Was WDW always expensive?

[216bruce]

I've been going to WDW since about 1977 and regularly since 1985. Yep, it's gotten a lot more expensive regardless of how you massage the prices.
On the plus side- the resorts are much more varied, the attractions are infinitely better (some do need a little tlc though) as is the food and there are twice the parks. Also, if you want to you can get "free" transport from the airport.
On the minus side- customer service has slipped (but only a little), the merchandise variety stinks and a lot of the little things that made the parks magical are gone. By this I mean- random character appearances, much of the atmosphere of the Studios (talkabout a park that has went downhill) and MK (Merlin), etc.
So, there has been good and bad with the growth and price increase, but regardless of that I never think of it once I'm there and I keep going back, so- IT MUST BE WORTH IT.

 

[jakeman]

They are astronomical.

Applying your logic to movie theaters ... in 1982, you go to a movie theater that has just one screen and is showing one film. Your $3 buys you the right to enter the theater for two hours and watch the film. Now, if the same theater has four screens in 2010 and they tell you that for the price of $28 (825% increase) you can enter the theater for the next two hours and watch any of the four screens you feel like, would you take that deal? Of course not ... you'd (and everyone else) would much prefer just paying $7.50 and seeing the film you want. You can only be in front of one screen at a time anyway, so it's not like the extra screens provides you a real tangible benefit. The extra screens are only an enticement to get you to pay an additional two hours admission (so you could experience two films) - just as the additional parks are an enticement to get you to buy an additional day's admission ticket (and hotel room, and food, etc). Is it possible to park hop to more than two parks in a day? Yes, but the amount of guests that actually do it have to be one in a thousand, if that.

Put another way. Right now you pay $296 for a three day ticket to WDW (four parks). If they told you could, instead, pay $71 for a three day ticket (122% increase on 1982 prices) but you could only go to the Magic Kingdom and Epcot, would the typical three-day guest take that deal? I know what my answer is - and I bet it the same as most people.

This argument is so flawed I don't even know where to start.

Other than being entertainment, a movie theater and theme park are completely separate business models.

Secondly, why are you harping on three days? The logical thing to do would be to present an average as best possible for the cost of a days admission. If you are going for just shock value, then you should choose a 1 day park hopper. That would pad your numbers even more.

Also, you are making assumptions on the theme park habits of guest based on your own personal preference. I'm not sure you can assume that if you only had to visit two parks most guest would choose MK and Epcot. I'm not going to make a leap into facts I don't have. Unfortunately, it seems you are more than willing to do that to support your argument.

I've present the numbers as logically and unbiasedly as possible with the information available. You can justify your rationale as much as possible, but the simple fact remains: Disney has double their average per day admission price, but they have also double their theme park offerings since 1982. Whether that is of value to you is a personal choice, but you are throwing out numbers from unrelated industries, selecting ticket options that best prop up your opinion, and making broad assumptions about guest preferences with no data to support them.

 

[Tigger1988]

Anyone who thinks Disney is expensive should spend a few days down at the Jersey shore boardwalks. Truly astronomical prices for beyond mediocre food and attractions.

Is it 'expensive' - meaning moreso than a vacation destination elsewhere? No, quite the opposite when you include what you get for the price.

Yup.

 

[dreamfinder]

WDW has changed their business model over the years. Have individual items gotten more expensive? Yup. But so has most everything else. Food is still usually on par with other restaurants, and in many cases cheaper than other entertainment venues. ($6 sodas at a baseball game anyone?) And as several PP's have mentioned, what you get has changed. Your room cost now has the DME cost built in. They don't tell you that, but the money to pay MEARS and the baggage handlers has to come from somewhere, so its built into your room rate. If DME wasn't "free", but rather the upfront $30 or so MEARS charges per person, I don't think nearly as many people would take it. Admittedly that $30pp gets spread out over your entire trip, but still. Another thing to take into account is the way that business has changed. Within many industries, some departments/divisions used to operate at cost, or even a loss, as a convenience for the other divisions that made the profit. Look at Vegas casinos. For ages they practically gave away hotel rooms since the money came from you gambling. Now the hotels are often run like a real hotel and are expected to turn a profit. The same applies within WDW. A division like say parking, may have been allowed to operate at cost, or even get subsidized by the parks, but now is expected to make a profit. And in their case, look at how many more people use the buses due to DME not having them have a rental car. It still costs as much to maintain the lots and keep the trams running, but now they have less cars to make it up on, so costs go up. But it has always been on the higher end. People would save their money to go and enjoy it. Yes WDW has been adding more experiences that cater to a higher end demographic, but they do still offer things to accommodate a range of incomes.

