Wilderness Lodge DVC additions - Copper Creek Villas & Cabins

[GoofGoof]

@faye meyers, @cspencer96, @GoofGoof, @ISTCNavigator57, @note2001, @LAKid53 ~

The outside refurbishment of the lodge has been going on for several months. When I booked last fall for my stay at the end of January, the courtyard view rooms were cheaper than the woods view that I normally book. Thinking perhaps it was a mistake of some sort, I booked the courtyard view. When we arrived, I learned why the courtyard view was discounted ~ our room overlooked all the scaffolding.

It makes sense that they would discount the rooms overlooking the construction. Sounds like it's being handled OK. It's a little odd they didn't tell you or the other poster that construction work was going to be going on. I got a letter last month telling me work would be going on at Beach Club during my stay in August. It didn't give specific details, but was more of a general heads up. Probably so people could consider switching their reservation if they wanted to avoid construction.

 

[ToTBellHop]

No but it's an all too typical experience at WDW today, The attitude hey if you don't like it there are 10 more to replace your business so SIERRA-TANGO-FOXTROT-UNIFORM.

Sad, but unfortunately I do hear of things like this increasingly. We have been fortunate with service at WL, thankfully. Had a terrible time at the Contemporary though.

 

[Unplugged]

IMHO, I think the monorail should stop at all the resorts and then take guests to the parks. Expensive to expand? Yes. But it would reduce the congestion, especially at DTD in the evening. I believe it was a bus driver (those bastions of Disney info) who told me that eventually the bus station at Marketplace will close once the new one near Westside opens.

The Marketplace closure is correct according to one of the last plans we saw on this site. (Sorry, you'll have to find that link yourself.) There is to be a big new beautiful bus terminal between the new parking structures. This is one of he reasons they put the walkway in across the water from the Lego Store to Rainforest. It's a shortcut. The space currently occupied by the Marketplace bus terminal will become another set of shops. Personally, after seeing how the PI renovations have gone, I'm betting they may rip down the Marketplace buildings and build anew. Though knowing TDO, they will most likely limit their big budget to the new construction and leave it alone. Those are some OLD buildings.

There is/was/has_been a bus stop at the Westend. It's well past HoB & Cirque. Way too far out there and wasn't used for many years as it's popularity wavered and dropped shortly after it opened (with the Westside).

Don't count on any monorail expansion for less expensive resorts that already require a bus driving around it to get the people. They are too spread out to make adding a mass transit train/monorail practical by any means.

 

[LAKid53]

@faye meyers, @cspencer96, @GoofGoof, @ISTCNavigator57, @note2001, @LAKid53 ~

The outside refurbishment of the lodge has been going on for several months. When I booked last fall for my stay at the end of January, the courtyard view rooms were cheaper than the woods view that I normally book. Thinking perhaps it was a mistake of some sort, I booked the courtyard view. When we arrived, I learned why the courtyard view was discounted ~ our room overlooked all the scaffolding.

Aren't the Courtyard view rooms normally cheaper than the Woods view rooms? In a few years, the Woods view will be truly a forest view......you will be able to hear the water parade but not see it from your balcony.

 

[ford91exploder]

That said, if you pay extra for a view, it is unreasonable to offer you a view of scaffolding. Those rooms should have been switched to Standard View (or removed from availability until the work is done if noise would be excessive). They stopped selling the rooms at Poly facing the construction mess.

[/SARC]
It's the fiduciary duty of TWDC to maximize return from all company assets for the benefit of the shareholders of TWDC, It's an unfortunate reality that Guests may be inconvenienced during construction however that in no way obligates TWDC to compensate for the inconvenience as the guest is always free to seek lodging elsewhere as there are many other guests who would choose to stay in the hotel in its current condition. After all Disney is a Business and our customer is Wall Street"
[/SARCOFF]

 

[LAKid53]

[/SARC]
It's the fiduciary duty of TWDC to maximize return from all company assets for the benefit of the shareholders of TWDC, It's an unfortunate reality that Guests may be inconvenienced during construction however that in no way obligates TWDC to compensate for the inconvenience as the guest is always free to seek lodging elsewhere as there are many other guests who would choose to stay in the hotel in its current condition. After all Disney is a Business and our customer is Wall Street"
[/SARCOFF]

Sarcastic, but sadly true. Customer service is a four letter word to Wall Street types. Perhaps if we stopped referring to ourselves as guests and instead we called ourselves stakeholders. They'd understand that.

 

[Tuvalu]

Aren't the Courtyard view rooms normally cheaper than the Woods view rooms? In a few years, the Woods view will be truly a forest view......you will be able to hear the water parade but not see it from your balcony.

No. The categories in order of cost:
Standard
Woods
Woods Bunk
Courtyard
Courtyard Bunk
Club
Suite

 

[GoofGoof]

[/SARC]
It's the fiduciary duty of TWDC to maximize return from all company assets for the benefit of the shareholders of TWDC, It's an unfortunate reality that Guests may be inconvenienced during construction however that in no way obligates TWDC to compensate for the inconvenience as the guest is always free to seek lodging elsewhere as there are many other guests who would choose to stay in the hotel in its current condition. After all Disney is a Business and our customer is Wall Street"
[/SARCOFF]

Go back and read the post by @Tuvalu. They are discounting the rooms with views of construction.

