What's Your Idea for the Next Upcharge / Money Making Experience?

[flynnibus]

You're referring to an unbundled vs bundled ticket model. Guess what? Airlines can't make money on the old model. Even today, airlines have an awful business that practically makes no money, at least with any predictability or consistency. Why do you think Warren Buffett has said never invest in an airline stock?

I went to Wharton...done case studies on airlines before. Southwest had some impact, but they are peanuts compared to the big boys in terms of routes, miles, and cities serviced...particularly internationally.

The reason they've moved to a fee based model is because the wild swings in commodity prices, high competition, high maintenance and capital costs, etc constantly pressure their profitability. They have to sell snacks, charge for bags, pack planes, and charge fees to even stay viable.

The days of no change fees, fully refundable tickets, food, drinks, and roomy planes are gone...for a reason. It doesn't work.

Disney certainly isn't the airline industry and hasn't moved to this model, but it's similar in that Disney is going to make very little on park tickets. They have enormous capital expense, labor cost, maintenance costs, etc just to open their doors. They are going to make money on the food, merchandise, and special events - the incremental cash you pay to do stuff while in the park. Nothing wrong with that.

It's why I told to go read some case studies because I knew your basis...

They had price competition from carriers that ran more efficient. That established price competition they would be measured by. It wasn't that the old models were not sustainable, it was their big bloated carcasses that tried to do everything blew up when labor strained them, the economy hit their customer base, and commodity prices kicked them while they were down. The "new" competition had more efficient route choices, cheaper labor, cheaper aircraft, and a customer approach that lead to loyalty and appeal.. instead of disdain. Southwest proved that smaller could still hit the critical mass needed and yet could still afford to expand profitable.

The old airlines collapsed under their own weight... and their solution has been consolidation to try to reduce costs, contract to reduce empty seats, and drive new revenue streams through fees.

The shift is not one that is necessary to work as an airline, it was one to save THOSE airlines. At the end we still have the same bloated big carriers... just carrying the carcasses of their buddies. There is a reason they can quickly discount those fees as part of marketing and customer retention... they don't carry the margin of operating the route.

What they proved wasn't sustainable was the union+pension model that also crushed the auto industry

 

[flynnibus]

What specifically have they started charging for that you had free before, apples to apples? Don't say fireworks viewing because it's still 90% free in terms of the areas you can go, plus they added value to the part you pay for in special seating area, food, limited people, etc.

This is a loaded question. If Disney offered the exact same thing (true apples to apples) without any perceived value add.... no one would buy it. Duh. So Disney has to add things to market it as an upsell... reserved seating areas, food, access to snort her drop off, etc.

We could go down the list of things that used to be free, but no longer... but you won't accept it as I won't waste the time. Or we can look at the things Disney manipulated to create new paid offerings... (like the new morning access, etc) but you'll just say "that's the business today" it's not worth arguing with you. You literally have been the least imaginative, least informed, and most copy-cat graduate level grad I've ever encountered. It has severely lowered my impression of Penn.

 

[flynnibus]

What @KevinYee 's article fails to distinguish between is the idea of new experiences that were not possible prior to the offering... and the "manufactured" packaging of things that you could generally do before... but Disney adding in something to ease something that was maybe painful before (usually associated with crowds).

Offering hotdogs vs steaks is not the same thing as these new offerings. That's simply tiered offerings for different price points. Yes that is not "everyone is equal"... but the Disney message was not that everyone is EQUAL but that everyone is equally important. Your cast member should be just as courteous at the hot dog cart as the cast member at the steak house. The hot dog customer should be satisfied wither their hot dog... not be told/feel "well what did you expect... you bought a hot dog"

The customer riding the A ticket was expected to have a good time too... not just the guy riding the E ticket.

What is not covered by Kevin is that many of these offerings are about avoiding issues that Disney has allowed to fester. The biggest attraction to many of these parties is avoiding the crowd. Things like dining packages... the main value is not having to deal with fighting to get tickets or a seat.

People are not upgrading from a hotdog (to continue the tiered service analogy) for better food... they are buying "avoidance" of less desirable conditions. Conditions that Disney has ownership of to improve for all.

Things like fireworks cruises are a completely different experience... almost private boat parties with fireworks. Where as fireworks parties are about buying reserved space so you don't have to fight the crowd.

These are not simply "options" as some like to point out... Disney is monetizing avoiding negatives of a Disney vacation. THAT is why these rub so many people wrong. Instead of improving the experience for all, Disney is creating class separation with "if you are willing to pay, we will take the pain away". THAT is why it's counter the the philosophies that made Disney great

 

[21stamps]

What @KevinYee 's article fails to distinguish between is the idea of new experiences that were not possible prior to the offering... and the "manufactured" packaging of things that you could generally do before... but Disney adding in something to ease something that was maybe painful before (usually associated with crowds).

