact European and Asian conglomerates are gobbling up US companies and the FIRST thing they dump are the US executive team the simple act of which in many cases pays for the debt service of the merger the company.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Indeed there is. A living wage. And they raise prices with or without increasing wages.

Indeed there is what? A living wage law does not determine the source of the money. Costs are just raised and what was once bought with $8/hour now takes $12/hour. The number is higher but purchasing power is not improved.

 

[ford91exploder]

Indeed there is. A living wage. And they raise prices with or without increasing wages.

Unfortunately all that will happen with 'Living Wage' legislation is companies will dump millions of workers from the payroll and replace them with machines. Sorry to burst your bubble but it's the truth.

Right now there is a company called Momentum Machines which is producing an automatic burger machine

So if you boost the minimum wage to a 'Living Wage' those workers WILL be replaced by capital in the form of machines like THIS which take no sick/vacation/personal time.

 

[ford91exploder]

While that is a very compact version of what happened to Fellowes, they are still alive and well, manufacturing in China. Ultimately the labor costs kinda washed the ooops. I know the Financial Officer, he lives in China more than his home with his family, still. It amazes me continuously what some people and corporations will sacrifice to generate a better bottom line. Not much different than Disney.

As for the rest of all THIS it comes down to two choices, higher wages at some cost to the record breaking earnings or more reliance on government subsidies for the working poor. It is that simple. Either the Corporation ponies up or the government ponies up.

The last recession has put more people in these low level job positions long term. We have more college graduates taking low earning positions than ever before carrying staggering student loans higher than any time in history. The game has changed. Who's pocket it will come out of to off set the working poor dilemma are the only choices. Some of us favor the Government and Tax payers letting Disney off the hook so they can have record breaking earnings and others of us support the mindset that government should be the ones to offset the working poor as we as a nation will not turn our backs on our own. It isn't pretty but ultimately it isn't just a Disney consideration, it is a national direction that needs to be resolved.

The fallacy is that the Government PAYS for ANYTHING, The government provides money taken from TAXPAYERS under the threat of 'Force Majeure' to other individuals and businesses in exchange for votes and campaign contributions respectively.

System is currently broken because we now have more people in wagon than pulling wagon, We need a NEW tax system where EVERYBODY pays so the result of tax policy is immediately evident to everyone.