Rumor WDW is considering a Universal-like Express Pass

[SplashJacket]

If this has been mentioned before in this thread (or another) I apologize but I think something is being overlooked when people talk about efficiency and reliability (ROTR, RSR).

We witnessed in the last few years (since Individual Lightning Pass) at WDW and last month at DL that Disney is intentionally inflated wait times in a couple ways. And to me it’s not even a secret that they are doing this to monetize making people wait in a line (that they created).

Here’s my example from last month at DL. RSR and ROTR were down to start the day every day we were there. They are also the only two rides with ILP at DL. We rope dropped RSR one morning in hopes it would be up at open. It wasn’t. They told everyone they could get in line and wait it out and they slowly opened more of the que as people showed up to the ride. Around 8:30 Cars were on track with cast members testing. 8:45 they announce they need to do a full shut down of the ride and restart. They do this and by 9 the ride is operational.

I believe two things are true here that help drive the ILP. They are fully capable of efficiently operating the ride. If the ride consistently does not wake up for an hour than they could start it earlier. But if they did that then they would not have the opportunity to fabricate a wait time for a ride that they can make money off of said wait times.

So what do they do? They make sure that everyday the ride starts with an hour wait and keep that line at an hour to drive ILP’s.

The second way we witnessed them manufacturing wait times was just by posting inflated wait times for ROTR. Posted wait time was 60 minutes. We were on AND off in 45. When we got off the wait time said 65 minutes and the line was shorter then when we got on. Rode it again and this time the on and off time was only 40 minutes!!!

Disney has found a way to manufacture something that is heavily monetized and unregulated. I don’t hate the player but I wish I had a hand in the game.

no

 

[JIMMYEDDIE]

…the hiccup here is Disney doesn’t draw “premium guests”

Sweater boy tried to convince himself they do…while cost cutting…and that’s ground zero for the problems they have now…

…and they definitely aren’t coming from Ohio

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/09/10/why...g-too-pricey-for-average-american-family.html

I agree

 

[RSoxNo1]

They just redid the system…

It's been a couple of months, they've got to change with the times, don't you get it?

 

[SoFloMagic]

It cannot exist with multi use, Premier guests are going to expect to walk on (<10 min) for the price they pay for it. Multi use guests will expect to multi use their pass.

You cannot satisfy both groups, it’s impossible.

"for only $982 per person, you can now use the lightning lane once for each attraction, with no pre-booking with Disney Lightning Lane Premier Access"

Done.

 

[GoofGoof]

"for only $982 per person, you can now use the lightning lane once for each attraction, with no pre-booking with Disney Lightning Lane Premier Access"

Done.

I think you have to throw in a cupcake too

 

[Laketravis]

I think you have to throw in a cupcake too

And a commemorative magnetic.

 

[SoFloMagic]

I think you have to throw in a cupcake too

Nah, that's the cupcakes and more add on pack. Only an extra $99 per day

 

[Purduevian]

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/09/10/why...g-too-pricey-for-average-american-family.html

I agree

They don't want/need the "average" American family. They want the top ~25% of the country to come.

 

[Andrew25]

If this has been mentioned before in this thread (or another) I apologize but I think something is being overlooked when people talk about efficiency and reliability (ROTR, RSR).

We witnessed in the last few years (since Individual Lightning Pass) at WDW and last month at DL that Disney is intentionally inflated wait times in a couple ways. And to me it’s not even a secret that they are doing this to monetize making people wait in a line (that they created).

Here’s my example from last month at DL. RSR and ROTR were down to start the day every day we were there. They are also the only two rides with ILP at DL. We rope dropped RSR one morning in hopes it would be up at open. It wasn’t. They told everyone they could get in line and wait it out and they slowly opened more of the que as people showed up to the ride. Around 8:30 Cars were on track with cast members testing. 8:45 they announce they need to do a full shut down of the ride and restart. They do this and by 9 the ride is operational.

I believe two things are true here that help drive the ILP. They are fully capable of efficiently operating the ride. If the ride consistently does not wake up for an hour than they could start it earlier. But if they did that then they would not have the opportunity to fabricate a wait time for a ride that they can make money off of said wait times.

