Wookies, & Rebels, & Droids... OH WHY?! The Anti-SWL in Disneyland Thread

[Rich T]

Also, I wouldn't just ask myself what is going to bring in more guests in the immediate future, but over time. Will people still give a rip about Olaf and Sven in 30 years? Maybe if the studio is still putting out Frozen & Furious 8, but honestly, I think people will tire of it. Another "princess" will come along and oust Anna and Elsa as supreme...then what? I'd much rather build around a more timeless entity (maybe not bluegrass in this example, but Adventure, Frontier, etc) and be able to add IP into it over time.
OT I know, but if I was CEO, I'd give DL what it really needs and that's an Aladdin's Escape from the Cave of Wonders E-Ticket.

But, see, DL's already got the basic themes (Adventure, Frontier) covered. Now it's kind of a choice between B-List general themes or A-List IPs. Sleeping Beauty Castle is still the park icon even though not many folks go ape for Sleeping Beauty these days, and Mr. Toad is popular even though maybe 1% of its riders know the story. If the Frozen ride's well done, it'll still be popular years down the road (look at Roger Rabbit's Car Toon Spin) and Arendelle itself will most likely be considered as just a nice neighborhood of Fantasyland. If the IP is set in an interesting (or at least visually interesting) world, I've got no problem with a few more IP lands. It all depends on the world--Does it work as a theme park land? If the answer is "Yes," I say go for it. Not at the expense of losing Adventureland, Main St., Frontierland, etc., though.

 

[Earl Sweatpants]

It all depends on the world--Does it work as a theme park land? If the answer is "Yes," I say go for it. Not at the expense of losing Adventureland, Main St., Frontierland, etc., though.

I generally agree, but I think that's going to be the issue right there. Eventually, Disneyland will max its space capacity, but its IP acquisitions and successes will continue and then you'll run into the much bigger problem of what gets axed to make way for the new "thing" but also cause the least uproar from longtime fans.

At least Arendelle will be out of the way in TT. I shudder to imagine the backlash they would get if they announced a Frozen "Ice Mountain" overlay of Matterhorn and insert Marshmallow in place of the Snowman. (An idea that I'm sure somehow had at one point)

 

[flynnibus]

What non-IP land would click with the public today *and* fit well into DL?

Isn't this like saying we should only make sequels and there are no new movies to create? You are postuating that you need to pick from an existing list... as opposed to CREATING SOMETHING. Shocker..

 

[Donaldfan1934]

Agreed, but all you see is "destruction" while not acknowledging the rather amazing "construction." The atmosphere is changing. It always has. The park's atmosphere in 2015 (pre SWL) was nothing like it was in 1955 or even 1990. The atmosphere in 2018 will be different-- but that doesn't mean worse. Except for the Main St. horses' situation-- I still feel sorry for them.

1955, 1990, 2015, it was a mostly natural evolution in my eyes.

 

[Donaldfan1934]

Just poking fun!

Pricing, stagnation and poor execution will be the death spiral of Disneyland, not thematic purity.

As long as they make new *good* offerings the masses will show up, pricing them out is a whole different unrelated beast.

Even the biggest insider detractors like Spirit admit the land and attractions will be stellar. Depending on your viewpoint that's a sad reality that it will bring nothing but $$$ and encourage other similar wide sweeping change, as you guys allude to.

The changes may very well be bad for the fans, but they won't be bad for the health of the resort or the profit margin. They also won't be bad in the eyes of the GP (and not the lowest common denominator either).

It's a very small group of specific fans who will be left behind though, I feel for you if you identify with that group. My only advice would be to try to keep an open mind, if you've already decided you will never step in the land you've guaranteed your disappointment.

While I agree that SWL will be stellar in a vacuum ( and at DHS where it fits), I see this as the first step towards Disneyland loosing its identity. Obviously, most of the general public will approve of this, but I feel the more changes like this are made, the more they'll notice.

 

[Stevek]

Also, I wouldn't just ask myself what is going to bring in more guests in the immediate future, but over time. Will people still give a rip about Olaf and Sven in 30 years?

