WDW Permits Part 5

jt04

jt04

Well-Known Member
danlb_2000 said:
Permit today for demolition backstage at Magic Kingdom. Anyone know what BOH stands for?

BOH Artist Prep Trailer - Demo

Here is a picture of the building referenced in the permit. Splash Mountain is in the upper right corner of the picture.

ArtistPrepBuilding.png
Click to expand...

I'd guess that building is just too far gone from the looks of it. Doubt it means much at this point. But could also indicate this is the beginning of a process for eventual expansion. A "pre-demo" perhaps to add a word to my lexicon.
 
Tom

Tom

Beta Return
danlb_2000 said:
While going through the notices of commencement on the Orange County public records web site I ran across another interesting type of document, construction liens. These are particularly interesting because they show how much Disney is paying contractors for various projects. Here is a recently sampling.


Nassal Company, Fabrication & Installation of Character Icons for Art of Animation, Total: $1,711,879.
Premus of Orlando/JCB Construction, Install ucrete flooring system, labor and materials for Fantasyland Area Development, Total: $29,880
Central Environmental Services, Inc, Demolition of Dumbo Ride Ring, $410,859
ERMCO of Florida, electrical contracting for Tomorroland Bridge, $23,164
Bruns Inc, Instllation of icons and application of finished for Art of Animation, $210,591
Mark's Custom Kits, Inc, Fiberglass design, fabrication, assembly and installation at Country Bear Jamboree, $134.000
Click to expand...

THIS is the kind of info that would shut a lot of people up. Between the listing of permits filed by Disney, and now the small sampling of project cots, it's hard to argue that Disney isn't investing serious cash into its properties.

The unfortunate part is that 90% of these projects take place outside the realm of guest experiences - so the novice would think that nothing is happening, when it's quite obvious that there is a serious outlay of cash being spent routinely. Almost a half million to remove the old Dumbo.

BTW, are these actual liens filed, or forms that document contract amounts in the event a lien is filed? I suspect the latter, because I have it on good authority that Disney pays timely and there should not be this many actual liens filed against Disney. The fact that ERMCO is on that list is what causes me to think this.
 
danlb_2000

danlb_2000

Premium Member
Original Poster
edwardtc said:
THIS is the kind of info that would shut a lot of people up. Between the listing of permits filed by Disney, and now the small sampling of project cots, it's hard to argue that Disney isn't investing serious cash into its properties.

The unfortunate part is that 90% of these projects take place outside the realm of guest experiences - so the novice would think that nothing is happening, when it's quite obvious that there is a serious outlay of cash being spent routinely. Almost a half million to remove the old Dumbo.

BTW, are these actual liens filed, or forms that document contract amounts in the event a lien is filed? I suspect the latter, because I have it on good authority that Disney pays timely and there should not be this many actual liens filed against Disney. The fact that ERMCO is on that list is what causes me to think this.
Click to expand...

I am pretty sure these are actual liens, here is an example of one..

http://or.occompt.com/recorder/eagl...95.pdf?id=DOC1067S2348.A0&parent=DOC1067S2348

They all show the original contract amount along with what is still owed. Compared to the number of permits filed, there are a very small number of liens. There were only 47 liens this year. I don't know much about construction liens, but could these be cases where Disney didn't pay in full because there is some dispute over the work that was done?
 
dreamscometrue

dreamscometrue

Well-Known Member
edwardtc said:
THIS is the kind of info that would shut a lot of people up. Between the listing of permits filed by Disney, and now the small sampling of project cots, it's hard to argue that Disney isn't investing serious cash into its properties.

The unfortunate part is that 90% of these projects take place outside the realm of guest experiences - so the novice would think that nothing is happening, when it's quite obvious that there is a serious outlay of cash being spent routinely. Almost a half million to remove the old Dumbo.

BTW, are these actual liens filed, or forms that document contract amounts in the event a lien is filed? I suspect the latter, because I have it on good authority that Disney pays timely and there should not be this many actual liens filed against Disney. The fact that ERMCO is on that list is what causes me to think this.
Click to expand...

