Wookies, & Rebels, & Droids... OH WHY?! The Anti-SWL in Disneyland Thread

Filby61

Well-Known Member
Fortunately Disneyland is not a living thing so it can't possibly do that.

On the contrary, Disneyland was envisioned as a living, growing thing by the storytellers, showmen and artists who created it -- especially by Walt. A place infused with its own unique personality, its own special charm.

[Disneyland] will be a live, breathing thing... something live, something that could grow, something I could keep plussing with ideas..."
- Walt Disney​

The vision of Disneyland as a platform for promoting brands -- a marketing mall run by Wall Streeters and as soulless as the toy section at Walmart -- is the product of the Iger management regime that you so loyally support and defend.

"Marvel's brand and treasure trove of content will now benefit from our extraordinary reach." "The Star Wars brand, I think, basically doesn't need much help except to, obviously, will I think benefit greatly from the release of a film. We intend in that case to co-brand... Disney-Lucas or Disney-Star Wars in some form, different forms."
- Bob Iger​
 
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Magenta Panther

Well-Known Member
On the contrary, Disneyland was envisioned as a living, growing thing by the storytellers, showmen and artists who created it -- especially by Walt. An place infused with its own unique personality, its own special charm.

[Disneyland] will be a live, breathing thing... something live, something that could grow, something I could keep plussing with ideas..."
- Walt Disney​

The vision of Disneyland as a place for promoting brands -- a marketing mall run by Wall Streeters and as soulless as the toy section at Walmart -- is the product of the Iger management regime that you so loyally support and defend.

"Marvel's brand and treasure trove of content will now benefit from our extraordinary reach." "The Star Wars brand, I think, basically doesn't need much help except to, obviously, will I think benefit greatly from the release of a film. We intend in that case to co-brand... Disney-Lucas or Disney-Star Wars in some form, different forms."
- Bob Iger​

Bob Iger has respect for one thing only: "brands" that generate merchandise sales. PERIOD. He doesn't get Disney, he doesn't respect Disney, he doesn't understand Disney. I don't think he understands real creativity. I think Walt would despise him. God knows I do.
 

Donaldfan1934

Well-Known Member
Not really... It instead creates this generic base so you can hop around..and it suffers both ways. Things that are distinct don't really get their space or setting... They get homogenized.... And you still get the mix and match. FL has common threads... And makes a very pleasant area... But it makes huge compromises to make this generic storybook area.

Disneyland's FL strength is it's pleasant setting... More than it's cohesiveness
I have to strongly, STRONGLY disagree here. Having movie IP or original ideas strung together through the concept of a land is a very point of a Magic Kingdom theme park and Disneyland's Fantasyland is a prime example of that concept. While the stories may take place in different countries, their common DNA and the broad storybook village theme are what help make the land so strong. The execution on the facades alone makes you believe that all these stories could exist in one place. the 1983 Fantasyland reaches near flawless execution that a very select number of Disney themed areas have achieved before or since its creation. I think there's a reason as to why the area had received very little change since then.
 
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Donaldfan1934

Well-Known Member
Bob Iger has respect for one thing only: "brands" that generate merchandise sales. PERIOD. He doesn't get Disney, he doesn't respect Disney, he doesn't understand Disney. I don't think he understands real creativity. I think Walt would despise him. God knows I do.
Excellent summary of Bob Iger and his tenure. Paraphrase what you wrote into the past tense and it would look perfect on his tombstone.
 

Donaldfan1934

Well-Known Member
On the contrary, Disneyland was envisioned as a living, growing thing by the storytellers, showmen and artists who created it -- especially by Walt. A place infused with its own unique personality, its own special charm.

[Disneyland] will be a live, breathing thing... something live, something that could grow, something I could keep plussing with ideas..."
- Walt Disney​

The vision of Disneyland as a platform for promoting brands -- a marketing mall run by Wall Streeters and as soulless as the toy section at Walmart -- is the product of the Iger management regime that you so loyally support and defend.

