Wish (Walt Disney Animation - November 2023)

[Sir_Cliff]

Considering that we've gone into the realm of political philosophy in our discussion, I think we've perhaps gone off the deep end in our thoughts about Wish in a way that the creators didn't anticipate. Should they have anticipated this kind of analysis? Perhaps. Disney often gets closer scrutiny than their competitors.

But it occurred to me in the car today when Sara Bareilles' cover of When You Wish Upon a Star came on that I'm certain the creators didn't expect people to struggle with identifying Magnifico as a villain. He's in direct violation of what is essentially the Disney anthem:

"If your heart is in your dream
No request is too extreme
When you wish upon a star
As dreamers do"

Magnifico, on the other hand, labels the vast majority of the wishes as too extreme, even ones that don't strike us as particularly outlandish. It's only when dragging our real world baggage into frame that we as viewers get confused.

I think the reason political philosophy has to come into it to some extent is that the most interesting aspect of the story that I think both of us identified is the warning against authoritarianism. The other aspect that invites such reflection is what you have to accept for the story to be compelling.

Thinking about the Pinocchio example you raised, in that film you just have to accept that Geppetto earned the ability to make a wish as he had been so kind and selfless through his life but that Pinocchio can only become truly human by similarly demonstrating his strength of character. The morality around being considerate and at times selfless for the benefit of others is easy for almost anyone to understand and accept.

For Wish, you have to accept that all the benefits the come from living in Rosas are ultimately hollow if you aren't free to pursue your one deepest desire. Neither peace, nor health, nor prosperity compensates for not having that one freedom and having that one freedom is worth giving up all the rest. I think that premise naturally invites the viewer to question whether you really believe that and I think it's why for at least some viewers there is ambiguity about Magnifico's villainy and Asha's heroism.

Of course, it could also just be bad writing! I can't think of another Disney film where the message is so ambiguous.

 

[drnilescrane]

Well, the other shoe dropped today. I've heard from friend at the studio that layoffs have started and the untitled 2024 Disney Animation film might have been put on hiatus. (No big loss, it was more of the same from Jen Lee)

If that's the case, it's unknown what will be released (maybe Elio will be brought back to 2024, maybe push Inside Out 2?), but I think the plan is to try and get Zootopia 2 for 2025 and Frozen 3 for 2026/27. That's still a pretty aggressive timeline for Zootopia which only had its first internal screening a few months ago. They typically have about 8 during production before release, once a quarter.

It seems like layoffs have started for the animation crew as there might be nothing for them to do in the next 12 months. When production does start up again, expect WDAS Vancouver to take on more of the load. It's just the way the world is now.

In my opinion this is all good news as it's an admission the status quo is not working. Yes people will have to move around but it's normal for the industry.

2024 WDAS Title is officially off the calendar per Scott Gustin

 

[celluloid]

A whole poop sequence even, plus Looney Tunes style violence. Migration might be perfectly entertaining (plenty of Illumination's stuff is), but I generally expect more than that out of Disney.

A movie about birds. A poop joke is an obvious. Disney did a nice splat the end on their short about birds.
How about a snow man speaking about how turtles breathe out of their butt?

Or a goat that found things with its butt?

Wearing your underwear inside out, front and back?

Unfortunately Disney's modern sensibilities are about the same.

 

[LittleBuford]

A movie about birds. A poop joke is an obvious. Disney did a nice splat the end on their short about birds.
How about a snow man speaking about how turtles breathe out of their butt?

Or a goat that found things with its butt?

Wearing your underwear inside out, front and back?

Unfortunately Disney's modern sensibilities are about the same.

A bit of toilet humour, whether by Disney or another studio, never hurt anyone. Kids (and some of us adults) find it funny, and it's harmless.

Jokes about underwear aren't all that new:

 

[celluloid]

A bit of toilet humour, whether by Disney or another studio, never hurt anyone. Kids (and some of us adults) find it funny, and it's harmless.

Jokes about underwear aren't all that new:

Agreed. I was just pointing out how it is to be expected. If you find it a turnoff of Illumination, than one is not paying attention. Good example.

And has been around as long as animation. Showing bloomers, and slapstick is a hallmark of Disney toons back to original Mickey and prior.

 

[brideck]

A movie about birds. A poop joke is an obvious. Disney did a nice splat the end on their short about birds.
How about a snow man speaking about how turtles breathe out of their butt?

Or a goat that found things with its butt?

Wearing your underwear inside out, front and back?

Unfortunately Disney's modern sensibilities are about the same.

Sorry, I wasn't being clear. My higher expectations for Disney aren't about the presence/absence of poop jokes and the like, it was about Disney animation being more than just entertaining. That more can take a lot of forms -- higher quality music, heartwarming/soul-crushing moments, telling a story with more substance, etc. I've seen most of them and I'd have to stretch to think of an Illumination movie that's surpassed being just entertaining for me.