Offering hotdogs vs steaks is not the same thing as these new offerings. That's simply tiered offerings for different price points. Yes that is not "everyone is equal"... but the Disney message was not that everyone is EQUAL but that everyone is equally important. Your cast member should be just as courteous at the hot dog cart as the cast member at the steak house. The hot dog customer should be satisfied wither their hot dog... not be told/feel "well what did you expect... you bought a hot dog"

The customer riding the A ticket was expected to have a good time too... not just the guy riding the E ticket.

What is not covered by Kevin is that many of these offerings are about avoiding issues that Disney has allowed to fester. The biggest attraction to many of these parties is avoiding the crowd. Things like dining packages... the main value is not having to deal with fighting to get tickets or a seat.

People are not upgrading from a hotdog (to continue the tiered service analogy) for better food... they are buying "avoidance" of less desirable conditions. Conditions that Disney has ownership of to improve for all.

Things like fireworks cruises are a completely different experience... almost private boat parties with fireworks. Where as fireworks parties are about buying reserved space so you don't have to fight the crowd.

These are not simply "options" as some like to point out... Disney is monetizing avoiding negatives of a Disney vacation. THAT is why these rub so many people wrong. Instead of improving the experience for all, Disney is creating class separation with "if you are willing to pay, we will take the pain away". THAT is why it's counter the the philosophies that made Disney great

I finally understand you. You view someone paying extra for a "convenience" as avoiding a problem created by the company itself.

I don't view it that way, and that's why we disagree. Crowds have always and will always be at any amusement park, theme park, concert, etc. When people buy pre or after hours tickets at Disney it's the most similar experience to buying an Express Pass at Universal or Fast Lane Pass at any amusement park. It's the same as buying "VIP" tickets to an outdoor Dave Matthews show. Those "VIP" tickets do not get you special seating- what they get you is - a separate entrance into the amphitheater away from the long line, and entrance to an area with it's own bar and restrooms away from the masses.

None of these companies are creating lines or crowds to force someone to pay to avoid them, they are just offereing people the choice to avoid if they want.

 

[flynnibus]

I finally understand you. You view someone paying extra for a "convenience" as avoiding a problem created by the company itself.

"Created" is too strong of a word that conveys intent. I'm not saying these are problems sets out to create - but they are problems Disney should own to improve for all. not simply offer a paid bypass. That is what creates the class split and fails on the Disney ideals.

A great example of this is simply Fastpass. Disney could have made that a paid service right from the start. But they didn't - obviously knowing they could. It is a "convenience" in your world you easily would have paid for. But Disney offered the service to everyone.

And to your crowds point... yes crowds will always be present that doesn't mean you can't improve the customer experience. Disney was the master at this -- taking the problem and working out how to improve the customer experience without simply offering paid bypass. It's why we have the elaborate preshows and covered queues that we have now. It's why we have things such as attractions that eat thousands of guests an hour... or M&Gs have multiple rooms hidden from guests.. or multiple ways to get from place to place... or offering guest services in different spots (like dtd)... or changing the kinds of buses used, etc

We can look at many ways Disney has improved their product to make the customer experience BETTER verse simply saying "well we will just offer a higher priced version for those that don't want to wait"

 

[21stamps]

"Created" is too strong of a word that conveys intent. I'm not saying these are problems sets out to create - but they are problems Disney should own to improve for all. not simply offer a paid bypass. That is what creates the class split and fails on the Disney ideals.

A great example of this is simply Fastpass. Disney could have made that a paid service right from the start. But they didn't - obviously knowing they could. It is a "convenience" in your world you easily would have paid for. But Disney offered the service to everyone.

And to your crowds point... yes crowds will always be present that doesn't mean you can't improve the customer experience. Disney was the master at this -- taking the problem and working out how to improve the customer experience without simply offering paid bypass. It's why we have the elaborate preshows and covered queues that we have now. It's why we have things such as attractions that eat thousands of guests an hour... or M&Gs have multiple rooms hidden from guests.. or multiple ways to get from place to place... or offering guest services in different spots (like dtd)... or changing the kinds of buses used, etc

We can look at many ways Disney has improved their product to make the customer experience BETTER verse simply saying "well we will just offer a higher priced version for those that don't want to wait"

Here's my take it on it...

I think Disney has not offered a paid Fast Pass because of a few reasons. First and Foremost- I think the price point is almost impossible to get right. I also think that with just the sheer volume of people there is no way to know how many would actually purchase it, and what the resulting FP lines would be. If they offered a paid version then they could not (should not) make you choose a time to do that attraction, which could result in a long wait even with the FP... and then how many people would complain about it if that happened? I probably would.