 

[loveofamouse]

This argument is so flawed I don't even know where to start.

Other than being entertainment, a movie theater and theme park are completely separate business models.

Secondly, why are you harping on three days? The logical thing to do would be to present an average as best possible for the cost of a days admission. If you are going for just shock value, then you should choose a 1 day park hopper. That would pad your numbers even more.

Also, you are making assumptions on the theme park habits of guest based on your own personal preference. I'm not sure you can assume that if you only had to visit two parks most guest would choose MK and Epcot. I'm not going to make a leap into facts I don't have. Unfortunately, it seems you are more than willing to do that to support your argument.

I've present the numbers as logically and unbiasedly as possible with the information available. You can justify your rationale as much as possible, but the simple fact remains: Disney has double their average per day admission price, but they have also double their theme park offerings since 1982. Whether that is of value to you is a personal choice, but you are throwing out numbers from unrelated industries, selecting ticket options that best prop up your opinion, and making broad assumptions about guest preferences with no data to support them.

I think his basic point, though, was that no matter how much extras are added, you can only do one at a time. Many people don't park hop, esp if they have young kids. In fact, Disney redflags you if you park hop too fast or too much. When I was a teen, my cousin and friends and I park hopped on our own first thing in the morning. Being young, we did 3 parks in about an 1.5hr. We got flagged and had to explain ourselves to security. Yes, we were able to continue but that just shows that Disney doesn't really expect people to park hop like you could. (they shoulda taken it as a compliment to their transportation dept Lol).

So, being a parent with Little Humans traveling with me, if given the choice between a 3 day park hopper or 4 day 1 park a day(cheaper), I'd take that.


Here's another example. Military discounts

a few years ago, Disney offered a free 5 day ticket to the active duty member and the family could purchase a 5 day 1PAD ticket for $99 with PH and DQ/WPs for an additional $10 each. I only bought the 5 day base ticket. so that's about $20 a day

The next year, the AD member had to pay for their ticket and it wasn't 5 days anymore. It was only 4. Same price. Since days alloted went down, value went down. Although price was the same, it really was an increase for the per day value. So that's about $25 a day

This year, it's $130 for a 4 day hopper. No option for base tickets. Now, for us, the value may seem the same but it's gone down for us. I wouldn't have purchased the PH option. So now, I'm going to pay $130 for a ticket that has fluff I don't need. Yeah, it's "value" is a bit higher but it's value for ME isn't. We aren't going to PH. Now, it's $32.50 a day.

Does that make sense? lol Regis and Kelly are distracting me

 

[loveofamouse]

Now, speaking of the MEARS charge, I wonder if those NOT using the service are paying for it cause, if so, that's messed up. lol

 

[Krack]

This argument is so flawed I don't even know where to start.

Other than being entertainment, a movie theater and theme park are completely separate business models.

Secondly, why are you harping on three days? The logical thing to do would be to present an average as best possible for the cost of a days admission. If you are going for just shock value, then you should choose a 1 day park hopper. That would pad your numbers even more.

Also, you are making assumptions on the theme park habits of guest based on your own personal preference. I'm not sure you can assume that if you only had to visit two parks most guest would choose MK and Epcot. I'm not going to make a leap into facts I don't have. Unfortunately, it seems you are more than willing to do that to support your argument.