Obviously, there's a long and rich tradition of gag cartooning under the Disney banner, some of which is even still funny today.

 

[TsWade2]

2024 WDAS Title is officially off the calendar per Scott Gustin

Maybe it’s for the best! Because I can’t stand seeing Disney animated movies get flopped! Also, I rather be optimistic that Wish will do well on Disney+ then hearing you guys being negative and pessimistic! You guys have my pity!

P.S. Is it wrong that I blame the writers and actors strike?

 

[celluloid]

Sorry, I wasn't being clear. My higher expectations for Disney aren't about the presence/absence of poop jokes and the like, it was about Disney animation being more than just entertaining. That more can take a lot of forms -- higher quality music, heartwarming/soul-crushing moments, telling a story with more substance, etc. I've seen most of them and I'd have to stretch to think of an Illumination movie that's surpassed being just entertaining for me.

Obviously, there's a long and rich tradition of gag cartooning under the Disney banner, some of which is even still funny today.

I know it is hard to see because of how long in the tooth it has become, but I feel the first Despicable Me had so much heart it was pretty close to that to me and I think it has been chasing that high ever since.

That being said yes, I agree that most animation is not that anymore. Pixar tried a bit I think with Elemental, but it was a bit too melancholy for me and a mix of that and abstract for most. I think Soul was really close to being there, but again, just a bit too abstract and lacked entertainment for many.

Illumination is also a young company that came into the world around the time Disney Animation also started giving up with Pixar and their Animation choices changed.

I think Disney kind of ended this high with Big Hero Six or Coco, but some really liked Moana and years later Ecanto/Frozen 2.

Unfortunately, the era of Disney is in a really weird place here too.

The good news is it seems that The Boy and The Heron is proving to be fairly mainstream in showing that it can still be done. Hand drawn to boot!

 

[Miss Rori]

That being said yes, I agree that most animation is not that anymore. Pixar tried a bit I think with Elemental, but it was a bit too melancholy for me and a mix of that and abstract for most. I think Soul was really close to being there, but again, just a bit too abstract and lacked entertainment for many.

Listening to the B.O. Boys podcast (which looks at box office figures), there was a bit of arguing in the latest episode about whether, at this point, Pixar movies only appeal to maudlin 40-something men or not. Illumination has certainly cornered the market on kid-appealing comedy animation, but yeah, it would be nice if they could do something like the original Despicable Me again. I do think it's telling how well (relatively speaking of course) The Boy and the Heron has performed in the United States; fewer people have seen it than Wish but they seem to cherish it a lot more. Indeed, it's one of those less-reported on stories of recent years -- anime's as popular as it's ever been here, and all sorts of stories are turning up.

 

[celluloid]

Listening to the B.O. Boys podcast (which looks at box office figures), there was a bit of arguing in the latest episode about whether, at this point, Pixar movies only appeal to maudlin 40-something men or not. Illumination has certainly cornered the market on kid-appealing comedy animation, but yeah, it would be nice if they could do something like the original Despicable Me again. I do think it's telling how well (relatively speaking of course) The Boy and the Heron has performed in the United States; fewer people have seen it than Wish but they seem to cherish it a lot more. Indeed, it's one of those less-reported on stories of recent years -- anime's as popular as it's ever been here, and all sorts of stories are turning up.

Well said. I appreciate the conversation. Here is hoping quality balances out sooner than later. I have a good feeling about it as both major studios continue to find it and I think anime is becoming more fluent and Japanese animation is not seen as non fluent Dragonball or Pokemon styles anymore.

 

[TP2000]

2024 WDAS Title is officially off the calendar per Scott Gustin

That very light theatrical calendar for 2024 would seem to indicate a company that is heavily in retrenchment mode.

Retrench, rethink, relaunch.

And hope to God when you come out the other side in 2025, most consumers forgive you for whatever the hell 2022-2023 was.

 

[celluloid]

That very light theatrical calendar for 2024 would seem to indicate a company that is heavily in retrenchment mode.

Retrench, rethink, relaunch.

And hope to God when you come out the other side in 2025, most consumers forgive you for whatever the hell 2022-2023 was.

It has to be this. They are fine letting Dreamworks and Illumination take 2024. Granted these are sequel installments, but that puts it about on par with what Pixar has and that is not until June.
Inside Out was so well liked way back in 2015, it is going to be interesting to see if people are still willing to see it in the mass they want and if the theme of puberty is something they trust Disney to tackle.

 

[Disney Irish]

It has to be this. They are fine letting Dreamworks and Illumination take 2024. Granted these are sequel installments, but that puts it about on par with what Pixar has and that is not until June.
Inside Out was so well liked way back in 2015, it is going to be interesting to see if people are still willing to see it in the mass they want and if the theme of puberty is something they trust Disney to tackle.