So what do they do? They make sure that everyday the ride starts with an hour wait and keep that line at an hour to drive ILP’s.

The second way we witnessed them manufacturing wait times was just by posting inflated wait times for ROTR. Posted wait time was 60 minutes. We were on AND off in 45. When we got off the wait time said 65 minutes and the line was shorter then when we got on. Rode it again and this time the on and off time was only 40 minutes!!!

Disney has found a way to manufacture something that is heavily monetized and unregulated. I don’t hate the player but I wish I had a hand in the game.

While I agree that Disney is exaggerating waits (adding to the "fear" of missing out on attractions, forcing families to consider purchasing Lightning Lane), I don't believe Disney is intentionally reducing efficiency in attractions with the intention to increase waits.

Complex attractions like Radiator Springs, Rise of the Resistance and even Hagrid's are notorious for not being operational at park open, unfortunately causing a delay and making standby waits longer than they should be at the start of the day. Rise unfortunately is the probably the worst at this, as I myself have encountered highly exaggerated posted wait-times, only to walk on to attractions. But the attractions are operating as they always have, with the exception of a few thata haven't been maintained well over the years like RNRC and ToT.

Wait-times have been exaggerated at some attractions to "hedge" technical issues and the ridiculous amount of lightning lane's they give out to those who buy it, guest recovery and DAS use.

Not defending Disney, as I'm pretty vocal on the exaggeration of wait-times, but I don't see any evidence of them intentionally reducing an attraction's operation to be inefficient.

 

[monothingie]

While I agree that Disney is exaggerating waits (adding to the "fear" of missing out on attractions, forcing families to consider purchasing Lightning Lane), I don't believe Disney is intentionally reducing efficiency in attractions with the intention to increase waits.

Not defending Disney, as I'm pretty vocal on the exaggeration of wait-times, but I don't see any evidence of them intentionally reducing an attraction's operation to be inefficient.

It's very easy to manipulate. Just alter the ratio of standby to LL admissions.

If they were able to use some black box mechanism to make the ride operate at a lower hourly throughput, it actually hurts LL users more than guests using the standby line. The entire backbone behind LL, especially now with scheduling, is that the attraction MUST move X number of people through it on the LL otherwise the entire benefit of LL gets washed away.

 

[JIMMYEDDIE]

They don't want/need the "average" American family. They want the top ~25% of the country to come.

much smaller pool and those people arent repeat guests....they tend to do different experiences each year

 

[Wall-e]

While I agree that Disney is exaggerating waits (adding to the "fear" of missing out on attractions, forcing families to consider purchasing Lightning Lane), I don't believe Disney is intentionally reducing efficiency in attractions with the intention to increase waits.

Complex attractions like Radiator Springs, Rise of the Resistance and even Hagrid's are notorious for not being operational at park open, unfortunately causing a delay and making standby waits longer than they should be at the start of the day. Rise unfortunately is the probably the worst at this, as I myself have encountered highly exaggerated posted wait-times, only to walk on to attractions. But the attractions are operating as they always have, with the exception of a few thata haven't been maintained well over the years like RNRC and ToT.

Wait-times have been exaggerated at some attractions to "hedge" technical issues and the ridiculous amount of lightning lane's they give out to those who buy it, guest recovery and DAS use.

Not defending Disney, as I'm pretty vocal on the exaggeration of wait-times, but I don't see any evidence of them intentionally reducing an attraction's operation to be inefficient.

The way I see it is why wait until park open to begin operations? It just seems too convenient that most days these rides aren’t ready at park open and it only takes an hour to get them going most times. If that’s the case get your staff there an hour earlier. Which I believe they could do if they really wanted to limit the stand by lines.

But why would they if they can make extra money off people who are waiting in line? I’m not a conspiracy theorist but I can recognize a scheme when I see it.

Whoever was the first person at Disney to realize the algorithm to generate revenue from thin air probably got a wicked promotion.