Do people give a rip about Snow White, Mickey, Donald, Goofy, Ariel, Belle...you get where I'm going. People still freak out when they see something like Oswald so yeah, I think folks will still give a rip about the frozen characters in 30 years because kids who are 5 years old now will be sitting down at the TV to watch Frozen with their kids in 20-30 years, much as I did with my daughters for all the older classics like Mermaid, Beauty, Snow White, Pan etc.

 

[Californian Elitist]

What was amazing in 1955 and 1966 wouldn't have the same "Wow" factor today. Disneyland has been copied and borrowed from worldwide in the last several decades, and themed environments without a compelling story to pull folks in are no longer unique. Disney has the world's largest vault of compelling stories to draw from. Why not take advantage of it if the end result is wonderful?

So you're saying no one would be interested in lands that aren't based on IPs?

I don't believe that.

 

[Stevek]

So you're saying no one would be interested in lands that aren't based on IPs?

I don't believe that.

Give me Mystic Point and Grizzly Gulch any day of the week, people would flip...in a good way.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Give me Mystic Point and Grizzly Gulch any day of the week, people would flip...in a good way.

I agree.

I feel some believe IP-based lands are the only things people want because that's all we've been seeing.

 

[180º]

Reality check: I don't even think Bob Iger truly believes IP is the only thing that sells the parks.

Problem is, he's not just trying to sell the parks. He wants everything that's going into the parks to be centered around selling franchises, and all the movies and consumer products that come with them. The bits about making use of Disney's beloved stories etc. is all gravy and of course Bob will say that if he can, and it sounds lovely on social media. But he's also not shy about sharing his business model for the parks as they exist to promote Disney's other products. It's a good business model for the Company. It's a business model that makes Disneyland a commercial, and it's a strictly-enforced rule Iger has ordained for P&R. I hardly think Bob would disagree, as he's very open about his intent for this.

Okay, opinion time. While this rule allows for beautiful, sprawling environments like Cars Land and Star Wars Land, for many of us that doesn't nearly make up for the compromise of practically forbidding original attractions and changing (debatably for the worse) Disneyland's identity. Or the MK's identity or Epcot's identity for that matter.

$.02

 

[Rich T]

Isn't this like saying we should only make sequels and there are no new movies to create? You are postuating that you need to pick from an existing list... as opposed to CREATING SOMETHING. Shocker..

No, I didn't mean that at all. I meant it as a challenge. I'm seriously asking: If you were in charge, could you come up with a Non-IP theme for a land that is not similar to something already in Disneyland *and* would be as popular as Star Wars Land? The answer would be a win-win for everyone. Failure means the stockholders boot you out as CEO.

 

[flynnibus]

No, I didn't mean that at all. I meant it as a challenge. I'm seriously asking: If you were in charge, could you come up with a Non-IP theme for a land that is not similar to something already in Disneyland *and* would be as popular as Star Wars Land? The answer would be a win-win for everyone. Failure means the stockholders boot you out as CEO.

I would defer that to the hundreds of people Disney pays to actually do that kind of work if you let them (aka Mystic Manor). I don't need to solve the problem myself to know the problem is not impossible to solve.

 

[rle4lunch]

You know, even original ideas turn into IP's at some point down the line... just sayin'. Just because they make a sequel, or squeekuel (ah Alvin), doesn't demean the original from becoming a classic, and in-turn an IP. Hell, they were going to make BTMR into a TV show. So that 'original' idea would've been (and is really already) into an IP. Would that have ruined your enjoyment of BTMR?

 

[Rich T]

So you're saying no one would be interested in lands that aren't based on IPs?

I don't believe that.

I'm glad you don't believe that, because I don't either. I'm just saying something as simple and charming as New Orleans Square (minus the yet-to-open Pirates and Mansion) or most of DL's opening lineup would not make a dent in today's public's vacation plans. When we play the Walt card (and we all do), we also have to acknowledge that the world has changed a lot --and not all for the better-- in the past 61 years. Disneyland was Walt's personal toybox, and he did what he wanted with it and created something amazing. The people running the place today have a completely different set of priorities. Given a choice between "built-in-audience" and "unknown" projects, we all know which route they're gonna go. I'm not saying I agree with it.

