Why Disneyland’s $1 billion Star Wars land isn’t a bust despite flat attendance - OCR/SCNG

[lazyboy97o]

Honestly, when I think of "living my Star Wars Adventure", I envision:
-A giant laser tag battle in a Star Destroyer where you and your "team" are instrumental in helping the Rebels disable a weapon made by the Empire.
-A high-speed X-Wing or Speeder Bike multi-track coaster experience where you have to catch up to the rest of your squad amidst heavy resistance fire.
-A dining experience in Cloud City high above the rest of the land.
-Actual roaming droids and strange, otherworldly Bantha-like creatures that take your breath away when they lumber down the street.

Notice anything about your thoughts? You don't really talk about experiencing a place. We don't know the interior of a Star Destroyer beyond the bridge, hangars and an endless maze of corridors. Cloud City is a place but your attention is on the [Special Edition] view, not the city.

 

[DanielBB8]

Because the locations of Star Wars are not really where you want to be, you want to be out in a space ship flying around to all sorts of different places, but those places are not really important. You want a sense of limitless freedom. You want Star Tours.

I already done Star Tours. I don't need it again, but what I wanted was the exit from Star Tours into Star Wars Land... an actual land that Star Tours promises.

Disneyland is very much an urban place. It is the Architecture of Reassurance. A place built around the best of people, where we come together, where we experience together. The places of Star Wars are the Architecture of Oppression be it the harsh elements of a Tatooine or the political power of a Star Destroyer. It's an exciting world but it is not really a happy world.

Tatooine is a land to explore strange new creatures and adventures. It is familiar to the most rabid Star Wars fan. If I did it, it would be taking the Frontierland experience to the next level. Instead of guns and rifles, you get lasers and lightsabers. I would be very happy there. What you see is a bunch of alien merchants and traders. You only want them if you need something. People need adventure. Batuu is laid bare. There's not enough creative power to duplicate what was already available and discarded by WDI and Lucasfilm.

 

[Mac Tonight]

Notice anything about your thoughts? You don't really talk about experiencing a place. We don't know the interior of a Star Destroyer beyond the bridge, hangars and an endless maze of corridors. Cloud City is a place but your attention is on the [Special Edition] view, not the city.

I guess that explains why I never thought a Star Wars Land was a good idea in the first place

 

[waltography]

Like Batuu it's meaningless. I don't want to be pessimistic, they, of course, can do new stuff but they need to better connect to the fans and the general public whose knowledge isn't that great. It's why the "life day" idea was lame. Made up or obscure festivals that mean nothing to anyone, will not connect to people.

I get that, but it's not a bad idea that won't connect with people; instead, it would be poor execution. If Batuu were brimming with streetmosphere instead of the hollow shell it is right now, I'd say there'd be far fewer complaints about the land. Original ideas in existing IP can work, and would be far more rewarding in my opinion.

 

[MarvelCharacterNerd]

Tatooine is a land to explore strange new creatures and adventures. It is familiar to the most rabid Star Wars fan. If I did it, it would be taking the Frontierland experience to the next level. Instead of guns and rifles, you get lasers and lightsabers. I would be very happy there. What you see is a bunch of alien merchants and traders. You only want them if you need something. People need adventure. Batuu is laid bare. There's not enough creative power to duplicate what was already available and discarded by WDI and Lucasfilm.

Man, I would've loved a whole land themed to Tatooine. Eat at Mos Eisley cantina. Trade with Jawas (maybe they are the pin traders in the land or create a new product for them to trade). Build a droid shop. Bounty hunter and Stormtrooper stunt shows. Millennium Falcon ride with Han and Chewie. Done.

Leave the Jedi Training Academy and SW character meet & greets in Tomorrowland with Star Tours. Refurbish the People Mover track and add land speeders or speeder bikes up there. Retheme Astro-Orbiter to Star Wars pod racers for the littles.

Sorry for the armchair imagineering/wishful thinking. But I would have loved to visit both of those places...