I agree 100% that this should shut up most reasonable people who can be objective. There are still a small number who will never say anything positive, or admit that the above is a factor, and will continue to complain about 100% of the time. You know who they are, and that's why 'ignore' is awesome! :)

I'd like to add to your great post, if I may, by referring those who may be reading this to a few recent posts over in the 'Eddie Sotto' thread. It's all worth reading, but in the interest of time, and to stay along the lines of your statement, I'm going to refer a few posts, which reminded me of the following very important points...

1. Bob Iger cares very much about detail and quality. So does John Lassiter.

2. TWDC Parks and Resorts has worldwide assets in which to invest annually. Although money is allocated to all parks each year (ie: FLE), there must exist a 'triage' list, and clearly DCA was at the top. I want 'Splash' to get a 6 month refurb as much as the next person, but I focus on WDW all the time. On a worldwide scale, I have no idea what needs attention in Paris, on a cruise ship, etc.

3. The aging infrastructure means that more and more money has to be spent on issues that are out of site of guests. This is perhaps the most important thing for people to understand, and Eddie articulates it well.

Despite all these challenges, I posted in my brief trip report from March, that I'd never seen so many CMs planting, painting, cleaning, etc. ever as I did on that trip. Anyway, enough from me because I could go on and on. Everyone should at the very least check out posts #3426, #3433, #3436 and on pages following 172, #3501 and #3508 (article link) and #3509. Very good info! Enjoy. (Sorry, I didn't know how to link the posts directly.)

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/...nt-state-of-the-parks-part-ii.770938/page-172
 
Master Yoda

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
danlb_2000 said:
I am pretty sure these are actual liens, here is an example of one..

http://or.occompt.com/recorder/eagl...95.pdf?id=DOC1067S2348.A0&parent=DOC1067S2348

They all show the original contract amount along with what is still owed. Compared to the number of permits filed, there are a very small number of liens. There were only 47 liens this year. I don't know much about construction liens, but could these be cases where Disney didn't pay in full because there is some dispute over the work that was done?
Click to expand...
That is one possible scenario.
 
Alektronic

Alektronic

Well-Known Member
dreamscometrue said:
Despite all these challenges, I posted in my brief trip report from March, that I'd never seen so many CMs planting, painting, cleaning, etc. ever as I did on that trip. Anyway, enough from me because I could go on and on. Everyone should at the very least check out posts #3426, #3433, #3436 and on pages following 172, #3501 and #3508 (article link) and #3509. Very good info! Enjoy. (Sorry, I didn't know how to link the posts directly.)

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/...nt-state-of-the-parks-part-ii.770938/page-172
Click to expand...

Are you sure those were CM's and just not outside contractors?
 
dreamscometrue

dreamscometrue

Well-Known Member
Alektronic said:
Are you sure those were CM's and just not outside contractors?
Click to expand...

Not sure. I just saw people (a group of 12 or so) planting near the bus stop at AKL, cleaning between the blocks (weeds perhaps) at POP and wet paint signs everywhere. I'm not sure if they are Disney CMs or outside contractors, but I imagine WDW was paying these people to beautify the property, whoever they were. :)
 
Tom

Tom

Beta Return
danlb_2000 said:
I am pretty sure these are actual liens, here is an example of one..

http://or.occompt.com/recorder/eagl...95.pdf?id=DOC1067S2348.A0&parent=DOC1067S2348

They all show the original contract amount along with what is still owed. Compared to the number of permits filed, there are a very small number of liens. There were only 47 liens this year. I don't know much about construction liens, but could these be cases where Disney didn't pay in full because there is some dispute over the work that was done?
Click to expand...
Master Yoda said:
That is one possible scenario.
Click to expand...

That's one of two most likely scenarios. The other is that Disney paid the General Contractor, and they're sitting on those funds for one reason or another (using them for cash flow, like many GCs are doing these days; Subcontractual disputes being worked out; other GC<>SUB disputes). It's extremely unlikely that Disney "just isn't paying". The only Owners who do that are crooks or who don't have the money - neither of which I would classify Disney.

dreamscometrue said:
I agree 100% that this should shut up most reasonable people who can be objective. There are still a small number who will never say anything positive, or admit that the above is a factor, and will continue to complain about 100% of the time. You know who they are, and that's why 'ignore' is awesome! :)

I'd like to add to your great post, if I may, by referring those who may be reading this to a few recent posts over in the 'Eddie Sotto' thread. It's all worth reading, but in the interest of time, and to stay along the lines of your statement, I'm going to refer a few posts, which reminded me of the following very important points...

