Why Does Fifth Gate Speculation Always Seem to be Out of Left Field?

[Buried20KLeague]

Yeah, TDS is amazing. You could spend literally hours inside the caldera of Mt. Promethius just taking in all the detail... And that's before even talking about the rest of the park. Park upkeep is immaculate. In 5 days at the resort, we couldn't find any chipped paint or broken animatronics.

Attractions didn't have to have character tie ins. The cast was cheery, every single minute of our trip, no matter if it was early in the morning or late at night. To the point where we joked they must be issued some sort of pill every day. The cast always looked immaculate, too. No personal sunglasses on the HM maids, for example.

The shows are top quality. Just amazing.

and that's just a small sampling.

All these thing add up to an experience unmatched at any park in the world, I think... And ve been to all of them except Paris at this point.

 

[wickedfan07]

Gotta love the fifth gate rumors.

As so many others have said so many times before, the existing attractions (the parks and everything else) in WDW need updating, plussing and upkeep right now. This is no small task, specially since many things around the Resort have been let go for too long (certain rides, the TTC, etc.) and some things just weren't done in the best way in the first place. WDW will ever be finished; something will always need updating, refurbishment or expansion. The four parks we have now are big enough and broad enough to hold almost any idea.

Adding attractions to the four theme parks we have now will help expand the resort more than a whole new gate. If the new gate opens with 15 attractions for example, those are fifteen potential attractions we didn't get in the parks we already love. You could have built Beastly Kingdom or redone Imagination a least three times with those resources. Wouldn't the money be better spent making the current product better instead of spreading the quality out thinner and thinner?

Is a fifth gate out of the question? No, not necessarily. but I think four theme parks plus the various enteertainment complexes provide more than enough space for development realistically, financially, logistically and creatively. Then again, I don't have the MBA. We'll let the suits decide.

 

[Legacy]

Oh, I think something will eventually happen b/c Disney is always expanding, but I agree that it will be more on the lines of a SeaWorld competitor than something like Night Kingdom or whatever. All those rumors are just so far out in left field it isn't even funny. If anything EVER came of ANY of them, I would be truely shocked and amazed. But, Disney Sea would certainly spark my interests!! And be more in line with traditional Disney planning. Time will tell. For now, I think the focus needs to be on what they already HAVE, and improving on things where needed.

Jodi

That's the problem.

Theme parks are changing. The demographics are becoming more diverse. Just look at what Dubai is creating.

People need stop thinking about "What Disney normally does."

Stop expecting a traditional theme park. Tradition is the LAST thing Disney needs for their next park.

 

[ChrisFL]

Is TDS all that? I have never been there, but are all the people who have saying that it leaves everything at WDW in the dust? I cannot believe that it could do that but I am open to comments from those that have been there.

Admittedly I haven't been there yet, but I've seen countless trip reports, videos, pictures and guides and it truly does appear to be on another level, theme park wise.

A few trip report photo sites:

http://land.allears.net/blogs/jackspence/2008/06/miracosta_hotel_tokyo_disneyse_1.html (just the hotel mostly, but still amazing)
http://www.tommyandjames.net/japan0823.html (this one has some odd commentary)
http://www.themeparkreview.com/japan2004/tds1.htm

 

[RSoxNo1]

The rumors have been that a Jules Verne area would find it's way to the Animal Kingdom and would include JTTCOTE and a derivation of 20K Leagues

 

[imagineer boy]

Is TDS all that? I have never been there, but are all the people who have saying that it leaves everything at WDW in the dust? I cannot believe that it could do that but I am open to comments from those that have been there.

Here's a pretty good photo site of the park: http://www.tdrfan.com/tds/index.htm

 

[Jodileigh]

That's the problem.

Theme parks are changing. The demographics are becoming more diverse. Just look at what Dubai is creating.

People need stop thinking about "What Disney normally does."

Stop expecting a traditional theme park. Tradition is the LAST thing Disney needs for their next park.