"Marvel's brand and treasure trove of content will now benefit from our extraordinary reach." "The Star Wars brand, I think, basically doesn't need much help except to, obviously, will I think benefit greatly from the release of a film. We intend in that case to co-brand... Disney-Lucas or Disney-Star Wars in some form, different forms."
- Bob Iger​
Its a damn shame that we have to explain some of the most base level Disneyland knowledge to people on these forums. That co-branding quote sounds like a quote from the Onion satirizing Iger's incompetence rather than an actual quote from him. It seems that the man has become a complete parody of himself.
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I have to strongly, STRONGLY disagree here. Having movie IP or original ideas strung together through the concept of a land is a very point of a Magic Kingdom theme park and Disneyland's Fantasyland is a prime example of that concept. While the stories may take place in different countries, their common DNA and the broad storybook village theme are what help make the land so strong. The execution on the facades alone makes you believe that all these stories could exist in one place. the 1983 Fantasyland reaches near flawless execution that very select number of Disney themed areas have achieved before or since its creation. I think there's a reason as to why the area had received very little change since then.

This.

I'd say the only property that feels a little out of place, to me at least, is Dumbo, specifically when riding Casey. It feels more 20th century American than Bovarian European. Everything else flows nicely. It helps to work in the area, like I did. Everything felt cohesive as an employee and still feels cohesive now as a guest, because, as you stated, it is easy to believe these stories, despite being different, could have happened in the same "town" during the same time period.
 

dweezil78

Well-Known Member
Bob Iger has respect for one thing only: "brands" that generate merchandise sales. PERIOD. He doesn't get Disney, he doesn't respect Disney, he doesn't understand Disney. I don't think he understands real creativity. I think Walt would despise him. God knows I do.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Yes... it's true, any leader of the Disney Company in the year 2016 and beyond needs to be a strong brand person, no doubt. If you're not, the board is going to remove you and replace you with someone who is. This is not the family owned company of the 50s that was around when the park first opened 60 years ago. Duh. But Iger has a TREMENDOUS amount of respect for Disney's history. He understands the importance of Walt and the creative people who built the company into what it is today and has has put a considerable amount of $$$ and resources into making sure Disney Archives have been a top priority for the company and that it's legacy and history continues to be preserved. He was also the one responsible with OK'ing the recent restoration of Walt's office in Burbank, which yes, they do charge $$$ to see which goes right back into covering the cost of the program, maintenance, and the archives. (Before you start to proclaim it was all about the money.)
 

Rich T

Well-Known Member
Sorry, but you're wrong. Yes... it's true, any leader of the Disney Company in the year 2016 and beyond needs to be a strong brand person, no doubt. If you're not, the board is going to remove you and replace you with someone who is. This is not the family owned company of the 50s that was around when the park first opened 60 years ago. Duh. But Iger has a TREMENDOUS amount of respect for Disney's history. He understands the importance of Walt and the creative people who built the company into what it is today and has has put a considerable amount of $$$ and resources into making sure Disney Archives have been a top priority for the company and that it's legacy and history continues to be preserved. He was also the one responsible with OK'ing the recent restoration of Walt's office in Burbank, which yes, they do charge $$$ to see which goes right back into covering the cost of the program, maintenance, and the archives. (Before you start to proclaim it was all about the money.)
And remember Iger was the one who insisted Florida's New Fantasyland have something besides Princesses. I don't agree with everything Iger's done (especially My Magic +), but he's grown Disney into an unbelievably vast entertainment powerhouse. Not everything's perfect, but things could be worse.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
I have to strongly, STRONGLY disagree here. Having movie IP or original ideas strung together through the concept of a land is a very point of a Magic Kingdom theme park and Disneyland's Fantasyland is a prime example of that concept

Uhh.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

You are taking the original.. and then saying its correct.. because it's itself.

While the stories may take place in different countries, their common DNA and the broad storybook village theme are what help make the land so strong

There is no storybook village connecting theme in Dumbo.. Pinnochico.. Peter Pan.. Alice.. Casey Jr.. IASW.. Tea Party.. Mr Toad... This is just the homogenization that they worked in to make the land work together as a common setting for most of it. It's heavy compromises, that work because the resulting environment is pleasing.. not that it's necessarily story or setting cohesive. There is little about Peter Pan's exterior that says 'Peter pan!! london!! nevernever land'. The details are there, but if you've never seen it before.. and there were no sign.. would it resonate to you? Take away the stage above the door at Pinochico and what do you have?