 

[Rich T]

I would defer that to the hundreds of people Disney pays to actually do that kind of work if you let them (aka Mystic Manor). I don't need to solve the problem myself to know the problem is not impossible to solve.

Okay, don't play the game, but I'm just pointing out it's not that easy-- not even for Imagineers. We all keep pointing to Mystic Manor, but that's not an entirely original idea at all; It's Haunted Mansion re-tooled (brilliantly) for a culture that doesn't share the western take on ghost mythology. And Grizzly Gulch is their Frontierland. I would LOVE to see original ideas for DL resort. That said, the project I'm currently most excited about is the possibility of the Mickey dark ride, and that, of course, is based on one of the biggest IPs in all of pop culture.

 

[Rich T]

Give me Mystic Point and Grizzly Gulch any day of the week, people would flip...in a good way.

I agree... but I as mentioned above, neither are original ideas: Both are based on previous stateside attractions.

 

[Donaldfan1934]

The bits about making use of Disney's beloved stories etc. is all gravy and of course Bob will say that if he can, and it sounds lovely on social media. But he's also not shy about sharing his business model for the parks as they exist to promote Disney's other products. It's a good business model for the Company. It's a business model that makes Disneyland a commercial, and it's a strictly-enforced rule Iger has ordained for P&R. I hardly think Bob would disagree, as he's very open about his intent for this.

Well said. The fact that he's so honest about the blatant greed behind his P&R strategy shows you just how little he thinks of P&R as a creative art form. Not that he's been an ambassador for creativity in general, but at least he tries to pretend that he cares for most other areas of the company creatively. He doesn't care if this short term focused strategy ends up biting P&R in the @$$ in 20-30 years because he'll be gone in two before most of what's currently planned even opens.

 

[Rich T]

While I agree that SWL will be stellar in a vacuum ( and at DHS where it fits), I see this as the first step towards Disneyland loosing its identity. Obviously, most of the general public will approve of this, but I feel the more changes like this are made, the more they'll notice.

What you're not taking into account is that the people down-the-line who would notice will be the people who grew up with and bonded with the Star Wars Land version of DL. Already we have a whole generation who never experienced the No-DCA version of DL. Only one thing could really hurt DL's future: The point where people don't think they've gotten their money's worth of entertainment. Everything else we discuss is completely subjective; What's an atmosphere breaker to us will be cozy familiarity to the next gen.

 

[flynnibus]

Okay, don't play the game, but I'm just pointing out it's not that easy-- not even for Imagineers

If it were easy.. they wouldn't need professionals and Disney wouldn't stand out like they did. The world is not out of ideas - its just the shortcut to say 'nothing will best this franchise over here.. use that' or inferring its the only choice.

Walt employed WRITERS and PRODUCERS when he started his theme park concept for a reason. They knew it would be a creative process where ideas would have to be constructed, flushed out, and brought to life.

Star Wars is bad#$@ no doubt.. but POTC is still older and still relevant in Disney parks. The theme is just part of the product, not the piece that makes it successful (see the various Indiana Jones attractions around the world and their varied success).

 

[Rich T]

If it were easy.. they wouldn't need professionals and Disney wouldn't stand out like they did. The world is not out of ideas - its just the shortcut to say 'nothing will best this franchise over here.. use that' or inferring its the only choice.

Walt employed WRITERS and PRODUCERS when he started his theme park concept for a reason. They knew it would be a creative process where ideas would have to be constructed, flushed out, and brought to life.

Star Wars is bad#$@ no doubt.. but POTC is still older and still relevant in Disney parks. The theme is just part of the product, not the piece that makes it successful (see the various Indiana Jones attractions around the world and their varied success).

And those writers and producers based 99% of their non-short-film work on previously created works. One of the mains reasons Walt chose Snow White as his first feature film was because he felt it wise to go with a "sure thing" when risking so much. In fact, I'd be hard-pressed to think of a successful Disney film that was NOT based on a previously published non-studio property. And that's why so much of DL is based on previous Disney works, from Davy Crockett to Treasure Island.