 

[GoofGoof]

much smaller pool and those people arent repeat guests....they tend to do different experiences each year

I’m not sure that’s true. I would guess many of the people who are repeat visitors to WDW are also in the top 25% of earners. That income level is around $95K or higher according to the IRS. My guess is that families below that level would be more likely to be in the “once in a while“ or “once in a lifetime” Disney World visitor demographic. Not a hard and firm rule and of course there will be plenty of exceptions.

 

[Henry Mystic]

I wouldn’t expect an unlimited Express type option either (though I’d personally prefer it).

Disney is selling a resort destination to their premium guests. That resort begins to crumble once you finish every ride at AK by 11 am and HS by 12. You can already get close to that without it, but that’s to the seasoned vet, not your family from Ohio staying concierge at Yacht & Beach.

If you’re not staying at the parks, you’re not shopping, dining, buying photopass, etc.

Universal is largely in the rides business (consider how little there is to do outside of rides) and Disney is in the holistic experience bundle.

Plaids are a good bridge between Express and LLMP, but they’re done on a limited scale at astronomical prices.

Overall, I think every park should satiate every category of guest desire for a full day, but currently, there’s parks, like AK, where it only provides a full-day experience if you do everything, not just rides.

Obviously, some imminent investment will help, but that’s all it’ll do, it’ll help, not fix it. An express pass would exasperate that problem.

With minimal effort, I could knock out AK, DHS, and Epcot’s attractions in a single day, so you have to price it to offset a loss of ticket clicks, so assuming a $150 park hopper, this would need to be more than that, but that’s before considering lost spend from stores, food, etc.

I’m not sure the GSAT would be that positive for such a service either, because while it’s much simpler, it makes the parks also seem far more one-dimensional.

This is a stupidly insightful analysis.

 

[mikejs78]

I could see Disney doing something convoluted here. It's their track record. What if instead of an Express pass like system, Premier pass is a more expensive version of LLMP with the old club-level perks?

* You get 6 prebooks instead of 3
* You get to avoid tiers
* You get to book 14 days out
* You can book rerides day of

All for the low low price of $99/day on slow days and up to $150 for Christmas week.

 

[GoofGoof]

I could see Disney doing something convoluted here. It's their track record. What if instead of an Express pass like system, Premier pass is a more expensive version of LLMP with the old club-level perks?

* You get 6 prebooks instead of 3
* You get to avoid tiers
* You get to book 14 days out
* You can book rerides day of

All for the low low price of $99/day on slow days and up to $150 for Christmas week.

I think that could be something they would consider, but they would need to keep the volume sold very low. Club level perks were structurally limited by the fact you had to be staying in a limited number of hotel/DVC rooms. If they don’t limit by room type they would probably need to limit in total quantity sold. I go back to the concept of the hard ticket parties. People pay $150 to $200 PP for those and they sell out consistently so even a price of $99 probably won’t scare off enough people. People also pay more than that for a cupcake and a reserved spot to view fireworks.

Whatever they end up doing I just hope that this new product uses part of the LL capacity used currently by LLMP instead of taking more capacity from standby. I fear that won’t be the case.

 

[Andrew25]

The way I see it is why wait until park open to begin operations? It just seems too convenient that most days these rides aren’t ready at park open and it only takes an hour to get them going most times. If that’s the case get your staff there an hour earlier. Which I believe they could do if they really wanted to limit the stand by lines.

But why would they if they can make extra money off people who are waiting in line? I’m not a conspiracy theorist but I can recognize a scheme when I see it.

Whoever was the first person at Disney to realize the algorithm to generate revenue from thin air probably got a wicked promotion.

Unfortunately, there are always issues when it comes to some of the more complex attractions. Hagrid's for example, tends to have slow starts to the day since the maintenance team has to work around a small maintenance bay that doesn't provide enough time for them to maintain every train properly overnight. Universal is investing in additional storage space to reduce capacity constraints during the day. Disney does a great job every day as well, but there's always problems that unfortunately come up.


Theoretically, a Universal-like express pass could allow them to earn the same, if not more, revenue and improve the guest experience to non-express users. It might allow them to finally reduce/remove Lightning Lanes from attractions that don't need them (flat rides, theater shows and less-demanded rides like Figment).