DL FL works very well together... the execution is great. But it's more about itself, then it is about place making for these attractions. It's the environment, not commonality, that makes FL work. At the end of the day, they took fiction tales whose really only common thread is they were made into Disney movies. FL blurs the edges of each to make a setting that works to work each in.

It's a great example of bringing disparate things to a homogenized center.. and that comes with compromises. An entire land to a concept has advantages that are being ignored here. Bugsland is a great example of placemaking details that wouldn't make sense if you didn't have a shared setting. Same thing with many of the details in carsland.. they just don't make sense at that scale and breadth if you don't have the land be part of the theme itself.

I can understand the idea of saying 'do we want to dedicate that much to this particular IP' - but given the list of candidates.. SW would be on most people's shortlist for IPs that have both breadth and longevity.
 

180º

Well-Known Member
Not really... It instead creates this generic base so you can hop around..and it suffers both ways. Things that are distinct don't really get their space or setting... They get homogenized.... And you still get the mix and match. FL has common threads... And makes a very pleasant area... But it makes huge compromises to make this generic storybook area.

Disneyland's FL strength is it's pleasant setting... More than it's cohesiveness
Like you, I also see great potential in lands like WWOHP and Cars Land, which emphasize continuity to near perfection, an effect which Fantasyland lacks. And I also agree that Fantasyland has a very different kind of appeal. As you said,
Disneyland's FL strength is it's pleasant setting... More than it's cohesiveness
More than that, I think Fantasyland is appealing for its unspecificity. Rather than relying on story and continuity as Cars Land does, it relies on symbolism and iconography to give an impression. We throw around the word "theme" but Cars Land is not really a thematic land. In literary terms (theme is notoriously hard to describe, so I'll use this definition from literarydevices.com) "Theme is defined as a main idea or an underlying meaning of a literary work that may be stated directly or indirectly."

Something like Cars Land or WWOHP, even though it has a more concrete and cohesive story, doesn't mean it states the theme any more directly than Fantasyland. Fantasyland has no plot tying it together but leaves the guest with a pretty solid idea of what it stands for. And then think about Future World, which stated its theme strongly, directly, over and over again, though it's seldom celebrated for being a "themed" land. Then, of course, cohesive, plot-driven lands like Cars and Potter and Star Wars are a significant, if natural evolution. Bad or good, depending on how you see it. I just see it as different, and bad or good depending on the application.

Anyway, just my ponderings on the subject.
 
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Phroobar

Well-Known Member
On the contrary, Disneyland was envisioned as a living, growing thing by the storytellers, showmen and artists who created it -- especially by Walt. A place infused with its own unique personality, its own special charm.

[Disneyland] will be a live, breathing thing... something live, something that could grow, something I could keep plussing with ideas..."
- Walt Disney​

The vision of Disneyland as a platform for promoting brands -- a marketing mall run by Wall Streeters and as soulless as the toy section at Walmart -- is the product of the Iger management regime that you so loyally support and defend.

"Marvel's brand and treasure trove of content will now benefit from our extraordinary reach." "The Star Wars brand, I think, basically doesn't need much help except to, obviously, will I think benefit greatly from the release of a film. We intend in that case to co-brand... Disney-Lucas or Disney-Star Wars in some form, different forms."
- Bob Iger​
No matter how much someone wishes an inanimate object to be alive, it will never be alive. To believe that is possible is childish.
 

dweezil78

Well-Known Member
The vision of Disneyland as a platform for promoting brands -- a marketing mall run by Wall Streeters and as soulless as the toy section at Walmart -- is the product of the Iger management regime that you so loyally support and defend.

You are so right. Damn them and their brands!!!

(And I didn't even go for most of the really easy ones around Tomorrowland.)

