WDW To MCO Rail

[Pioneer Hall]

There are a few problems with the logic that I am sensing in this thread...

1. As much as most of us want to see a greener environment; at the end of the day this is all still business. The people who work on these talks are businesspeople and politicians. While they would love to get greener ways of transport, that isn't their main concern. Their main concern is making money for whatever jurisdiction they represent. Let us not forget that Disney is a publicly traded company. The first priority of any publicly traded company is to generate returns and profits for their shareholders. Making magic and going green are secondary to that number one purpose (sorry...but it is true). If Disney already has a functioning system in place, they aren't going to break the bank just because of the environment. Same goes for the politicians and city people that could stand to win or loss from such an investment like this.

2. On a more functional level, buses overall are more reliable than any other form of transportation that they can work with right now. There is a reason (other than cost) that buses are still the main transporter on WDW property. When a bus breaks down, another can be immediately put into service with almost no affect to the rest of the system. When a monorail or train breaks down it triggers a very long and time consuming chain of events (towing, assessing the area, having to stop every other vehicle on that track, etc). Disney already has a very reliable and functioning system, which does exactly what they want it to do. Why fix something if it isn't broken...even if it would generate better green results.

3. I believe that the amount that is actually in the plan is about 12 billion for mass transit projects. This is not a lot of money when it comes to a nation that needs plenty of work on its mass transit system. As much as I would like to see a rail system for the house of mouse, I would be somewhat appalled to not see this money going towards major city transit revitalization. The New York City subway system is an absolute mess most of the time. Trains are packed to the brim with commuters, they have outdated equipment, and the stations are disgusting. They keep raising prices, but it doesn't solve a problem that is just growing too fast. I speak of this from a lot of experience, and I am sure the problem is prevalent in other parts of the country as well.

So, even with federal money, I see this project never happening (or at least not happening for a very long time). There are just too many other problems in the country where that money can be used, and the DME system works fine (from a functional level).

 

[miles1]

What I find stupid about the whole railroad thing is I taken I-4 maybe a hundred times and had "Zero" and I mean "Zero" problems.

At rush hour maybe a dozen times and the traffic is minor compared with a major city. No bumper to bumper traffic jams where it took me an hour or more to travel a few dozen yards.

But...... You know I am not American so I really can not care much about how America wastes money it really does not have.

Not to offend any Floridians, but in some ways I agree with Astro. In the times I've visited WDW and the Orlando Area, I've always found the traffic to move pretty darned well compared to what I'm used to here in the NYC to Hartford corridor. Maybe it's just perspective? Maybe central Floridians have a lesser tolerance for it, since many can remember when there was little to no traffic?:shrug:

 

[TTATraveler]

I'll believe it when I see it.

Same here, it will be nice when it comes to fruition.

 

[TTATraveler]

Not to offend any Floridians, but in some ways I agree with Astro. In the times I've visited WDW and the Orlando Area, I've always found the traffic to move pretty darned well compared to what I'm used to here in the NYC to Hartford corridor. Maybe it's just perspective? Maybe central Floridians have a lesser tolerance for it, since many can remember when there was little to no traffic?:shrug:

I am originally from NJ and luckily I went against the flow of traffic both to and from work. That being said, I had to commute to several project sites in NYC, mostly in the Bronx, but also in Manhattan. Yes, our traffic isn't as bad as sitting in bumper to bumper traffic to get over the GWB or into the Lincoln Tunnel. The problem here is that 417 goes so far out to the east and frequency and cost of the tolls make it not feasible to travel for a lot of people. That forces everyone onto I-4. The other problem is with a lack of roads. I always had several ways to get where I was going back in NJ. In Central Florida, that isn't always the case. Our roads are generally 2-3 lanes in each direction. Parts of I-4 and the Turnpike have 4 lanes.

From my perspective, the traffic is bad here. I used to travel 37 miles one way to work and it would take 35-40 minutes. Now, I travel 17 miles one way to work and it takes the same amount of time.