Maybe they aren't running TWDC like a business anymore

 

[ford91exploder]

Go back and read the post by @Tuvalu. They are discounting the rooms with views of construction.

Maybe they aren't running TWDC like a business anymore

Someone is going to be in trouble for discounting...

 

[GoofGoof]

Someone is going to be in trouble for discounting...

Nah, even at a discount there is still a pretty healthy markup...plus they can pass the cost of the work on to DVC now

 

[LAKid53]

No. The categories in order of cost:
Standard
Woods
Woods Bunk
Courtyard
Courtyard Bunk
Club
Suite

IMHO, I think a Woods view to be a higher category than Courtyard (assuming that means pool at WL). And quieter.

 

[Rodan75]

I always find the DVC discussions to be fascinating. There is so much emotion on something that is so purely a business model. I normally stripe away some of the emotion and doom and gloom from the discussion and financial analysis and I come away with one very unimpeachable fact from @ParentsOf4 and @WDW1974. DVC sales have created a revenue addiction for the company, that addiction must be met each and every annual sales cycle.

Currently the only way to keep that 1st year sales revenue either flat or growing is to create more DVC rooms to sell. And folks aren't interested in buying more of the same, otherwise they would have only kept expanding over at OKW, they want choice. And so to feed the addiction they need to keep building. Should this revenue stream slow or stop, then we are going to get hit a major wall street revenue miss for the Parks & Rec division...and there is no way Iger would allow that to happen. I haven't seen any commentary from TWDC that would imply or signal to the banks that they see timeshare sales slowing.

From a purely 'business' focus, they have become addicted and there is no way to cheaply or quickly replace DVC sales revenue with anything else and that over the next 4-10 years does present a problem.

 

[Unplugged]

From a purely 'business' focus, they have become addicted and there is no way to cheaply or quickly replace DVC sales revenue with anything else and that over the next 4-10 years does present a problem.

Good points. DVC only has to keep building until they have 40 properties or so and the early contracts start to end. They will then either renew contracts with sales of extensions or tear down and build anew with all new contracts. Knowing Disney's lack of interest in tear down. There will be new contracts at substantially higher prices for properties that are neither new or exciting. But I can ensure it will not be a loss of income for Disney as renew contracts will not require new construction.

 

[twebber55]

I always find the DVC discussions to be fascinating. There is so much emotion on something that is so purely a business model. I normally stripe away some of the emotion and doom and gloom from the discussion and financial analysis and I come away with one very unimpeachable fact from @ParentsOf4 and @WDW1974. DVC sales have created a revenue addiction for the company, that addiction must be met each and every annual sales cycle.

Currently the only way to keep that 1st year sales revenue either flat or growing is to create more DVC rooms to sell. And folks aren't interested in buying more of the same, otherwise they would have only kept expanding over at OKW, they want choice. And so to feed the addiction they need to keep building. Should this revenue stream slow or stop, then we are going to get hit a major wall street revenue miss for the Parks & Rec division...and there is no way Iger would allow that to happen. I haven't seen any commentary from TWDC that would imply or signal to the banks that they see timeshare sales slowing.

From a purely 'business' focus, they have become addicted and there is no way to cheaply or quickly replace DVC sales revenue with anything else and that over the next 4-10 years does present a problem.

so my question is does Disney continue to build/repurpose at wdw or will they venture off site and build elsewhere, because you re exactly right..they have to (in their eyes) keep selling DVC to maintain profit but they re running out of places at wdw

 

[RandomLurker]

Again - I do not choose to post under most conditions.... it just brings hate mail.

There IS one significant reason why WDW MUST do this (at least at WL and a number of other Deluxe's)....

They can't rent the rooms. Occupancy has been ROTTEN for a good two to three years. Like us - GO there.... notice how the place looks fairly empty? The restaurant staff has been complaining about this for YEARS.... it's just "slow", except for holidays and weekends.

EVERYONE can argue why. Price too high? Not "worth it" ? Who cares - they can't rent 'em without a perpetual 30-35% discount. Everyone wants a WDW Motel 6, and they want THAT at a discount.

So - given the rooms are vacant (a lot).... no wonder they are being converted to DVC offerings. They are empty anyway, and DVC will fill them. If you consider this to be a bad move? Then book you next vacation at rack, at a deluxe . The market speaks - Disney listens.

 

[ford91exploder]

I always find the DVC discussions to be fascinating. There is so much emotion on something that is so purely a business model. I normally stripe away some of the emotion and doom and gloom from the discussion and financial analysis and I come away with one very unimpeachable fact from @ParentsOf4 and @WDW1974. DVC sales have created a revenue addiction for the company, that addiction must be met each and every annual sales cycle.