1. Bob Iger cares very much about detail and quality. So does John Lassiter.

2. TWDC Parks and Resorts has worldwide assets in which to invest annually. Although money is allocated to all parks each year (ie: FLE), these must exist a 'triage' list, and clearly DCA was at the top. I want 'Splash' to get a 6 month refurb as much as the next person, but I focus on WDW all the time. On a worldwide scale, I have no idea what needs attention in Paris, on a cruise ship, etc.

3. The aging infrastructure means that more and more money has to be spent on issues that are out of site of guests. This is perhaps the most important thing for people to understand, and Eddie articulates it well.

Despite all these challenges, I posted in my brief trip report from March, that I'd never seen so many CMs planting, painting, cleaning, etc. ever as I did on that trip. Anyway, enough from me because I could go on and on. Everyone should at the very least check out posts #3426, #3433, #3436 and on pages following 172, #3501 and #3508 (article link) and #3509. Very good info! Enjoy. (Sorry, I didn't know how to link the posts directly.)

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/...nt-state-of-the-parks-part-ii.770938/page-172
Click to expand...

Great addition to the post. I don't usually read Eddie's threads, so this was a nice summary :). A few of the Debbie Downers on here know all of this is going on, but most are clueless about the sums being spent behind the scenes. Last year and the year before, they replaced the HVAC units on hundreds of buildings. Guests just expect that the A/C works fine all the time, but never appreciate the fact that those units - which run nearly 24/7 - are being replaced well before their life spans have expired.

There are a million more examples like that, and while I'm also on the side of the fence saying they need to spend some money INSIDE the park, I guess I'm technically sitting on top of the fence because I know how much money they're spending behind our backs.

Alektronic said:
Are you sure those were CM's and just not outside contractors?
Click to expand...

When we were there closing down the MK, we saw a handful of Maintenance Personnel (including the guy actually changing light bulbs) who had Disney logos on their uniforms. However, they also subcontract a LOT of work - specifically the real construction work (like replacing a piece of Main Street concrete overnight).
 
danlb_2000

danlb_2000

Premium Member
Original Poster
edwardtc said:
That's one of two most likely scenarios. The other is that Disney paid the General Contractor, and they're sitting on those funds for one reason or another (using them for cash flow, like many GCs are doing these days; Subcontractual disputes being worked out; other GC<>SUB disputes). It's extremely unlikely that Disney "just isn't paying". The only Owners who do that are crooks or who don't have the money - neither of which I would classify Disney.
Click to expand...

Some of these are definitely sub contractors since they explicitly state both the sub and general contractor names.
 
Tom

Tom

Beta Return
danlb_2000 said:
Some of these are definitely sub contractors since they explicitly state both the sub and general contractor names.
Click to expand...

Then it is likely one of the two following situations:

1) Disney paid GC. GC is sitting on Subcontractor money for some reason (cash flow, in-house turmoil, subcontract arguments). Even if there are ongoing discussions between GC and Sub, Sub will still file a lien against Disney, with the hopes that Disney will step in and put pressure on GC to pay off the Sub. We've recently had this situation take place...and I'm personally in a situation with one of my projects where this COULD happen. I've been sitting on the retainage (10% withheld from Subcontracts to use as the "dangling carrot" to have them complete the project) for one of my large Subs for a huge project we finished in May. But, we've sent them letter after letter asking for proof that they've paid all of their subs and suppliers so that we don't get hit with a surprise lien after we pay the Sub in full. The Sub may still file a Lien against the Owner's property, but at least we're doing what's in the best interest of everyone.