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Magenta Panther

Well-Known Member
Sorry, but you're wrong. Yes... it's true, any leader of the Disney Company in the year 2016 and beyond needs to be a strong brand person, no doubt. If you're not, the board is going to remove you and replace you with someone who is. This is not the family owned company of the 50s that was around when the park first opened 60 years ago. Duh. But Iger has a TREMENDOUS amount of respect for Disney's history. He understands the importance of Walt and the creative people who built the company into what it is today and has has put a considerable amount of $$$ and resources into making sure Disney Archives have been a top priority for the company and that it's legacy and history continues to be preserved. He was also the one responsible with OK'ing the recent restoration of Walt's office in Burbank, which yes, they do charge $$$ to see which goes right back into covering the cost of the program, maintenance, and the archives. (Before you start to proclaim it was all about the money.)

B.S., dude. Iger "restored" Walt's office? He removed it from One Man's Dream because he wants to turn THAT into an ad venue for brands, especially the ones he purchased, and then he puts Walt's office where the public can't see it. Wow, what a sweetheart!

And the fact that the current Disney BOD would replace a creative guy with another brands-oriented guy hardly sells your contention that Iger has been good for the company. And if he had such respect for the company legacy, how come he feels the need to buy off-studio IP and stick them in the parks, rather than mine that legacy and install a, oh I don't know, Mary Poppins attraction, or one based on Fantasia, or why didn't he leave the Art of Animation alone (since animation is, you know, part of the Disney company's "legacy and history") or at least stop running movie ads in One Man's Dream, which is supposed to be about the company's founder? So much for his respect for Disney's history!

Get real.
 

dweezil78

Well-Known Member
B.S., dude. Iger "restored" Walt's office? He removed it from One Man's Dream because he wants to turn THAT into an ad venue for brands, especially the ones he purchased, and then he puts Walt's office where the public can't see it. Wow, what a sweetheart!

And the fact that the current Disney BOD would replace a creative guy with another brands-oriented guy hardly sells your contention that Iger has been good for the company. And if he had such respect for the company legacy, how come he feels the need to buy off-studio IP and stick them in the parks, rather than mine that legacy and install a, oh I don't know, Mary Poppins attraction, or one based on Fantasia, or why didn't he leave the Art of Animation alone (since animation is, you know, part of the Disney company's "legacy and history") or at least stop running movie ads in One Man's Dream, which is supposed to be about the company's founder? So much for his respect for Disney's history!

Get real.

You seem to want to have your cake and eat it too. Yes, Iger greenlit the restoration (quotes not needed) of Walt's office which was far more than that little sub-section seen on One Man's Dream tucked away in the back of a theme park where it clearly belongs more than its original location, you know, where Walt worked every day. It is multiple rooms -- many of which had to be completely rebuilt and reconstructed. It was a pretty significant project and labor of love for the Archives staff and the public CAN see it.

I'm also very sorry that you are bummed that Bob Iger is not having attractions made for movies that came out in the 40s and 60s (I'm sure the gang at WDI is crushed as well) and that Fantasmic, which operates at three parks around the world, is not enough to satisfy your Fantasia craving.
 

Donaldfan1934

Well-Known Member
This.

I'd say the only property that feels a little out of place, to me at least, is Dumbo, specifically when riding Casey. It feels more 20th century American than Bovarian European. Everything else flows nicely. It helps to work in the area, like I did. Everything felt cohesive as an employee and still feels cohesive now as a guest, because, as you stated, it is easy to believe these stories, despite being different, could have happened in the same "town" during the same time period.
Agreed. If Discovery Bay came into fruition, they would've also done a circus area for Dumbo and Casey much like what was eventually done at WDW, but with a dark ride.
 

Donaldfan1934

Well-Known Member
I'm also very sorry that you are bummed that Bob Iger is not having attractions made for movies that came out in the 40s and 60s (I'm sure the gang at WDI is crushed as well) and that Fantasmic, which operates at three parks around the world, is not enough to satisfy your Fantasia craving.
Fantasmic! is not based on any one movie specifically, so your argument for it being "enough to satisfy your Fantasia craving" is invalid.
 

Donaldfan1934

Well-Known Member
Uhh.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

You are taking the original.. and then saying its correct.. because it's itself.