One has to wonder at what point Comcast just buys out the rest of Illumination and then merges Dreamworks and Illumination.

 

[celluloid]

One has to wonder at what point Comcast just buys out the rest of Illumination and then merges Dreamworks and Illumination.

Chris M I think enjoys the situation it is right now. I think of Shrek 5 works out to the hit they want, you will see this to some degree.

 

[Disney Irish]

Chris M I think enjoys the situation it is right now. I think of Shrek 5 works out to the hit they want, you will see this to some degree.

He is in his mid-60s, and as I recall has hinted at retirement in the past. So I wouldn't be surprised if it happens sooner rather than later, but for sure think it'll happen eventually.

 

[celluloid]

He is in his mid-60s, and as I recall has hinted at retirement in the past. So I wouldn't be surprised if it happens sooner rather than later, but for sure think it'll happen eventually.

The rich and happy live a long time, and don't like to retire when they enjoy what they do, but yeah, like I said, expect Shrek 5 timeline for that kind of thing rebooting that has been a passion project.

 

[Miss Rori]

Well said. I appreciate the conversation. Here is hoping quality balances out sooner than later. I have a good feeling about it as both major studios continue to find it and I think anime is becoming more fluent and Japanese animation is not seen as non fluent Dragonball or Pokemon styles anymore.

I think you mean "fluid" there but that's okay. On the other hand Americans are becoming more "fluent" in appreciating the style

Since it's about to leave my local five-plex, I saw Godzilla Minus One last night. I forgot that Toho made that movie to mark the 70th anniversary of Godzilla films, and it certainly is a worthy marker. (It's amazing how big it felt even in the "shoebox" auditorium it was playing in, though our excellent sound system helped!)

I think that's one of the more frustrating things about the whole Wish debacle -- WDAS had one job: make a truly exceptional film that spoke to all the things the company has done well over the years in this particular medium. They could have directly adapted a fairy or folktale they hadn't covered before (maybe from a culture they haven't yet explored), brought in A-list talent, and embellished the basic bones with rounded characterizations, beautiful art, and engaging songs. Instead, as at least one critic suggested, they just did Mad Libs with a checklist of Disney tropes and in a watered-down form at that.

 

[brideck]

For what little it's worth, Wish (14) is holding on to as many screenings at my market's AMCs as Trolls (13) is for this coming weekend. Of course, with all of the new wide releases this weekend (5!) that only makes it the movie with the 10th most screenings. Then on Christmas day, when 3 more new movies come out, the number of screenings gets slashed in half again (6). For context, a full screen at each theater here would result in 22-24 screenings.

There's not much arriving in theaters after that, so it might hang around in an extremely limited capacity until Soul hits screens in January, but it's pretty much done. There are just too many movies jockeying for position to spare the screens.

 

[BuddyThomas]

Wish Caramel Glitter Popcorn - at Regal Times Square

 

[DisneyHead123]

Wonka has a surprising number of similar plot beats and characters with Wish (the protagonist in both even has to swim back to the city at one point!), and both rely heavily on shout-outs to well-known works but boy oh boy does it do more to examine what the characters specifically want and strive for, and how they're changed by their experiences with others. One thing striking about Wish's plot is how there don't seem to be any strong relationships between characters that directly affect what happens beyond the setup of Asha wanting Sabino's wish granted, and even then, there's not much of a payoff to it. (Can't remember who asked it elsewhere, but shouldn't Sabino have led the crowd in wishing/singing away Magnifico? And what was Sakina's wish anyway?) Comparing it to Wonka's relationships with the orphan Noodle and the other boarding house prisoners, and how those affect how he goes about pursuing his dream, there's no comparison.

Spoiler: Spoilers for both films

The payoff of Sabino's wish is the post-credits gag involving "When You Wish Upon a Star". By comparison, "Pure Imagination", which is threaded into the Wonka underscore the way "When..." is threaded into Wish, is finally sung in the denouement (with mostly new lyrics) first as Wonka reunites Noodle with her mother, who turns out to be a librarian (and Noodle dreamed of having a family who lived in a house full of books!), and then continues as Wonka buys an old castle and converts it into the factory we know. The difference in dramatics is vast.

That’s interesting… I haven’t seen Wonka but I imagine another similar aspect is that the character development is a little trickier in a world that doesn’t actually exist anywhere (as opposed to a movie like Turning Red, where there’s a preexisting familiarity with people who grew up during that era, are familiar with Asian culture, etc.) Thinking back to a movie like Shrek, I wonder if it works better to kinda “go big” on character personalities in that situation, vs. the kind of sweet but nondescript characters in Wish.