You make a good point, however, they can't go so far into left field that it leaves people wondering what the heck were they thinking! They do have certain standards they have to uphold. And I hate to use the word traditions, but that does come into play. Disney is known for being a "family" theme park. Something dark or whatever would certainly NOT be family friendly. They do have PI, which is adult, but it is still not an entire park unto itself, just a few clubs. There's a world of difference. I think you are entirely right that the jaw dropping ingenuity is what is needed at this point in time to keep the WOW factor. Certain things that were amazing when EPCOT opened 25 yrs ago and everyday now. But they still have to uphold the backbone of the Disney name by keeping it family friendly. If AE couldn't make it b/c it was freaking people out, then I know an entire park dedicated to "night kingdom" couldn't make it. It's just too much away from a family friendly atmosphere. Don't get me wrong, parts of that sounded really interesting. But more as an addition in AK or something than a whole new gate. But then again, I LOVED AE!! Call me crazy!

Jodi

 

[sknydave]

Is TDS all that? I have never been there, but are all the people who have saying that it leaves everything at WDW in the dust? I cannot believe that it could do that but I am open to comments from those that have been there.

why do you believe it cannot do that?

 

[teebin]

why do you believe it cannot do that?

for many many many reasons.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

That's the problem.

Theme parks are changing. The demographics are becoming more diverse. Just look at what Dubai is creating.

People need stop thinking about "What Disney normally does."

Stop expecting a traditional theme park. Tradition is the LAST thing Disney needs for their next park.

I disagree with this, actually. Yes, times are changing and peoples' focus is different than it was before. But the Disney park formula still works. There's no reason it wouldn't. Disney Sea is a good example of how it does work... And that was built in 2001... Fairly recent.

I think it would be a little much to ask Disney to put billions of dollars into a completely radical formula that may or may not find favor with the millions. That's too much risk that a publicly owned company wouldn't take.

I think a smarter way to do it is to attack the park design the same, but add in new and revolutionary pieces to that design. Like they're doing now. TSM is a good example of that... The whole interactive piece.

Go with what works, and take smaller risks within that formula.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

for many many many reasons.

I'm curious to hear some of them...

If there's one thing I've found by visiting parks outside our "home" resort (WDW), it's that Florida isn't the "end all be all" like I felt like it was.

Florida is blessed with size. And no one will ever take that away. But in my opinion, the resort is vulnerable in pretty much every other way.

Don't get me wrong... I still love WDW and we consider it our home. :sohappy: But when you see how things are done everywhere else... It begins to lose a bit of its luster.

 

[sknydave]

for many many many reasons.

So basically you don't have an answer?

 

[lilphil6487]

And seeing a slimmed down Disney Sea here would be just like WDW's POTC vs. DL's. Once you've been through the bayou, WDW's just doesn't do it for you anymore.

I so agree with you on that after going to DL for the first time last summer. Same goes for space mountain. I have never been to TDS, but it looks amazing, and with the way so many things have been slimmed down as you said when brought to WDW, i cant see it being anywhere as good as TDS. One thing I have always wanted to see at WDW was the Indiana Jones Adventure, but I could see it being slimmed down. That whole really awesome que line that goes through the jungle than inside the pyramid im sure would be gone. That same thing happened to ToT when they brought it to DCA. Not saying tht it made it any less of a ride, but i like the little details like that. Anyway, back onto the 5th Gate. Personally I agree with others about a villains park being more of just a land than a whole park, and I would love to see something different, offering so many different experiences that cannot be seen anywhere else, or redone anywhere else. I know WDI can come up with it, it just depends on Disney's budgeting. I dont see a new park happening for the sole fact that the existing parks need expanding on. Magic Kingdom is great. They did refurbishments so its pretty much good, except they still need to refurbish Space Mountain, since DL's updated one kicks its butt. Epcot needs something done with WOL, and more countries. MGM needs so much done with it i cant even think of where to start. The last time I went I just reallyt didnt care for it anymore. We did RnR, ToT, GMR, etc. I dont like the Backlot Tour anymore now that LMAX is there, and I personally dont like LMAX, way too much talking and less action. I love the Indiana Jones Stunt Show, But I would like to see some added things to it like maybe stunts from Temple of Doom or Last Crusade. TSM seems awesome but there is more to be done. I know American Idol will draw a lot of crowds. And Animal Kingdom is much better than it was when it first opened. EE is awesome!!! I could spend a whole day there if it was open all day. They need to take advice from DL with their "reimagineering" of DCA and fix up existing parks before adding a new one.