 

[truecoat]

Good idea for a theme park, but not good enough for Star Wars canon. They have a celebration in victory. Episode 1, 4, and 6 have celebrations when they win. That's why it's important to revert Batuu back to Tatooine. They can celebrate the Rebel Alliance victory over the Empire at Mos Eisley every night just outside the Cantina similar to WDW's New Year's Celebration at Pleasure Island. If they convert the entrance to Rise of Resistance to Endor, they can celebrate there with Ewoks. 2 planet celebrations per night.

 

[Travel Junkie]

@el_super — I’m interested in your opinion. Truly. No offense; I’m not trying to start trouble.

You’ve argued this point many times in defense of SWGE—enough to make me wonder if you have a personal attachment to it IRL — and I’m truly curious to know how you’d apply the same logic to a Wizarding World without its best known characters. Would it work? Could it work?

Not who you tagged, but I'll provide my own answer as some one who really likes SWGE.

I will tread lightly as I was previously called names and insulted in the past for saying nothing more than I really like GE. It is extremely well done IMO. It is not perfect. Smugglers Run is a disappointment, but a concept I didn't think would work. The side of the land facing the ROA is void of activity. Overall though I find the land to be well crafted and executed. Despite tech problems ROTR is a fantastic ride.

I may be the perfect person or the worst person to ask about Harry Potter. Never seen a movie, nor read any of the books. I don't know any character except Harry Potter and whoever Emma Watson plays. I find the Wizarding World and Diagon Alley to be fantastic lands. It makes absolutely no difference to me if I know who the characters are or not. If it is well done, it will transcend the IP. Wizarding World does.

One thing I keep hearing as a criticism is lamenting over the things they promised or talked about that didn't end up in the land. I don't judge the land on what they said what could or could happen. I judge it on what the result is. I find GE to be a well executed land that has one great ride, one okay ride, and a fun place to walk around in.

 

[el_super]

@el_super — I’m interested in your opinion. Truly. No offense; I’m not trying to start trouble.

It's a fair question. I don't think the success or failure of a theme park land should really hinge on which characters or which IP is presented. It's why I find the cries of adding Luke Skywalker so baffling. Not only is it an enforcement that characters must be present in a land for it to be successful, but it absolutely matters which characters are presented. They have to be the right characters or IP or else you will be doomed to failure.

From a historical perspective that's not how themed areas were developed. New Orleans Square was a place, not a character. Main Street was a place, not a character. Its hard for me to understand because it almost seems that people wanted Batuu to be more like Toontown: in whole, a setup for the simple premise of meeting a character. Since I find Toontown to be the weakest of the lands, I can't help but dismiss these arguments as just wishful armchair Imagineering, rather than actual critical analysis. I have to believe that Toontown doesn't represent the apex of Themed Design.

On Potter specifcially, I am not a potter fan and barely made it through the movies, but I did find the places and shops visually appealing. Its some of the best work that Universal has put out and easily comparable to Disney. I think the land absolutely works without having recognizable characters walking around. Save those for the big payoffs in the attractions.

You’ve argued this point many times in defense of SWGE—enough to make me wonder if you have a personal attachment to it IRL — and I’m truly curious to know how you’d apply the same logic to a Wizarding World without its best known characters. Would it work? Could it work?

WDI and Lucasfilm expected the new trilogy to be a bigger cultural hit than it was*, and they thought this sort of time-locked comic-con cosplay was the solution guests wanted.

... I don't really think they are wrong here. It may take a few more years/decades but the landscape is definitely shifting in the themed entertainment realm. Providing settings and landscapes in a physical environment is going be something that works to their advantage in the future, beyond what home entertainment can provide.

Disneyland is already the most Instagrammed place on earth. There is a need and want there for a form of entertainment that is unknown to the traditional theme park crowd. It's the new frontier.

As for the movies themselves. If the prequels can find an audience some twenty years out, the sequels will too. Much like Disneyland, the Star Wars you experience as a child is the one that makes the biggest connection, and, given enough time, there will eventually be far more prequel/sequel fans than OT fans.