I've present the numbers as logically and unbiasedly as possible with the information available. You can justify your rationale as much as possible, but the simple fact remains: Disney has double their average per day admission price, but they have also double their theme park offerings since 1982. Whether that is of value to you is a personal choice, but you are throwing out numbers from unrelated industries, selecting ticket options that best prop up your opinion, and making broad assumptions about guest preferences with no data to support them.

For Pete's sake ...

Maybe I'm "harping" on three days because it was the shortest (and cheapest) Park Hopper ticket available in 1982 and it was the first piece of information on the chart when I went and looked for ticket prices in 1982.

But, we can pick any length you want (it's not like they didn't offer cheaper prices for extended tickets in the early 80s). Hell, for the sake of clarity, I'll just do a bunch of them.

1-Day Admission to Magic Kingdom:
1982 = $15
2010 = $82 (446% increase)

3-Day Park Hopper:
1982 = $32
2010 = $296 (825% increase)

6-Day Park Hopper - no expiration + water park(s):
1982 = $43
2010 = $419 (874% increase)

Annual Pass:
1982 = $100
2010 = $629 (529% increase)

Any way you slice it, the prices went up astronomically. Have other entertainment options seen similar skyrocketing price increases? Yup, I don't have the information available, but I bet season tickets for an NFL team saw similar increases over the same 30 years. But not most (and certainly not all) entertainment options, as demonstrated by the average movie ticket price that more or less rose at the same rate as inflation over the last three decades.

 

[wm49rs]

For Pete's sake ...

Maybe I'm "harping" on three days because it was the shortest (and cheapest) Park Hopper ticket available in 1982 and it was the first piece of information on the chart when I went and looked for ticket prices in 1982.

But, we can pick any length you want (it's not like they didn't offer cheaper prices for extended tickets in the early 80s). Hell, for the sake of clarity, I'll just do a bunch of them.

1-Day Admission to Magic Kingdom:
1982 = $15
2010 = $82 (446% increase)

3-Day Park Hopper:
1982 = $32
2010 = $296 (825% increase)

6-Day Park Hopper - no expiration + water park(s):
1982 = $43
2010 = $419 (874% increase)

Annual Pass:
1982 = $100
2010 = $629 (529% increase)

Any way you slice it, the prices went up astronomically.

So did the cost of running the parks, building new attractions, rides, restaurants, resorts, etc. Since 1982 two new entire parks were built in Florida alone. Yes, the prices went up, and a lot. So did what Disney had to offer.....:shrug:

 

[Krack]

So did the cost of running the parks, building new attractions, rides, restaurants, resorts, etc. Since 1982 two new entire parks were built in Florida alone. Yes, the prices went up, and a lot. So did what Disney had to offer.....:shrug:

Yes, but that would be a reason why a person would increase their length of stay; it's not a reason why the park admission cost should increase so much over the rate of inflation. Generally, the rate of inflation should account for "running the parks". And as for the "building of new" stuff - in 1982, they were just coming off the most money (adjusted for inflation) that they had probably spent in WDW in a single year on new construction. It's not like they are building more now than they did then.

On a single day, you're not going to experience more than two parks whether it's 1982 or 2010. On the other hand, the entertainment (attractions, restaurants, shops and shows) inside the parks would be a reason for the increase. Do you feel there is 8x more entertainment value inside the MK today than 1982? How about EPCOT? I don't.

 

[wm49rs]

Yes, but that would be a reason why a person would increase their length of stay; it's not a reason why the park admission cost should increase so much over the rate of inflation. On a single day, you're not going to experience more than two parks whether it's 1982 or 2010. On the other hand, the entertainment (attractions, restaurants, shops and shows) inside the parks would be a reason for the increase. Do you feel there is 8x more entertainment value inside the MK today than 1982? How about EPCOT? I don't.

Whether there is, to use your term "8x more entertainment value" inside MK or EP is irrelevant. The simple fact is that the cost of construction (among others), regardless of which park it is occurring, will be recouped first and foremost through the price of admission.

Going back to your movie analogy, as the budgets of movies went up, the cost charged by the studios to the theatres for them went up as well, resulting in higher ticket prices today. Is it fair that one person has to pay the same price for an indie flick with a low budget as opposed to one with a $300M one? No, but that is how those businesses look to make their profits.