Currently the only way to keep that 1st year sales revenue either flat or growing is to create more DVC rooms to sell. And folks aren't interested in buying more of the same, otherwise they would have only kept expanding over at OKW, they want choice. And so to feed the addiction they need to keep building. Should this revenue stream slow or stop, then we are going to get hit a major wall street revenue miss for the Parks & Rec division...and there is no way Iger would allow that to happen. I haven't seen any commentary from TWDC that would imply or signal to the banks that they see timeshare sales slowing.

From a purely 'business' focus, they have become addicted and there is no way to cheaply or quickly replace DVC sales revenue with anything else and that over the next 4-10 years does present a problem.

Well said that sums up the DVC problem in a nutshell.

 

[ford91exploder]

Nah, even at a discount there is still a pretty healthy markup...plus they can pass the cost of the work on to DVC now

After tacking on a healthy 'Management' fee...

 

[GoofGoof]

so my question is does Disney continue to build/repurpose at wdw or will they venture off site and build elsewhere, because you re exactly right..they have to (in their eyes) keep selling DVC to maintain profit but they re running out of places at wdw

Aluani sales are not as good as the company would have hoped and HH and VB are amongst the lowest priced for resale. It's hard to get the economics to work out right to build DVC outside of WDW. One big problem they have is that the economics of DVC work because you are comparing these timeshares to the cost of an equivalent WDW deluxe hotel room. There are not many places in the world where you can charge $600+ a night for hotel rooms that also fits the description of a family destination. Major cities like NY, LA and SF have luxury hotels that regularly charge prices like that, but they aren't exactly catering to families. Most of the Caribbean is relatively cheap and certainly timeshares there are cheap compared to DVC. Hawaii is one of the places that fit the bill since it is a popular vacation destination and has relatively pricey hotel rooms. I think if Aulani sold faster they may have considered a sister property or even one on another island.

I always thought that a Northeast DVC location might do well since there are a large number of WDW regulars in the area, but it's tough with the cold winters. DVC really needs to have a 365 days a year appeal so it makes NE beach areas less appealing. If they went with a more urban setting I think DC or it's suburbs might work. With lots of history and the Smithsonian museums it could hold year round appeal. Of course the most likely non-WDW DVC location would be DLR. Either beachfront with a shuttle to/from the parks or another wing/addition on the existing hotels. With only 50 DVC rooms it's a relatively untapped market.

 

[GoofGoof]

Good points. DVC only has to keep building until they have 40 properties or so and the early contracts start to end. They will then either renew contracts with sales of extensions or tear down and build anew with all new contracts. Knowing Disney's lack of interest in tear down. There will be new contracts at substantially higher prices for properties that are neither new or exciting. But I can ensure it will not be a loss of income for Disney as renew contracts will not require new construction.

This is an interesting point. Disney will probably need to stretch out new WDW DVCs until the original resort contracts begin to expire. Assuming a roughly 3 year selling cycle per project, after this WL project wraps up sales in 2020 they would really only need about 7 or 8 more projects to get to 2042. Off the top of my head here's 7 possible DVC projects that have either been rumored in the past or just make sense to me:

1. Conversion of BWI rooms to DVC (maybe the whole resort)
2. Conversion of additional BC rooms to DVC
3. Conversion of some YC rooms to DVC
4. Conversion of several "islands" of CBR into a DVC tower
5. BLT2 on the site of the other garden wing
6. EPCOT DVC in the parking lot
7. River Country DVC project

There are probably others we haven't even heard of yet. If each of these projects took roughly 3 years to sell it would stretch all the way until 2042. This also doesn't include any additional off property DVC projects. The other factor is that WDW is actually experiencing some growth recently. The last earnings release had hotel occupancy at 89% which is pretty healthy for recent history. They could also potentially add a 5th gate by 2042 resulting in additional attendance. It may be time soon that WDW considers expanding its hotel offerings (non-DVC rooms). It's very likely that if they do they will build a new resort as a mix of DVC and hotel rooms. Why try to jam it in later. If they actually go forward with either the River Country project or the EPCOT parking lot project I could see those being a mix use project with some studio hotel rooms, some cash room family suites (those are popular these days) and some DVC.

Another possibility is that with something like 5 to 10 years to go on the original contracts Disney might offer extensions to existing owners. With the money from selling the extensions they could do some major refurbs on the existing resort and pocket the rest of the cash. When the contracts for any of those people who didn't extend expire the points can be resold creating a glut of DVC points to sell. With all of that available inventory they won't need to build anything new for a decade or more. In other words they could potentially start this reselling process in 2032 instead of 2042 meaning they really might only need 4 additional new projects after WL.

 

[LAKid53]

so my question is does Disney continue to build/repurpose at wdw or will they venture off site and build elsewhere, because you re exactly right..they have to (in their eyes) keep selling DVC to maintain profit but they re running out of places at wdw

I disagree. I think they've got plenty of room. Purchased around 27,000 acres. 1/3 set aside for conservation. Have probably used less than half of the remaining 18,000 or so acres for parks/resorts. So I think if they've got 8,000 to 10,000 acres left that can be developed, they've got space.

But I'd rather see them use some of that acreage for a 5th gate. Like an awesome Star Wars Land.