 

[Mac Tonight]

It's a fair question. I don't think the success or failure of a theme park land should really hinge on which characters or which IP is presented. It's why I find the cries of adding Luke Skywalker so baffling. Not only is it an enforcement that characters must be present in a land for it to be successful, but it absolutely matters which characters are presented. They have to be the right characters or IP or else you will be doomed to failure.

From a historical perspective that's not how themed areas were developed. New Orleans Square was a place, not a character. Main Street was a place, not a character. Its hard for me to understand because it almost seems that people wanted Batuu to be more like Toontown: in whole, a setup for the simple premise of meeting a character. Since I find Toontown to be the weakest of the lands, I can't help but dismiss these arguments as just wishful armchair Imagineering, rather than actual critical analysis. I have to believe that Toontown doesn't represent the apex of Themed Design.

On Potter specifcially, I am not a potter fan and barely made it through the movies, but I did find the places and shops visually appealing. Its some of the best work that Universal has put out and easily comparable to Disney. I think the land absolutely works without having recognizable characters walking around. Save those for the big payoffs in the attractions.

You’ve argued this point many times in defense of SWGE—enough to make me wonder if you have a personal attachment to it IRL — and I’m truly curious to know how you’d apply the same logic to a Wizarding World without its best known characters. Would it work? Could it work?



... I don't really think they are wrong here. It may take a few more years/decades but the landscape is definitely shifting in the themed entertainment realm. Providing settings and landscapes in a physical environment is going be something that works to their advantage in the future, beyond what home entertainment can provide.

Disneyland is already the most Instagrammed place on earth. There is a need and want there for a form of entertainment that is unknown to the traditional theme park crowd. It's the new frontier.

As for the movies themselves. If the prequels can find an audience some twenty years out, the sequels will too. Much like Disneyland, the Star Wars you experience as a child is the one that makes the biggest connection, and, given enough time, there will eventually be far more prequel/sequel fans than OT fans.

I don't think the success or failure of a theme park land should really hinge on which characters or which IP is presented. It's why I find the cries of adding Luke Skywalker so baffling. Not only is it an enforcement that characters must be present in a land for it to be successful, but it absolutely matters which characters are presented. They have to be the right characters or IP or else you will be doomed to failure.

I agree that the success of a theme park land should be down to design and function instead of just which IP is presented, but that's where I think our agreements end.

I also find it baffling that you find it baffling people are upset about the non-presence of Luke Skywalker (or ANY Skywalker frankly) in Star Wars Land.

For my money, the entire point of creating an IP-specific land or attraction IS to have recognizable characters, designs, objects, music, locations, buildings, present in the land. Otherwise, what's the point of tying it to an IP in the first place?

Why tie "Temple of the Forbidden Eye" to Indiana Jones if your plan was to not use the character or music?
If POTC was created in response to the movies coming out but didn't feature Jack Sparrow anywhere, why call it Pirates of the Caribbean?

Whether you agree or not, IP-based lands create certain expectations in the guest. There's a reason guests expect to see Buzz and Woody in Toy Story Land, and a reason Disney would even create a Toy Story Land in the first place instead of something from scratch. Merchandise. Movie tie-ins. Synergy. Bob Chapek's favorite word.

From a historical perspective that's not how themed areas were developed. New Orleans Square was a place, not a character. Main Street was a place, not a character.
I'm glad you brought those places up because that's exactly why those lands have endured for so long. They're not tied to an IP. They aren't trying to be or represent a franchise... but Star Wars Land is. Black Spire Outpost is a character. SWL is the only place in Disneyland that comes equipped with it's own backstory, and claims that CM's aren't just Disneyland CM's but actual "characters" themselves. But I can guarantee you, the casual guest (heck, even the die-hard guest) couldn't care less about the "backstory" of the guy selling them a Coke.

I know you like to equate Batuu and NOS, but they're not really comparable on a certain level. One is a "timeless" representation of a place and atmosphere, and one is trying to encompass a literal universe of movies, books, characters, etc.