 

[Pioneer Hall]

I am originally from NJ and luckily I went against the flow of traffic both to and from work. That being said, I had to commute to several project sites in NYC, mostly in the Bronx, but also in Manhattan. Yes, our traffic isn't as bad as sitting in bumper to bumper traffic to get over the GWB or into the Lincoln Tunnel. The problem here is that 417 goes so far out to the east and frequency and cost of the tolls make it not feasible to travel for a lot of people. That forces everyone onto I-4. The other problem is with a lack of roads. I always had several ways to get where I was going back in NJ. In Central Florida, that isn't always the case. Our roads are generally 2-3 lanes in each direction. Parts of I-4 and the Turnpike have 4 lanes.

From my perspective, the traffic is bad here. I used to travel 37 miles one way to work and it would take 35-40 minutes. Now, I travel 17 miles one way to work and it takes the same amount of time.

The places that you would be going to that need the GWB would have to be accessed by a toll road. You would either have to take the GWB, one of the Tunnels to the city, or the Tappan Zee. All of those bridges carry lofty tolls as well.

 

[DisneyCane]

The advantage, as I see it, is to ease traffic congestion and displace fossil fuels which we are too reliant on IMO.

Do trains run on Magic? A lot run on Diesel and the rest on electricity. This is one of those things that I don't think people realize when talking about electric trains or electric cars. Electricity is largely produced by burning fossil fuels. Sure 20% or so is produced with nuclear power and a few percent by hydroelectric and wind but turning things electric doesn't magically replace fossil fuels.

Before we spend too much on wind and other alternative energy let's fully investigate the energy it takes to produce windmill blades and poles so we know what we're truly saving.

 

[cloudboy]

I agree that the Orlando Metro area traffic is really not that bad compared to many other parts of the country, although to someone in Central Florida it is horrendous. However, most tourists don't see that traffic, either. Tourists tend to stay south on I-4, mostly below Sand Lake Road. The really bad traffic starts around Millenium, and heads north from there. Many tourists never even venture into the true Orlando area. It's not really the tourist traffic that is backing up.

Another thing to consider - the airport, and most of I Drive, is in Orlando. Disney is NOT in Orlando. Orlando the city does not make money off of people in Disney, they make money off of the tourists who are going to Disney but spending time outside of Disney shopping, dining, and sleeping on I Drive. the last think that they want people to do is bypass I Drive to go stay in Lake Buena Vista or Kissimmee. Orlando DOES make a lot of money on the OCC, and there are quite a few travelers bound for there and other area hotels that are not necessarily spending their whole vacation in Disney itself.

Overall, the tourist industry in Central Florida really relies on people being able to roam freely. Personally, I am much more interested in a system that would run I drive, perhaps even as far as Universal, down to 192, in that it would provide an additional draw to tourists to spend money outside the park. Obviously this is not what Disney wants. But Florida is not a state that has shown much interest in spending money on infrastructure or on public projects to begin with. And there are far more pressing needs than to provide an additional service for tourists that is not going to bring a substantial increase in revenue.

 

[hokielutz]

Orlando has become a major city.

The advantage, as I see it, is to ease traffic congestion and displace fossil fuels which we are too reliant on IMO. So an airport to WDW link is a system that could have a MAJOR impact for a relatively small investment. It would eliminate the Magical Express and thousands of rental cars that jam I-4, along with taxis and other busses that serve LBV. Because the right of way is mostly available along the new expressway to the airport, I think it could be done rather easily.

I think a deal where the Federal/State/Local government builds the track and Disney provides the trains could work quite well.

Yes,

Definitely a major impact.

It would eliminate or greatly reduce the need for the ME, need for the southern toll rd, Rental Car agencies, Taxies, and Bus services.

If you talk about all the above being impacted, then this would have a net negative impact on the Orlando economy. This would eliminate a great number of those employed by these services.

Not saying I am staunchly opposed to this idea, because I would like a more direct link to Disney, but the way you frame your argument shows there isn't respect for those employed by these service industries in Orlando.

 

[marni1971]

I`m still looking for this `jam` on I-4. Apparently we were in it at 5pm one weekday last July. How I wish we had `jams` like that in Manchester. More like a bit of a slowdown in traffic.

