Why are DVC resales almost never cheaper when buying “bulk” points?

[GoofGoof]

Can someone help me understand why the price per point varies so dramatically from resort to resort? Is the seven month availability really so bad that people are willing to pay these huge premiums for a specific home resort?

Everything @nickys and @helenabear said plus the maintenance fees and contract end dates vary. For example you can pick up a Vero beach contract at a significant discount to BLT on the resale market (maybe as much as $50 or $60 cheaper per point) but the MFs are about $2.50 a point more than BLT. Over the next 25 years until 2042 the benefit of the lower upfront costs will be eaten away by the higher MFs. In 2042 your VB contract expires but BLT would still have 18 years left to go on it. You can either continue to enjoy it or sell it resale at that point. If you assume that the BLT contract will still be worth at least $50 a point resale in 2042 (which is a pretty conservative estimate) then the upfront excess cost is completely recovered by the resale value in 2042 and you still get the potential benefit of lower MFs over the next 25 years. That's the most extreme example but the point is you have to factor in more than just the price per point.

Ignoring the desire to stay at a specific resort and only factoring in pure economics I would say SSR resale right now is your best deal. SSR goes until 2054 which is longer than the legacy resorts at 2042 and it combines both lower upfront costs and lower MFs overall. The lower MFs are not guaranteed for life but it's a huge resort so they can spread costs amongst a lot more points than most DVC resorts making it more likely to stay relatively low in comparison to its peers.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Everything @nickys and @helenabear said plus the maintenance fees and contract end dates vary. For example you can pick up a Vero beach contract at a significant discount to BLT on the resale market (maybe as much as $50 or $60 cheaper per point) but the MFs are about $2.50 a point more than BLT. Over the next 25 years until 2042 the benefit of the lower upfront costs will be eaten away by the higher MFs. In 2042 your VB contract expires but BLT would still have 18 years left to go on it. You can either continue to enjoy it or sell it resale at that point. If you assume that the BLT contract will still be worth at least $50 a point resale in 2042 (which is a pretty conservative estimate) then the upfront excess cost is completely recovered by the resale value in 2042 and you still get the potential benefit of lower MFs over the next 25 years. That's the most extreme example but the point is you have to factor in more than just the price per point.

Ignoring the desire to stay at a specific resort and only factoring in pure economics I would say SSR resale right now is your best deal. SSR goes until 2054 which is longer than the legacy resorts at 2042 and it combines both lower upfront costs and lower MFs overall. The lower MFs are not guaranteed for life but it's a huge resort so they can spread costs amongst a lot more points than most DVC resorts making it more likely to stay relatively low in comparison to its peers.

I've been kicking it around for awhile and I think I'm down to AKV or OKW. SSR is beautiful but I don't love dealing with the internal bus. OKW has the advantage of being able to park right outside your door.

 

[correcaminos]

Everything @nickys and @helenabear said plus the maintenance fees and contract end dates vary. For example you can pick up a Vero beach contract at a significant discount to BLT on the resale market (maybe as much as $50 or $60 cheaper per point) but the MFs are about $2.50 a point more than BLT. Over the next 25 years until 2042 the benefit of the lower upfront costs will be eaten away by the higher MFs. In 2042 your VB contract expires but BLT would still have 18 years left to go on it. You can either continue to enjoy it or sell it resale at that point. If you assume that the BLT contract will still be worth at least $50 a point resale in 2042 (which is a pretty conservative estimate) then the upfront excess cost is completely recovered by the resale value in 2042 and you still get the potential benefit of lower MFs over the next 25 years. That's the most extreme example but the point is you have to factor in more than just the price per point.

Ignoring the desire to stay at a specific resort and only factoring in pure economics I would say SSR resale right now is your best deal. SSR goes until 2054 which is longer than the legacy resorts at 2042 and it combines both lower upfront costs and lower MFs overall. The lower MFs are not guaranteed for life but it's a huge resort so they can spread costs amongst a lot more points than most DVC resorts making it more likely to stay relatively low in comparison to its peers.

I will say that MF should be considered but one does not know what will happen with MF over time. When I purchased we chose OKW for the good value of points as well as well as lower MFs (of course in addition to wanting to stay there). Now they are one of the higher ones. Especially with all the issues they've been having with taxes at the resorts, I cannot say one will always be better. SSR is bigger and more points, but also more rooms and area to keep up with. I always caution this to others when they are looking. Yes MFs mean actually more than the price per point in away, but at the same time no one has a magic ball to say what will happen. I don't think OKW owners ever expected such large jumps and it isn't an exactly small resort either.