 

[jakeman]

I think his basic point, though, was that no matter how much extras are added, you can only do one at a time. Many people don't park hop, esp if they have young kids. In fact, Disney redflags you if you park hop too fast or too much. When I was a teen, my cousin and friends and I park hopped on our own first thing in the morning. Being young, we did 3 parks in about an 1.5hr. We got flagged and had to explain ourselves to security. Yes, we were able to continue but that just shows that Disney doesn't really expect people to park hop like you could. (they shoulda taken it as a compliment to their transportation dept Lol).

So, being a parent with Little Humans traveling with me, if given the choice between a 3 day park hopper or 4 day 1 park a day(cheaper), I'd take that.


Here's another example. Military discounts

a few years ago, Disney offered a free 5 day ticket to the active duty member and the family could purchase a 5 day 1PAD ticket for $99 with PH and DQ/WPs for an additional $10 each. I only bought the 5 day base ticket. so that's about $20 a day

The next year, the AD member had to pay for their ticket and it wasn't 5 days anymore. It was only 4. Same price. Since days alloted went down, value went down. Although price was the same, it really was an increase for the per day value. So that's about $25 a day

This year, it's $130 for a 4 day hopper. No option for base tickets. Now, for us, the value may seem the same but it's gone down for us. I wouldn't have purchased the PH option. So now, I'm going to pay $130 for a ticket that has fluff I don't need. Yeah, it's "value" is a bit higher but it's value for ME isn't. We aren't going to PH. Now, it's $32.50 a day.

Does that make sense? lol Regis and Kelly are distracting me

I understand what you are saying. I'll elaborate on my position in response to Krack.

However, individual value and raw numbers are two different things to me.

The basis of the above numbers in Krack's assessment is that X% increase is astronomical. This position is untenable to me because there are serious flaws in the calculation and in the comparison.

Those flaws continue below:

For Pete's sake ...

Maybe I'm "harping" on three days because it was the shortest (and cheapest) Park Hopper ticket available in 1982 and it was the first piece of information on the chart when I went and looked for ticket prices in 1982.

But, we can pick any length you want (it's not like they didn't offer cheaper prices for extended tickets in the early 80s). Hell, for the sake of clarity, I'll just do a bunch of them.

1-Day Admission to Magic Kingdom:
1982 = $15
2010 = $82 (446% increase)

3-Day Park Hopper:
1982 = $32
2010 = $296 (825% increase)

6-Day Park Hopper - no expiration + water park(s):
1982 = $43
2010 = $419 (874% increase)

Annual Pass:
1982 = $100
2010 = $629 (529% increase)

Any way you slice it, the prices went up astronomically.

You still don't understand my point.

Putting aside the fact that you didn't account for inflation, there is simply more to do. You are paying for the potential to take advantage of all of these amenities. Whether you can or not isn't very relevant to the argument.

The prices are in line with the increase in amenities Disney has provided.

If that is of value to you or not isn't really pertinent to the math.

Let's take your Annual Pass for example:

Adjusted for inflation an AP in 1982 would cost $226 dollars today or roughly $75 per park (two theme parks, water park). The premium annual pass from today includes 4 theme parks, 2 water parks, Disney Quest, and ESPN Wide World of Sports. Since the last one is somewhat misleading as there isn't really anything to do there right now we'll exclude it. That is an average of $89 per park. Therefore you are looking at a true increase of only 18% in almost 30 years. If you included ESPN, then it is only a $3 increase over 1982 prices.

Admittedly for simplicities sake I just did an average and I fully realize that admission to each venue isn't equal.

It obvious that the value of the increase is not very great to you and that is fine, but the increase is in line with the increase in offerings.

 

[Krack]

Putting aside the fact that you didn't account for inflation, there is simply more to do.

Yes, I did. It was 122%. I stated that in my first post as a point of comparison. If the cost of something increased over 122% since 1982, it did so at a rate greater than inflation.