2) Same as #1, but where Disney has not paid the GC for some reason. GC's don't pay subs for money they haven't received themselves. Thus, Sub will file a lien. GC could too. We've had to file a Lien before. That usually lights a pretty good fire under the Owners butt since you do NOT want a Lien held against your property.
 
dreamscometrue

dreamscometrue

Well-Known Member
edwardtc said:
Great addition to the post. I don't usually read Eddie's threads, so this was a nice summary :). A few of the Debbie Downers on here know all of this is going on, but most are clueless about the sums being spent behind the scenes. Last year and the year before, they replaced the HVAC units on hundreds of buildings. Guests just expect that the A/C works fine all the time, but never appreciate the fact that those units - which run nearly 24/7 - are being replaced well before their life spans have expired.

There are a million more examples like that, and while I'm also on the side of the fence saying they need to spend some money INSIDE the park, I guess I'm technically sitting on top of the fence because I know how much money they're spending behind our backs.
Click to expand...

Thanks. And, great example with the A/C, and you're right, there are 'a million other things'.

I too would like to see more money spent in the parks, and I don't think that current TDO has done a great job with maintenence as was done in the 80's and 90's, however the parks are aging, and as Eddie pointed out, something will always need work at WDW because it's an aging, massive property (paraphrased). Those waiting for it to be perfect...that day isn't coming, ever! As some issues are addressed, others will pop up.

Having said that, I believe that WDW will become much more of a priority in the grand scheme of things. Yes, there will be more done at DCA and DL, and Paris needs work, but DCA is a real Disney park now, the 2 new cruise ships are sailing, and as we make our way toward WDWs 50th, I'm convinced it'll get much love ($$$).
 
danlb_2000

danlb_2000

Premium Member
Original Poster
 
Master Yoda

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
 
Master Yoda

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
edwardtc said:
Probably on the cast gates, but what would they be doing at LM or BatB?
Click to expand...
Hard to say. The gates are kind of an obvious thing. BoG and Mermaid could really be anything. The NOCs are so vague they could be doing anything from installing a wall sconce to adding the electrical hook up for a 300' tall dragon AA.
 
danlb_2000

danlb_2000

Premium Member
Original Poster
Found two more interesting Lien documents, numbers are the total cost of the work...

Structural Steel and Erection, Dumbo the Flying Elephant - $712,275
Structural Steel and Erection, Fantasyland Train Station - $263,822
 
danlb_2000

danlb_2000

Premium Member
Original Poster
I started digging through some older liens from when Epcot was being built, and ran across this very interesting group. These are all from a contractor called AllState Erectors Inc. for work on Spaceship Earth including what appears to be some expensive re-work and delays. Particularly interesting is $480,256 to install the exterior panels, and another $400,000 to "Refasten" the panels.


Installation of 954 Triangular Panels Covered with Alucobond $485,526
Unload Alucobond Panels $9807
Clean Alcobond Panels $15,330
Load and Haul Alcobond Panels $70,797
Unload, Install Suspension Beam, Gutter, Catwalk & Misc Items $31,701
Refasten Alcobond Panels - FIX $400,012
Obtain Information for W.E.D. Report - FIX $20,387
Remove Gutter/Catwalk for Alterations, Modify and Reinstall $39,131
Unload, Sort and Install Truncated Panel Supports $4593
Verbal Orders of the Demarst Company, Inc $2333
Cut and Refab Panel Frames, Cut and Install Panel Facets, Cut and Install Connecting Trim $272,749
Install Downspouts (Rainleaders) $4230
Fix Panel Supports $22910
Rework Safety Barrier Frames $8590
Checking, Measuring, and Recording the Misaligmnet of the Standoffs with Gusset Plates and Additional Support Framing, $14,471
Install Structural Reinforcing at Cut Edges of Truncated Alucobond Panel Facets and Attach Edge Trim $15,176
Cut and Modify Misalinged Structural Support System for Truncated Panels $6370
Interest Due on Outstanding Balance from August, September and October 1982 $4784
Delayed Starting Date After Contract Start Date $10,294
Lost Time Due to Improper Access Road $2207
McDougal Panel Removal and Replacement $686
Additional Labor and Equipment Charges incurred because of job site and project conditions $391,625
 

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