 

[Legacy]

You make a good point, however, they can't go so far into left field that it leaves people wondering what the heck were they thinking! They do have certain standards they have to uphold. And I hate to use the word traditions, but that does come into play. Disney is known for being a "family" theme park. Something dark or whatever would certainly NOT be family friendly. They do have PI, which is adult, but it is still not an entire park unto itself, just a few clubs. There's a world of difference. I think you are entirely right that the jaw dropping ingenuity is what is needed at this point in time to keep the WOW factor. Certain things that were amazing when EPCOT opened 25 yrs ago and everyday now. But they still have to uphold the backbone of the Disney name by keeping it family friendly. If AE couldn't make it b/c it was freaking people out, then I know an entire park dedicated to "night kingdom" couldn't make it. It's just too much away from a family friendly atmosphere. Don't get me wrong, parts of that sounded really interesting. But more as an addition in AK or something than a whole new gate. But then again, I LOVED AE!! Call me crazy!

Jodi

I think the concept of "Night Kingdom" might not be fully understood by people on this site.

It's like Discovery Cove. It's like Discovery Cove. It's like Discovery Cove.
It's like Discovery Cove.


What is Night Kingdom going to be comparable to?


By "tradition," I don't mean "not family-friendly." I mean the concept of a traditional themepark with a bunch of rides and shows and resturaunts. That is a box that Disney needs to think outside of.

The argument that "Disney doesn't need a fifth park because they need to build up their current ones," is valid, but it also assumes that a fifth park would be like the current ones in a traditional mold.

Discovery Cove doesn't have any rides or shows. It is a place that is experienced.

THAT is what Night Kingdom is going to be like if it comes to fruition.

That is what people need to realize, and they need to stop comparing the concept of Night Kingdom to what Disney has built already. It's something completely different.

 

[teebin]

So basically you don't have an answer?

My, my, you are a stickler. :wave:

Ok, understand that I had absolutely no knowledge of TDS. I had never investigated it. Thus I posed the question and the statement. Many good people on here have provided cool links that I otherwise did not know about so the question was worth it.

While it was stated that they spent 4B constructing TDS and I had no reason to disbelieve that they did, I could not get my head around the fact that the spent that much. Japan is a small country and I could not understand how the OLC could justify such a huge budget. I would expect that it will take an incredible number of years to get a return on such an investment. Too, it seems odd (to me) that Disney couldn't or wouldn't spend that much or more on it's own parks.

I have since looked at the pictures and read quite a bit of text. It is big and it looks like they spent every bit of that money. It has cold horizons though, much like the world showcase. Not immersive as with IOA, MK, AK for example. Just my personal pref.

 

[PuertoRekinSam]

The 5th park would be themed to self exploration.

Why do I think this? Because it's not just a matter of the money to build it, but the cast to staff it. Think about how much staffing has been cut back around the parks. Chris does not get Joe Perry's Black Les Paul anymore. Food locations are left empty during busy times.




Casting is constantly trying to give more insentives to cast to get others to work for disney. Don't get me wrong, it can be very rewarding to work for Disney from a personal level, but when it takes half a weeks pay check for the front line cast to fill the gas tank these days, people are going to look for options that are closer to home, or pay better.
All I'm saying is until the 4 exisiting parks are fully staffed, I can't see Disney opening a 5th park, less let the guest experience suffer.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Those photos from TDS look truly amazing. I guess the park really is as good as everybody says it is. I have to see this place.