 

[correcaminos]

I've been kicking it around for awhile and I think I'm down to AKV or OKW. SSR is beautiful but I don't love dealing with the internal bus. OKW has the advantage of being able to park right outside your door.

SSR parking isn't bad, but it isn't quite as nice as OKW. AKL Kidani has the garage near the elevators and it is covered which is nice too. We are not actually fans of SSR at all (but love OKW). OKW will have a bus to get you around the resort as well if you want and has multiple stops like SSR, but it is more compact.

Both resorts are good values as well (AKL and OKW). We love both truthfully and enjoy our stays there. They are ones we'd be thrilled to repeat over and over again. Some OKW resales if you can find them go to 2057. Direct from Disney will auto do that as well. We actually have no paperwork with ours saying if we agreed to the extension or not. So if my kid decides DVC is for them, we likely will pay the extra to extend.

I really think you have to buy where you at least really like. Have you visited both OKW and AKL enough to get a feel for each resort? Neither is small and you usually can get rooms more easily at both. Hospitality House area books first though (why I am glad we own there) and AKL has standard rooms that book fast too. So each does have a small reason to own if those are important.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

SSR parking isn't bad, but it isn't quite as nice as OKW. AKL Kidani has the garage near the elevators and it is covered which is nice too. We are not actually fans of SSR at all (but love OKW). OKW will have a bus to get you around the resort as well if you want and has multiple stops like SSR, but it is more compact.

Both resorts are good values as well (AKL and OKW). We love both truthfully and enjoy our stays there. They are ones we'd be thrilled to repeat over and over again. Some OKW resales if you can find them go to 2057. Direct from Disney will auto do that as well. We actually have no paperwork with ours saying if we agreed to the extension or not. So if my kid decides DVC is for them, we likely will pay the extra to extend.

I really think you have to buy where you at least really like. Have you visited both OKW and AKL enough to get a feel for each resort? Neither is small and you usually can get rooms more easily at both. Hospitality House area books first though (why I am glad we own there) and AKL has standard rooms that book fast too. So each does have a small reason to own if those are important.

Yes I've stayed at both many times as a cash guest. I'm actually at MCO as I type this after eight nights at OKW (side note, the upcoming room refurb is needed... badly). I have several cast member friends so I'm usually able to stay at a discount, which has altered the DVC value proposition but I think the NPV of resale still makes sense. DAKL is my favorite place on the planet so it would be a no brainer but I don't really care for Kidani as much as I love Jambo. Any feel for the Jambo-vs-Kidani availability at 7- and 11-months?

 

[GoofGoof]

I've been kicking it around for awhile and I think I'm down to AKV or OKW. SSR is beautiful but I don't love dealing with the internal bus. OKW has the advantage of being able to park right outside your door.

For me personally, I like AKV a lot. I've never stayed at OKW but it looks really nice too.

You can't necessarily go wrong but do keep in mind that if you want to go at a popular time or a popular room type you will greatly benefit from the 11 month window at your home resort. It's been my experience that typically the most popular room types are studios followed closely by 2BR villas with 1BR villas in 3rd. Some resorts have only 2BR lock offs (meaning the 2BR is a studio and a 1BR with a connector door) and some have both dedicated 2BR and lock off 2BRs. In the case of a lockoff when someone books a studio room then the 1BR connected to it can only be rented as a 1BR. Since studios are more popular than 1BRs you typically have the best chance of trading in at 7 months into a 1BR villa. Typically the standard view or lower point rooms also book fast. So for example you could buy a smaller contract at AKV and book the standard view studio at the 11 month window. For me I like the Savanna view rooms but they are a lot more points. I know I said "typically" a bunch of times and I just want to reiterate that these are just general guidelines not guarantees. You very well may be able to book a standard view studio at BLT at the 7 month window but it's much more likely that a 1BR lake view room will be available.

 

[correcaminos]

Yes I've stayed at both many times as a cash guest. I'm actually at MCO as I type this after eight nights at OKW (side note, the upcoming room refurb is needed... badly). I have several cast member friends so I'm usually able to stay at a discount, which has altered the DVC value proposition but I think the NPV of resale still makes sense. DAKL is my favorite place on the planet so it would be a no brainer but I don't really care for Kidani as much as I love Jambo. Any feel for the Jambo-vs-Kidani availability at 7- and 11-months?