 

[DanielBB8]

A theme park doesn't need IP, but an IP can certainly provide theming to a theme park. Why is that so difficult?

It's like el_super is describing the inherent conflict at Disney that's causing them to fail in the Star Wars project.

Disney can just wipe themselves of this problem by removing Star Wars from it.

 

[Curious Constance]

I think this is basically what @October82 has already said, but my thoughts on Star Wars Land’s failure is they vastly overestimate how many people really, truly want to live out a Star Wars Adventure. Sure there are lots of SW fans, but percentage wise, the vast majority don’t care at all or don’t care much beyond enjoying the movies. Given this, if you’re basing a land on SW it’s going to be very important to have it be a place that’s fun and enjoyable to be in regardless of whether you’re a SW fan or not. If not, the only people that are going to like being there are extreme fans who get enjoyment out of recognizing obscure references they read in a book or saw in a movie etc. That’s not very many people in the grand scheme of things. And because it’s not very fun, or enjoyable to be in, I think that makes people scrutinize the lack of recognizable characters waaaay more than they would if they were just having a good time.

 

[George Lucas on a Bench]

Star Wars could have been fun, I guess. But I don't want to go to a depressing abandoned war-torn beige town with all humans dressed like hipsters, a lame Xbox game and a space hallway ride.

 

[Mac Tonight]

I'll just throw this in for fun... People (myself included) seemed to have far less problems with the Star Wars IP in Disneyland when Star Wars lived exclusively in Tomorrowland.

 

[1HAPPYGHOSTHOST]

I'll just throw this in for fun... People (myself included) seemed to have far less problems with the Star Wars IP in Disneyland when Star Wars lived exclusively in Tomorrowland.

Because what was in Tomorrowland was STAR WARS we knew and loved. We had a great similator ride that took us through the star wars universe with familiar characters. we had jedi training where people could battle vader or darth maul, you had hyper space mountain that made you feel you were in the middle of a star wars dog fight. whats not to love?

 

[Mac Tonight]

Because what was in Tomorrowland was STAR WARS we knew and loved. We had a great similator ride that took us through the star wars universe with familiar characters. we had jedi training where people could battle vader or darth maul, you had hyper space mountain that made you feel you were in the middle of a star wars dog fight. whats not to love?

my point exactly

 

[waltography]

So then, instead of it's main characters, do you think people would have accepted a Wizarding World that wasn't set in a recognizable place?

(This started as a response to you, but it kind of evolved from that, so I apologize for the digression.)

I think with the Wizarding World, it was inevitable they'd build out Hogwarts, Hogsmeade, and Diagon Alley first. Essentially 6/7ths of the series takes place in those three locations, so to do anything outside of it them would be stupid. It's been a while since I last watched the movies, but I feel like you don't see that same centrality in location in Star Wars. If Universal had built Beauxbatons instead, maybe a select few Potter fans would love it, but the GP would be scratching their heads wondering why a land is based around the French school from GoF.

In that regard, I think an original land like Batuu that took visual cues from across the lore was inevitable for a SWL; I'm just wondering why they didn't take it to a more fun conclusion. Batuu being an outpost means that it can attract anyone and everyone, so there's absolutely no reason (outside of that stupid timelock) we can't see a mix of familiar characters and characters designed for the land.

 

[Mac Tonight]

(This started as a response to you, but it kind of evolved from that, so I apologize for the digression.)

I think with the Wizarding World, it was inevitable they'd build out Hogwarts, Hogsmeade, and Diagon Alley first. Essentially 6/7ths of the series takes place in those three locations, so to do anything outside of it them would be stupid. It's been a while since I last watched the movies, but I feel like you don't see that same centrality in location in Star Wars. If Universal had built Beauxbatons instead, maybe a select few Potter fans would love it, but the GP would be scratching their heads wondering why a land is based around the French school from GoF.

In that regard, I think an original land like Batuu that took visual cues from across the lore was inevitable for a SWL; I'm just wondering why they didn't take it to a more fun conclusion. Batuu being an outpost means that it can attract anyone and everyone, so there's absolutely no reason (outside of that stupid timelock) we can't see a mix of familiar characters and characters designed for the land.