I could even reason that I couldn't see a Disney Sea clone ever coming stateside because there aren't enough character tie-ins. That's just the way things are these days. One of the coolest attractions there (that my kids loved) was The Voyage of Sinbad. Great attraction. But I don't think it would ever get built here. No character tie-ins. The only benefit would be the sale of Chandu plushes (which my kids now have FIVE of!!)! :lol:

Edited because I had another thought: One thing that makes Disney Sea great is the extreme level of detail even within reach of the crowds. In Japan, people respect what's around them. No gum stuck places. ZERO trash anywhere you go in the parks. You could eat off the floor. In the states, all that high theming within reach would take an absolute beating. They'd have to make changes to design for that reason alone, I would imagine.

Alas, I think you hit the nail on the head in both paragraphs.

 

[lilphil6487]

By "tradition," I don't mean "not family-friendly." I mean the concept of a traditional themepark with a bunch of rides and shows and resturaunts. That is a box that Disney needs to think outside of.

The argument that "Disney doesn't need a fifth park because they need to build up their current ones," is valid, but it also assumes that a fifth park would be like the current ones in a traditional mold.

Discovery Cove doesn't have any rides or shows. It is a place that is experienced.

What I meant by the current parks needed to be fixed up before a new is built is that disney needs to put more money into those parks before they come up with a new one. They can put money into both projects, but im sure it would cost a lot of money. Therefore, finish one before start another. Now on the thing about assuming that a new one would follow tradition, I didnt mean that at all. If you notice I said Im sure WDI could come up with a new experience that you cannot get any where else and cannot/should not be re-created anywhere else. I would love to go somewhere that needs to be experienced, not just rides and shows.
Just clarifying myself. If it was all up to WDI, Im sure we would definately have a new "outside the box" experience you cannot get anywhere else. I hope thats what Night Kingdom will be all about, cause that would be cool.

 

[ChrisFL]

The 5th park would be themed to self exploration.

Why do I think this? Because it's not just a matter of the money to build it, but the cast to staff it. Think about how much staffing has been cut back around the parks. Chris does not get Joe Perry's Black Les Paul anymore. Food locations are left empty during busy times.




Casting is constantly trying to give more insentives to cast to get others to work for disney. Don't get me wrong, it can be very rewarding to work for Disney from a personal level, but when it takes half a weeks pay check for the front line cast to fill the gas tank these days, people are going to look for options that are closer to home, or pay better.
All I'm saying is until the 4 exisiting parks are fully staffed, I can't see Disney opening a 5th park, less let the guest experience suffer.

Yes, that is a big problem and why, from what I'm hearing, Night Kingdom will be very close to Animal Kingdom and use many of the same staff in an extra-hours manner. Many CMs already work LOOONG days, so this concept is nothing new, and with AK normally closing at 5PM-7PM it makes sense to me.

 

[Jodileigh]

I think the concept of "Night Kingdom" might not be fully understood by people on this site.

It's like Discovery Cove. It's like Discovery Cove. It's like Discovery Cove.
It's like Discovery Cove.


What is Night Kingdom going to be comparable to?


By "tradition," I don't mean "not family-friendly." I mean the concept of a traditional themepark with a bunch of rides and shows and resturaunts. That is a box that Disney needs to think outside of.

The argument that "Disney doesn't need a fifth park because they need to build up their current ones," is valid, but it also assumes that a fifth park would be like the current ones in a traditional mold.

Discovery Cove doesn't have any rides or shows. It is a place that is experienced.

THAT is what Night Kingdom is going to be like if it comes to fruition.

That is what people need to realize, and they need to stop comparing the concept of Night Kingdom to what Disney has built already. It's something completely different.

Now, I have to say, from what I had read, Discovery Cove NEVER crossed my mind in comparison to Night Kingdom. HOWEVER, I haven't read that much, all in all. So, it isn't like I'm an expert there! Obviously you've read more than I have on it! I guess we'll all just have to wait and see. So many rumors float around but it sounds to me like NK is just that: a rumor. And it doesn't even sound like a hopeful rumor. But, time will tell! My big concern with it would be that, if it is like DC, then it isn't necessarily family friendly. DC has an age limit. That's why we've never been. I won't go if we can't enjoy the day as a family. That's the point of my going to Disney. I would LOVE to experience it, but I just can't bring myself to leave my youngest ds behind in order to do it.

Jodi