You could also impose "one-time per ride limits" like Universal does or allow re-rides on a handful of selected rides to prevent backlogs and move guests around a bit. At a park like DAK where there's few attractions to justify an express pass over $150, you could allow 1 ride on FoP, and re-rides for experiences like Safaris & Everest that have high-capacity.

 

[GoofGoof]

Unfortunately, there are always issues when it comes to some of the more complex attractions. Hagrid's for example, tends to have slow starts to the day since the maintenance team has to work around a small maintenance bay that doesn't provide enough time for them to maintain every train properly overnight. Universal is investing in additional storage space to reduce capacity constraints during the day. Disney does a great job every day as well, but there's always problems that unfortunately come up.


Theoretically, a Universal-like express pass could allow them to earn the same, if not more, revenue and improve the guest experience to non-express users. It might allow them to finally reduce/remove Lightning Lanes from attractions that don't need them (flat rides, theater shows and less-demanded rides like Figment).

You could also impose "one-time per ride limits" like Universal does or allow re-rides on a handful of selected rides to prevent backlogs and move guests around a bit. At a park like DAK where there's few attractions to justify an express pass over $150, you could allow 1 ride on FoP, and re-rides for experiences like Safaris & Everest that have high-capacity.

I assume you are thinking the Express Pass like product would replace the current individual and multiple lightning lanes and would be the only option left other than VIP tours.

I agree with this line of thinking. Disney park fans have been conditioned since FP came out in the late 90s that there should be a “free” line skipping product available to everyone, but that was not the case for almost 30 years of operation at WDW and much longer at DLR. The free line skip product doesn’t exist anywhere else and there is probably a good reason. Some guests are already annoyed with paying for Genie+ or now the LLMP/LLIP products so time to rip the band aid off and start to encourage most visitors to get used to the way it always was before FP with waiting in standby lines. If you completely remove the line skip option from rides that don’t need it and don’t oversell the Express Pass like product it should make for shorter standby waits and a better experience for all guests.

 

[Splash4eva]

While I agree that Disney is exaggerating waits (adding to the "fear" of missing out on attractions, forcing families to consider purchasing Lightning Lane), I don't believe Disney is intentionally reducing efficiency in attractions with the intention to increase waits.

Complex attractions like Radiator Springs, Rise of the Resistance and even Hagrid's are notorious for not being operational at park open, unfortunately causing a delay and making standby waits longer than they should be at the start of the day. Rise unfortunately is the probably the worst at this, as I myself have encountered highly exaggerated posted wait-times, only to walk on to attractions. But the attractions are operating as they always have, with the exception of a few thata haven't been maintained well over the years like RNRC and ToT.

Wait-times have been exaggerated at some attractions to "hedge" technical issues and the ridiculous amount of lightning lane's they give out to those who buy it, guest recovery and DAS use.

Not defending Disney, as I'm pretty vocal on the exaggeration of wait-times, but I don't see any evidence of them intentionally reducing an attraction's operation to be inefficient.

When i was there in June and i believe i mentioned this is some thread before. If i told you how many attractions went out w/o full capacity that had solid wait times it was remarkable…. Again a small sample size of being in parks for 5 days but was noticeable

 

[Jrb1979]

I assume you are thinking the Express Pass like product would replace the current individual and multiple lightning lanes and would be the only option left other than VIP tours.

I agree with this line of thinking. Disney park fans have been conditioned since FP came out in the late 90s that there should be a “free” line skipping product available to everyone, but that was not the case for almost 30 years of operation at WDW and much longer at DLR. The free line skip product doesn’t exist anywhere else and there is probably a good reason. Some guests are already annoyed with paying for Genie+ or now the LLMP/LLIP products so time to rip the band aid off and start to encourage most visitors to get used to the way it always was before FP with waiting in standby lines. If you completely remove the line skip option from rides that don’t need it and don’t oversell the Express Pass like product it should make for shorter standby waits and a better experience for all guests.

I do agree that it should be done.

There is a few problems with doing it. One being those families like @Chi84 who have multiple generations visit at a time would most likely stop going as they like having short waits for a few attractions.

The biggest one stems from the fact the Majority of Disney guests aren't ride people. They go into that parks ride a few attractions and leave