We know that the entire FP system is to try and disperse crowds, so they definitely are trying in that respect. However, with parades and shows there will always only be a limited area that will be great, and I don't see how that could be expanded beyond what is already there.

As for your last part, I think it's also important to look at how much we have changed as a society. I mentioned this on another thread- When I was a kid and our family of 5 was at Disney World, or an amusement park, or at a pier on the Wildwood Boardwalk...We waited in long lines. We had no other choice and there was no other option available. I grew up in an upper middle class household, and I can promise you that if one year at WDW there would have suddenly been an option to pay to skip the lines, my father would not have purchased it. We would have still waited like everyone else. He would view it as a waste of money. I think a lot of people back then had a similar mentality. Now society and our general mindsets have shifted. We have more conveniences than any generation before us. It has made us want everything "right now", from the Chipotle app, to the Starbucks app, to ordering an item from Target on your phone to be picked up 2 hours later- just so we don't have to deal with walking to the aisle, grabbing it, and then standing in a check out line...all so we can maximize time efficiency in our day. I think everywhere from an amphitheater to a theme park realizes that this mentality now exists, and that some people will pay for it. I feel that is the only reason that it is offered..because they are taking advantage of our new attitudes and outlooks.. and I think they are correct as a business to take advantage of that.

I will happily pay an extra $30 at a DMB show to not have to wait in a long line for a restroom or to order a drink. I will pay to get into MK an hour early, and pay a little more for our dinner to have a better viewing spot at F!. I would not pay $200 per day for a paid FP system at MK, and I think that's where the price point would need to be...I don't see the possibility of offering a paid and free FP system, it has to be one or the other, and offering the paid could backfire on the crowds and wait times in a devastating way. I do not think the risk is worth the reward in this scenario for Disney decision makers.

 

[flynnibus]

I don't see the possibility of offering a paid and free FP system, it has to be one or the other, and offering the paid could backfire on the crowds and wait times in a devastating way. I do not think the risk is worth the reward in this scenario for Disney decision makers.

You are thinking about this as today. The point of the example is not now... but when they introduced it. You would have added the exact system you have now but paid instead of free. They could have done and could not be any worst impact than it is now.. where everyone has it.

The point of bringing it up is that would have been a slam dunk to monetize... and they didn't.

 

[21stamps]

You are thinking about this as today. The point of the example is not now... but when they introduced it. You would have added the exact system you have now but paid instead of free. They could have done and could not be any worst impact than it is now.. where everyone has it.

The point of bringing it up is that would have been a slam dunk to monetize... and they didn't.

I actually think that was the dilemma before the first FP system was introduced. I don't have any insider info on this, only my own thoughts of what would make sense to deal with the raising crowd levels. I think it was in the interest of their customer that they did not place a price on it. Doing so wouldn't shorten lines or disperse people. A paid Fast lane system has never done that. Fast lane pass people make up a very small percentage of park visitors.. regardless of Universal, or Cedar Point, or Six Flags. That system makes it very convenient for the few who purchase it, but it doesn't alleviate wait times for the people that don't.

 

[flynnibus]

I think it was in the interest of their customer that they did not place a price on it.

Yes... in interest of the whole customer base.. not just the buyers...

That system makes it very convenient for the few who purchase it, but it doesn't alleviate wait times for the people that don't.

Sounds a lot like a certain new bus offer eh??

That's why the example works to illustrate the restraint used before... vs what Disney is doing now.

 

[21stamps]

Yes... in interest of the whole customer base.. not just the buyers...



Sounds a lot like a certain new bus offer eh??

That's why the example works to illustrate the restraint used before... vs what Disney is doing now.

It's exactly the same as the bus scenario. I'm just ok with it. I don't feel like either one inconveniences me if I choose not to partake in the "extra". The hopper bus even less so.. Fast lane people can "jump" you in line, causing you to wait til the next train or cycle, the bus has 0 effect. With the Fast lane thing though.. it doesn't bother me. More accurately- I silently groan but i don't begrudge them. They chose to pay, I didn't.

 

[PhotoDave219]

Pay toilets.

 

[flynnibus]

It's exactly the same as the bus scenario. I'm just ok with it.

That's it... you see how it's a change, but you are just willing to pay and not look beyond that one transaction. While others are bothered by the shift, because the past behavior and approach was part of what turned them onto being such loyal Disney fans. And why that change is so bothersome. It's not just "an option" - it's the latest example of the old Disney being tossed aside.