Until Universal and Disney work together on this there won`t be any mass transit system from MCO to the parks no matter where funds come from. And the moon will turn a bright shade of blue before that happens.

 

[jt04]

Yes,

Definitely a major impact.

It would eliminate or greatly reduce the need for the ME, need for the southern toll rd, Rental Car agencies, Taxies, and Bus services.

If you talk about all the above being impacted, then this would have a net negative impact on the Orlando economy. This would eliminate a great number of those employed by these services.

Not saying I am staunchly opposed to this idea, because I would like a more direct link to Disney, but the way you frame your argument shows there isn't respect for those employed by these service industries in Orlando.

Not true at all!!!!! But sooner or later we are going to have to get serious in this country about our dependency on energy imports or those "employed people" you refer to.......won't be!

It amazes me how short-sighted so many americans have become. We had better deal with these energy issues and soon, or we will have much bigger concerns than whether some bus driver's jobs get displaced, as will the bus drivers!:brick:

 

[jt04]

I`m still looking for this `jam` on I-4. Apparently we were in it at 5pm one weekday last July. How I wish we had `jams` like that in Manchester. More like a bit of a slowdown in traffic.

Until Universal and Disney work together on this there won`t be any mass transit system from MCO to the parks no matter where funds come from. And the moon will turn a bright shade of blue before that happens.

If you can't see it thru the prism of traffic jams and energy conservation then look at it in terms of carbon footprints and global warming. Prince Charles is an expert on the subject.:animwink:

I-4 is not just a road from Orlando to Disney World. :lol::wave:

 

[TP2000]

I`m still looking for this `jam` on I-4. Apparently we were in it at 5pm one weekday last July. How I wish we had `jams` like that in Manchester. More like a bit of a slowdown in traffic.

That's just it, you won't find any real traffic jams in Orlando. Orlando is a small Southern city with a horrible big city crime rate, but no big city traffic.

In my opinion, any light rail system built in Orlando would primairly be serving the tourists. As such, the right of way should align itself only with tourist destinations between MCO and the biggest tourist destination in the state, Walt Disney World. Stops at Universal, I-Drive and Sea World would be needed to get the rest of the major players on board, but it looks like with those stops Disney would balk.

So that kills any hope for a rail system in Orlando between the airport and the theme parks.

 

[jt04]

That's just it, you won't find any real traffic jams in Orlando. Orlando is a small Southern city with a horrible big city crime rate, but no big city traffic.

In my opinion, any light rail system built in Orlando would primairly be serving the tourists. As such, the right of way should align itself only with tourist destinations between MCO and the biggest tourist destination in the state, Walt Disney World. Stops at Universal, I-Drive and Sea World would be needed to get the rest of the major players on board, but it looks like with those stops Disney would balk.

So that kills any hope for a rail system in Orlando between the airport and the theme parks.

That is why it should be done without them. It could also be done as two seperate lines. One from MCO to UNI/SW/I-drive which is an extremely short distance really. And another line from south of the airport to WDW. Probably a total of 25 miles of track that could really have a major impact. Again the feds and state of Florida could build the track and the parks could buy the trains. A perfect chance for some gov't/private sector synergy where everyone wins.

 

[TTATraveler]

I agree that the Orlando Metro area traffic is really not that bad compared to many other parts of the country, although to someone in Central Florida it is horrendous. However, most tourists don't see that traffic, either. Tourists tend to stay south on I-4, mostly below Sand Lake Road. The really bad traffic starts around Millenium, and heads north from there. Many tourists never even venture into the true Orlando area. It's not really the tourist traffic that is backing up.

Another thing to consider - the airport, and most of I Drive, is in Orlando. Disney is NOT in Orlando. Orlando the city does not make money off of people in Disney, they make money off of the tourists who are going to Disney but spending time outside of Disney shopping, dining, and sleeping on I Drive. the last think that they want people to do is bypass I Drive to go stay in Lake Buena Vista or Kissimmee. Orlando DOES make a lot of money on the OCC, and there are quite a few travelers bound for there and other area hotels that are not necessarily spending their whole vacation in Disney itself.