There is no storybook village connecting theme in Dumbo.. Pinnochico.. Peter Pan.. Alice.. Casey Jr.. IASW.. Tea Party.. Mr Toad... This is just the homogenization that they worked in to make the land work together as a common setting for most of it. It's heavy compromises, that work because the resulting environment is pleasing.. not that it's necessarily story or setting cohesive. There is little about Peter Pan's exterior that says 'Peter pan!! london!! nevernever land'. The details are there, but if you've never seen it before.. and there were no sign.. would it resonate to you? Take away the stage above the door at Pinochico and what do you have?

DL FL works very well together... the execution is great. But it's more about itself, then it is about place making for these attractions. It's the environment, not commonality, that makes FL work. At the end of the day, they took fiction tales whose really only common thread is they were made into Disney movies. FL blurs the edges of each to make a setting that works to work each in.

It's a great example of bringing disparate things to a homogenized center.. and that comes with compromises. An entire land to a concept has advantages that are being ignored here. Bugsland is a great example of placemaking details that wouldn't make sense if you didn't have a shared setting. Same thing with many of the details in carsland.. they just don't make sense at that scale and breadth if you don't have the land be part of the theme itself.

I can understand the idea of saying 'do we want to dedicate that much to this particular IP' - but given the list of candidates.. SW would be on most people's shortlist for IPs that have both breadth and longevity.
Ok, starting off with a statement may have come of circular, but let me phrase it this way. How can we all agree that Disneyland Park's basic concept is the pinnacle of themed entertainment we feel that bringing disparate things to a homogenized center, the premise that all of the park's areas opperate upon to some extent, is automatically flawed? That is why I started off my argument with a statement because it was out of the assumption that DL's way of doing things was generally approved of here. If you take Fantasyland as literally as you are, then you can't defend any of the land's cohessisiveness (something that has been important to theme parks since Walt and the Gen. 1 Imagineers pretty much invented the medium) except maybe Main Street and that's a big maybe.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Ok, starting off with a statement may have come of circular, but let me phrase it this way. How can we all agree that Disneyland Park's basic concept is the pinnacle of themed entertainment we feel that bringing disparate things to a homogenized center, the premise that all of the park's areas opperate upon to some extent, is automatically flawed?

No, because you take the next logical fallacy that this model of homogenization is the definition of how theme should be measured because it's what has worked in the past. The idea of success, does not infer exclusive or being the pinnacle. The outcome of the product working... does not in itself make any test = true.

My point about FL was in getting this homogenized experience, we actually LOST some things, that if done differently, could be very desirable (example: radiator springs). The idea that FL has been deemed a model of desire does not make it equal any test.. it just means it works as a whole. So when we say its cohesive.. it can be to ITSELF, while not necessarily bringing the value of each of the pieces it includes. TL;DR - when you take the middle, you can lose the edge details. So taking the middle is not the ONLY formula to consider.

What people often forget about the theme park design is success is not always about making two things fit together, but is often about making sure something doesn't DETRACT from the other. Success there, means people willingly accept disparate things together, because their differences were not enough to derail the intended result. Success there does not make those two thing magically 'cohesive' - it just means the design overcame those potential pitfalls that could lead to confusion or distraction.

Let's be honest.. the thing that holds FL together more than anything is that they are all Disney's period fantasy animated films. The rest is making sure we ebb and flow through those different topics without being confused or derailed (too much) by what we see.

Setting up the Dumbo circus in the castle courtyard would not work... but if we avoid those detracting, jarring elements... we achieve a point where people accept Dumbo in the land even tho it really has no real place setting, time, or story connection with it's neighbors.

You achieve a point where the element doesn't really fit strict definitions of place, time, setting, etc.. but people don't care. The manipulation of the guest experience is not about getting every point to be 100% accurate, but to manipulate to get them into the groove and focus on what you want them to focus on. We can ignore that black tile ceiling because we got them not just looking where we want, but THINKING about what we want and controlling their focus, not just line of sight.

All of this is a long way of saying.. just because FL works, doesn't necessarily mean all of its elements are cohesive.. or some other test.. simply that we achieved a tipping point to people being in favor of the result.

It's why most people don't care about the matterhorn dominating TL's skyline, or the lagoon itself... the sum results where they are happy with it.
 

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