 

[EvilQueen-T]

Other theme parks charge for vip lines aka their versions of fast passes. I think if disney could figure out how to move into doing that without taking a huge hit to their image since they've been touting how much better they are because their fast passes have been free they'd do it in a heart beat. Just like they've done with the morning and evening events which are just people paying $120 each for extra magic hours that we've had for free for over a decade.

 

[21stamps]

Other theme parks charge for vip lines aka their versions of fast passes. I think if disney could figure out how to move into doing that without taking a huge hit to their image since they've been touting how much better they are because their fast passes have been free they'd do it in a heart beat. Just like they've done with the morning and evening events which are just people paying $120 each for extra magic hours that we've had for free for over a decade.

The difference is at EMH, which I do like (pm only), I have never been able to ride 7DMT 5 consecutive times with absolutely 0 wait and not even having to walk through the queue again.

That's it... you see how it's a change, but you are just willing to pay and not look beyond that one transaction. While others are bothered by the shift, because the past behavior and approach was part of what turned them onto being such loyal Disney fans. And why that change is so bothersome. It's not just "an option" - it's the latest example of the old Disney being tossed aside.

I see it as a change that our society now has a want for. A want that wasn't there at Disney World's inception..or for many years after, but one that exists now.

 

[flynnibus]

I see it as a change that our society now has a want for. A want that wasn't there at Disney World's inception..or for many years after, but one that exists now.

As if... society wouldn't be happy with just an efficient park hopper bus for everyone?

Like they said... you can lead a horse to water but you can't force them to drink.

I'm still trying to figure out if the source is a trust fund... or other form of annuity...

 

[21stamps]

As if... society wouldn't be happy with just an efficient park hopper bus for everyone?

Like they said... you can lead a horse to water but you can't force them to drink.

I'm still trying to figure out if the source is a trust fund... or other form of annuity...

Society has shown that they want VIP experiences, unique experiences, time saving experiences..and that they will pay for them. That's evident in almost entertainment example that exists right now.

If a special "efficient park hopper bus" existed for everyone then ALL people's ticket prices would increase. You seem keen on fairness, so how would that be fair? A bus system exists to hop from park to park..it's free. If you want special backstage access then that is an additional charge, I just don't see why people would think that was owed to them.

 

[Bandini]

I'm still trying to figure out if the source is a trust fund... or other form of annuity...

I still have to wonder how many people pay for their vacations through criminal activities. Like credit card fraud. Remember that waiter a few years ago who paid for multiple Disney vacations by using other people's credit cards?
Or else there's always the option of having huge credit card bills.

The up sells are not beyond my budget, but I just can't justify the additional expense.

 

[21stamps]

I still have to wonder how many people pay for their vacations through criminal activities. Like credit card fraud. Remember that waiter a few years ago who paid for multiple Disney vacations by using other people's credit cards?
Or else there's always the option of having huge credit card bills.

The up sells are not beyond my budget, but I just can't justify the additional expense.

I'm going to try and help you, since it seems that you only read certain words instead of entire responses..

Your last sentence- "I can't justify.."
That's it. That's all there is to the story. That's WHY options are offered.
Not everyone will justify every or even any of the upsells.
Guess what? Some people can't even justify staying at a Disney resort.
Guess what else? Some people can't justify the cost of a Disney World ticket.

People decide what they want to do with their money.. end of story.

Your neighbor may think that your WDW vacation is a frivolous and unjustified expense, with or without an upsells experience.

All of these things, including the destination itself, are "extras".

When you can grasp the idea that a Disney vacation is not a necessity then it may help you understand the context of everything else.

 

[CdnDznyLuvr]

I wish FP+ was an upcharge, this would weed down the people using it and allow people that stayed on resort/paid the upcharge to get more and better times

I actually like this idea - similar to what Universal does now. If you are staying at the deluxe resorts, the Fastpass+ is included, otherwise it is a paid add-on option. It would definitely cut down on the Fastpass lines

 

[CdnDznyLuvr]

I think Disney has not offered a paid Fast Pass because of a few reasons. First and Foremost- I think the price point is almost impossible to get right. I also think that with just the sheer volume of people there is no way to know how many would actually purchase it, and what the resulting FP lines would be. If they offered a paid version then they could not (should not) make you choose a time to do that attraction, which could result in a long wait even with the FP... and then how many people would complain about it if that happened? I probably would.

Have you used Universal's Express Pass system? Because the Disney Fastpass+ system is free, everyone takes advantage of it and with the way the new Fastpass+ system is set up (vs the old paper passes), the lines are sometimes longer than the regular lines. I've never seen long Express Pass lines at Universal like there is with the Disney Fastpass+ lines. Going to a paid Fastpss+ system would cut down on the Fastpass+ lines and return it to the way it should be.