Overall, the tourist industry in Central Florida really relies on people being able to roam freely. Personally, I am much more interested in a system that would run I drive, perhaps even as far as Universal, down to 192, in that it would provide an additional draw to tourists to spend money outside the park. Obviously this is not what Disney wants. But Florida is not a state that has shown much interest in spending money on infrastructure or on public projects to begin with. And there are far more pressing needs than to provide an additional service for tourists that is not going to bring a substantial increase in revenue.

Nicely put:sohappy:. I am amazed how many people think that Disney is Orlando and how many don't realize that there is actually a city of Orlando. The true crappy traffic is nowhere even close to the tourist areas. Orange County is the one who benefits from tax dollars collected from Disney tourists. A regional light rail system would benefit more people then just an exclusive Disney only rail.

 

[TTATraveler]

That's just it, you won't find any real traffic jams in Orlando. Orlando is a small Southern city with a horrible big city crime rate, but no big city traffic.

In my opinion, any light rail system built in Orlando would primairly be serving the tourists. As such, the right of way should align itself only with tourist destinations between MCO and the biggest tourist destination in the state, Walt Disney World. Stops at Universal, I-Drive and Sea World would be needed to get the rest of the major players on board, but it looks like with those stops Disney would balk.

So that kills any hope for a rail system in Orlando between the airport and the theme parks.

According to Forbes.com:

10 Worst Cities for Commuters:

No. 4: Orlando, Fla.

Like its Southern neighbor Miami, Orlando's commuting ills stem from a public transportation system that doesn't service a high share of the population and a population that's spread out. Here, only 34% of commuters get to their jobs in less than 20 minutes, which is the ninth worst rate in the country. The main advantage it has over Miami is size. Orlando has less than half the workers on area roads, and fewer people are traveling an hour or more to work.


No. 1= Atlanta, No. 2 = Detroit, No. 3 = Miami, No. 5 = Dallas, No. 6 = Tampa, No. 7 - Washington DC, No. 8 = Houston, No. 9 = Los Angeles, 10 = San Francisco

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[Mr.EPCOT]

Forget the mass transit, I'm all for Walt Disney World just building it's own airport.

 

[jt04]

According to Forbes.com:

10 Worst Cities for Commuters:

No. 4: Orlando, Fla.

Like its Southern neighbor Miami, Orlando's commuting ills stem from a public transportation system that doesn't service a high share of the population and a population that's spread out. Here, only 34% of commuters get to their jobs in less than 20 minutes, which is the ninth worst rate in the country. The main advantage it has over Miami is size. Orlando has less than half the workers on area roads, and fewer people are traveling an hour or more to work.


No. 1= Atlanta, No. 2 = Detroit, No. 3 = Miami, No. 5 = Dallas, No. 6 = Tampa, No. 7 - Washington DC, No. 8 = Houston, No. 9 = Los Angeles, 10 = San Francisco


​

I knew it!!!!

And to think a great deal of the problem could be so easily fixed.

Great post!

 

[TTATraveler]

The places that you would be going to that need the GWB would have to be accessed by a toll road. You would either have to take the GWB, one of the Tunnels to the city, or the Tappan Zee. All of those bridges carry lofty tolls as well.

The bridges and tunnels do carry lofty tolls, especially the Verazanno, I won't deny that. It is the frequency of tolls and their fees that are out of whack here. For instance, I am on the 408 (East-West Expressway) for all of 10 miles. In that 10 miles, I pay 2 tolls (which are separated by all of 3 miles). One is $.75 and the other is $.50. Add in my exit ramp toll on the 429 and I am at $3.00 for a round trip to work. That's $3.00 for a 34 mile round trip commute. When I compare that to my former $1.90 round trip toll for 74 miles in NJ, you see where I am coming from. The NJTPK and GSP seem like a bargain per mile to travel compared to here.

 

[techiegsy]

How about, Instead of a train, extend the people mover and speed it up. Then link it to MCO and there we go, a direct route straight to Tommorowland. Hay, there could even be some show scenes along the way....
:lookaroun

 

[Kamikaze]

I knew it!!!!

And to think a great deal of the problem could be so easily fixed.

Great post!

But the system you are proposing would do nothing to cure the city of Orlando's traffic.