They really did paint themselves into a corner by time-locking the land. I expect if sweeping changes are to be made, removing the time constraint would be high on the list.

 

[smooch]

Because what was in Tomorrowland was STAR WARS we knew and loved. We had a great similator ride that took us through the star wars universe with familiar characters. we had jedi training where people could battle vader or darth maul, you had hyper space mountain that made you feel you were in the middle of a star wars dog fight. whats not to love?

I think it's incredibly pathetic that the Jedi Training Academy in TL was more effective in making those who participated feel like they were living a Star Wars adventure more than Galaxy's Edge does. I did that as a kid and it was genuinely the highlight of my trip and it was incredibly fun fighting off Darth Maul and playing along with the Jedi Masters.

 

[Phroobar]

I think it's incredibly pathetic that the Jedi Training Academy in TL was more effective in making those who participated feel like they were living a Star Wars adventure more than Galaxy's Edge does. I did that as a kid and it was genuinely the highlight of my trip and it was incredibly fun fighting off Darth Maul and playing along with the Jedi Masters.

A big mistake was not even including JTA in the new land.

 

[el_super]

I also find it baffling that you find it baffling people are upset about the non-presence of Luke Skywalker (or ANY Skywalker frankly) in Star Wars Land.

Rey is in the land. She's a Skywalker right?

For my money, the entire point of creating an IP-specific land or attraction IS to have recognizable characters, designs, objects, music, locations, buildings, present in the land. Otherwise, what's the point of tying it to an IP in the first place?

Star Wars: Galaxy's Edge has all of those things you mentioned. The problem isn't one of objectively classifying how Batuu presents those elements, it's a matter of subjectively saying you don't CARE for those elements they do present. That isn't indicative of bad design. Maybe if enough people didn't like them, it would be a terrible business decision, but not a bad design.

This argument still also ignores the idea that, even if it was divorced from the IP, the land should still be able to work as a functional space. It needs to create a hospital space that people want to spend time in, either to explore or relax. It needs to be executed in a way that convinces the audience of its effectiveness in telling its own story. Batuu does this exceptionally well, both on the small details and props scattered throughout the land, and also in the enormity of scale the land presents in the towering peaks. It absolutely feels like a real place in time, whether you do or do not like that place is a another matter.

If POTC was created in response to the movies coming out but didn't feature Jack Sparrow anywhere, why call it Pirates of the Caribbean?

Here's the real crux of the argument that I find so objectionable: You pin this argument as one that the right IP and effective use of IP is absolutely critical to the success of Batuu, but I doubt you are actually trying to say that same level of importance of IP is actually critical to other attractions like Pirates of the Caribbean. That's the inconsistency. How important is having a recognizable IP to the success of an attraction (or themed land)? From what I am understanding from these arguments, having a recognizable (and apparently deeply loved) IP is about 90% of the success of a new themed area.

I'm glad you brought those places up because that's exactly why those lands have endured for so long. They're not tied to an IP. They aren't trying to be or represent a franchise... but Star Wars Land is.

And then ... the counter argument that NOT having an IP is what makes other areas successful. So which one is it? This sounds like you're suggesting that removing all the Star Wars elements from the land, and completely divorcing Batuu from it's IP, would suddenly make the land a success overnight ala Main Street and New Orleans Square. But somehow I don't think you believe that either.

So is the problem really having an IP attached to the land, or is it specifically with the IP they chose?

I know you like to equate Batuu and NOS, but they're not really comparable on a certain level. One is a "timeless" representation of a place and atmosphere, and one is trying to encompass a literal universe of movies, books, characters, etc.

Of course they are comparable: they are all themed lands within a theme park. I feel like you're selling New Orleans and Main Street short in that description. At the core they are all trying to convey the same emotions and responses: whether they came from actual history, romanticized collective memories, or from a movie. I almost feel as though you're assigning TOO much importance in Batuu telling the stories you want it to, and so you've set the bar of success impossibly high.