Jambo does fill up faster than Kidani. We personally prefer Kidani so buying there didn't make as much sense to us. If you like AKL and like Jambo, buying at AKV is wise.

We were just at OKW last year and had a good room so didn't notice the need need for refurbishment, but it is time to do it. But I realize some things are luck of the draw. Our BCV newly renovated 2 bed was in worse shape than our 2 bed at OKW last year

If you feel the need to do OKW at HH area, then I would consider it, but if you don't care, then AKL would be the winner IMO out of the two.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

@helenabear @GoofGoof is it correct that OKW is the only DVC resort with two queen beds in the studios? That could be a factor in our decision, as I'd be looking to buy enough points for a one bedroom week but wanting to be able to mix in some studios and two bedrooms via banking and borrowing. I think a one-queen-plus-one-pullout would be borderline unusable for my family.

 

[nickys]

@helenabear @GoofGoof is it correct that OKW is the only DVC resort with two queen beds in the studios? That could be a factor in our decision, as I'd be looking to buy enough points for a one bedroom week but wanting to be able to mix in some studios and two bedrooms via banking and borrowing. I think a one-queen-plus-one-pullout would be borderline unusable for my family.

Well I'm not them, but yes it is the case that only OKW has the two queen beds in the studio.

Just to add, some studios have a pull down Murphy bed too, GF, Poly, BWV, BC and BRV.

There are some 1-bedrooms that have a pull out sofa bed and a sleeper chair: BLT, AKL Kidani, AKL Jambo (not value), OKW. Also I think GF but not sure.
BLT and Kidani also have 2 bathrooms in the 1-beds.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Well I'm not them, but yes it is the case that only OKW has the two queen beds in the studio.

Just to add, some studios have a pull down Murphy bed too, GF, Poly, BWV, BC and BRV.

There are some 1-bedrooms that have a pull out sofa bed and a sleeper chair: BLT, AKL Kidani, AKL Jambo (not value), OKW. Also I think GF but not sure.
BLT and Kidani also have 2 bathrooms in the 1-beds.

That drives me nuts. There's no middle ground if you want people to be able to sleep on actual beds. A studio gets you one actual bed (besides OKW). A one bedroom gets you one actual bed. And if you want any more than that you have to go all the way up to a two bedroom. Not ideal.

What I'd really love would be a one bedroom villa with two queens in the master instead of the king. But alas, I dream.

 

[GoofGoof]

That drives me nuts. There's no middle ground if you want people to be able to sleep on actual beds. A studio gets you one actual bed (besides OKW). A one bedroom gets you one actual bed. And if you want any more than that you have to go all the way up to a two bedroom. Not ideal.

What I'd really love would be a one bedroom villa with two queens in the master instead of the king. But alas, I dream.

We've discussed the same thing. I think the main reason they do it that way is to make the rooms consistent. They don't need two categories of studios. I hate when I check into a hotel and reserve a king sized bed and all they have left is a room with 2 doubles. It could also be room size for the 1 BR since 2 queens take up more space than a king and a lot of the resorts don't have a whole lot of extra space in that bedroom. For the 1BR villas I think it's also about not wanting too many people jammed into 1 room. At BLT the 1BR sleeps 5 with the king bed plus pullout couch and chair. If they had 2 queens it would go up to 7 and a 2BR could go up as high as 11. The more people in a room the more wear and tear plus the more people using the common amenities.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

We've discussed the same thing. I think the main reason they do it that way is to make the rooms consistent. They don't need two categories of studios. I hate when I check into a hotel and reserve a king sized bed and all they have left is a room with 2 doubles. It could also be room size for the 1 BR since 2 queens take up more space than a king and a lot of the resorts don't have a whole lot of extra space in that bedroom. For the 1BR villas I think it's also about not wanting too many people jammed into 1 room. At BLT the 1BR sleeps 5 with the king bed plus pullout couch and chair. If they had 2 queens it would go up to 7 and a 2BR could go up as high as 11. The more people in a room the more wear and tear plus the more people using the common amenities.

Does Disney not enforce capacity rules? They could still say the BLT room has a max occupancy of 5 regardless of the bed configuration.

 

[correcaminos]

@helenabear @GoofGoof is it correct that OKW is the only DVC resort with two queen beds in the studios? That could be a factor in our decision, as I'd be looking to buy enough points for a one bedroom week but wanting to be able to mix in some studios and two bedrooms via banking and borrowing. I think a one-queen-plus-one-pullout would be borderline unusable for my family.