And, again, any increase in venues (new parks, etc) would be a reason to increase your length of stay, not a reason for a single day's admission (taken by itself, or in the aggregate) to increase. You can not visit all of these venues in a single day, regardless of what type of admission you have. In other words, whether 2 parks exist or 4 parks exist, you're still not going to visit more than 2 of them in a single day (this is a scenario that has not changed since 1982 - so it's not a variable). The additional parks are a reason to spend an extra day (or days) on your vacation; it is not a reason a specific day's admission cost should increase in and of itself. However, as I conceded earlier, an increase in entertainment options inside of MK and EC would be a reason for a specific day's admission to increase.

The only type of admission this would not be true for would be Annual Passes because they, by their nature, provide an unlimited length of stay.

 

[jakeman]

In other words, whether 2 parks exist or 4 parks exist, you're still not going to visit more than 2 of them in a single day (this is a scenario that has not changed since 1982 - so it's not a variable).

This isn't a fact though. This is your opinion. In fact, I would even hazard to guess that it is an opinion based on nothing more than your own touring style and a dash of anecdotal conversation.

The potential is there. That is what you are paying for.

Personal value is not the same as logical cost.

 

[Tigger1988]

In other words, whether 2 parks exist or 4 parks exist, you're still not going to visit more than 2 of them in a single day (this is a scenario that has not changed since 1982 - so it's not a variable).

That may be true for you but not for everyone. Speak for yourself.

 

[Krack]

This isn't a fact though. This is your opinion. In fact, I would even hazard to guess that it is an opinion based on nothing more than your own touring style and a dash of anecdotal conversation.

The potential is there. That is what you are paying for.

Personal value is not the same as logical cost.

Well, I estimated earlier that it would be no more than one in a one thousand people (if that) who would visit three or more parks in one day. Looking at attendance figures, that would be maybe 50-100 people a day? I know I've never done it and (like everyone else on this board), I've spent an abnormally high amount of time in WDW since 1989 (when DHS opened). Regardless, I'm not interested on debating the merits of an option that is utilized by less than 1% of the general public; if there are people who spend all day, everyday, racing from park to park to park to park - good for them - but they are not anywhere near indicative of the typical guest experience.

 

[wm49rs]

Well, I estimated earlier that it would be no more than one in a one thousand people (if that) who would visit three or more parks in one day. Looking at attendance figures, that would be maybe 50-100 people a day? I know I've never done it and (like everyone else on this board), I've spent an abnormally high amount of time in WDW since 1989 (when DHS opened). Regardless, I'm not interested on debating the merits of an option that is utilized by less than 1% of the general public; if there are people who spend all day, everyday, racing from park to park to park to park - good for them - but they are not anywhere near indicative of the typical guest experience.

But how about two parks in one day?

And what precisely is the "typical guest experience" an how does anyone truly quantify it? Because I can guarantee that my "typical guest experience" will undoubtedly be different than yours. As would many others in that 1,000-person sample size of yours.....

 

[jakeman]

Well, I estimated earlier that it would be no more than one in a one thousand people (if that) who would visit three or more parks in one day. Looking at attendance figures, that would be maybe 50-100 people a day? I know I've never done it and (like everyone else on this board), I've spent an abnormally high amount of time in WDW since 1989 (when DHS opened). Regardless, I'm not interested on debating the merits of an option that is utilized by less than 1% of the general public; if there are people who spend all day, everyday, racing from park to park to park to park - good for them - but they are not anywhere near indicative of the typical guest experience.

You don't know what the typical guest experience is. Neither do I. You only know what your experience is.

Your argument isn't valid.

 

[Tigger1988]

I didn't know Krack did an extensive research study and survey of every WDW guest's touring patterns. I mean, he must have if he's throwing around statistics.

 

[Krack]

That may be true for you but not for everyone. Speak for yourself.

So is your premise that the price of park admission should increase 8x from 1982 to 2010 (about 6 to 7x greater than the rate of inflation) because a teeny tiny group of people (you tell me how many) are literally running from park to park to park on any particular day? Have you done it? If so, how often?

 

[Krack]

But how about two parks in one day?

There were two parks in 1982.