Yes, that is true! That said unless you need the HH area, booking at 7 months usually isn't an issue.

That drives me nuts. There's no middle ground if you want people to be able to sleep on actual beds. A studio gets you one actual bed (besides OKW). A one bedroom gets you one actual bed. And if you want any more than that you have to go all the way up to a two bedroom. Not ideal.

What I'd really love would be a one bedroom villa with two queens in the master instead of the king. But alas, I dream.

Well there is a third option. Connecting studios at PVB. Two queens and two murphy beds...

 

[GoofGoof]

Does Disney not enforce capacity rules? They could still say the BLT room has a max occupancy of 5 regardless of the bed configuration.

They do enforce capacity rules and they only provide the number of towels and bedding for the number of guests. In the past it was possible to "sneak" an extra guest in but they would just need to bring their own supplies. Now with magic bands and FP+ it's a little harder. You could still technically do it but the "extra" guests wouldn't be on the reservation so no magic band or advance FP booking. I guess if they had an AP it would work.

To your point, they could limit the occupancy to less than available bed spaces if they wanted to but they currently don't. I guess they could just replace the sleeper couch and chairs with a regular sofa and chair and do it that way.

 

[nickys]

They do enforce capacity rules and they only provide the number of towels and bedding for the number of guests. In the past it was possible to "sneak" an extra guest in but they would just need to bring their own supplies. Now with magic bands and FP+ it's a little harder. You could still technically do it but the "extra" guests wouldn't be on the reservation so no magic band or advance FP booking. I guess if they had an AP it would work.

To your point, they could limit the occupancy to less than available bed spaces if they wanted to but they currently don't. I guess they could just replace the sleeper couch and chairs with a regular sofa and chair and do it that way.

They kind of do limit the occupancy to less than the available bed spaces in some 2 beds I think.

As in a 2 bed lock-off, they still limit them to 8 don't they? Say at the BCV where you CAN put 5 in a 1-bed, you can only have 8 max in a 2 bed. In fact you should be able to have 10 (5 in studio, 5 in the 1-bed)...?

It's kind of inconsistent

 

[correcaminos]

They kind of do limit the occupancy to less than the available bed spaces in some 2 beds I think.

As in a 2 bed lock-off, they still limit them to 8 don't they? Say at the BCV where you CAN put 5 in a 1-bed, you can only have 8 max in a 2 bed. In fact you should be able to have 10 (5 in studio, 5 in the 1-bed)...?

It's kind of inconsistent

It's 9 there. Just not bedding for 9 in a dedicated. In the 2 bed lock offs there you get 1 king, one queen, one sleeper sofa and then the murphy bed. So in that case a lock off would be a bonus over a dedicated.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Not to further derail the thread, but has there been anything credible in terms of DVC being part of the CBR and/or CSR expansions? I would expect those to offer something different in terms of room configuration.

 

[nickys]

Not to further derail the thread, but has there been anything credible in terms of DVC being part of the CBR and/or CSR expansions? I would expect those to offer something different in terms of room configuration.

Well the Riviera Resort is DVC. That has been confirmed. (That's the CBR development, not really an expansion 'cos they're replacing sections).

Nothing yet about rooms, occupancy or any details at all! I reckon it'll be at least a year before they give any details.

 

[correcaminos]

Well the Riviera Resort is DVC. That has been confirmed. (That's the CBR development, not really an expansion 'cos they're replacing sections).

Nothing yet about rooms, occupancy or any details at all! I reckon it'll be at least a year before they give any details.

The only details they gave were a taller building with rooftop views of fireworks and will be on the Skyliner as the last stop before the IG. Otherwise we don't even know if it is the Mexican, French or other Riviera theme wise.

So in away the CBR rumors were true, but not entirely as it seemingly is a stand alone resort.

 

[GoofGoof]

Not to further derail the thread, but has there been anything credible in terms of DVC being part of the CBR and/or CSR expansions? I would expect those to offer something different in terms of room configuration.

There's a thread on Riviera (which is on the former site of a portion of CBR but is a separate resort) but there's not much concrete info to be had. I think they only announced its existence because it's a stop on the gondolas and they had a map of the gondola stations they showed at D23.

100% of Poly points have been declared into DVC inventory so they should be finishing up selling the few remaining points and ramping up sales on Copper Creek at Wilderness Lodge. It will probably be a year or two before we start getting better details. Current speculation is Riviera will have a mix of room types as opposed to a project like Poly which is only Studios.