Warning... What I am about to theorize may not be popular.

PK2

Well-Known Member
I'm only 21, and I've become a Disney fan on the grounds of high-quality, inspired and interesting attractions. The IP creep continues to bother me where I think it's unnecessary (GOTG in Disneyland is still bugging me a lot. Star Wars in Disneyland does, but WDW is fine as it fits the park). Ultimately, if what comes fits what makes me a Disney fan, I'll continue to go to WDW. But I'll grit my teeth a little every time I think about how I was only very very young when rides like IYHW and Imagination! we're torn out, and continuing to rip out great, informative and (most importantly) original attractions in favour of IPs will only work so many times before I just don't want to be there anymore.

I went to DLP for the first time in many years a few months ago. It was the most fun I've had at a Disney park in years. IP creep can be felt there (Frozen promotions and Buzz in Discoveryland), but not as much (I guess they don't get as much funding). I loved that it still had a tinge of that "old school" atmosphere and will be going there more often in future.
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
Generation X'ers may have some of the most disposable, non-retirement income at the moment but I hardly would say Millennials are scraps. It's simple numbers. The latter generation is simply bigger and thus will have a greater effect on the culture over time. It isn't a question of "attitude" or whose "better".

I have never quite understood the jadedness of Generation X. Many in that generation got to grow up during some of the most optimistic times the country ever experienced and got to graduate and start their careers in some of the best economic times the country has ever experienced.
I'm 38.Generation X. When I started my career, looking for a home etc was exactly when the housing bubble was at its highest. We paid insane prices and then that bubble burst...also in the mix was uncertainty, a war, and tanking stock market. That's why I think "we" got 'skipped over' for awhile.

Most have now recovered, most are doing well, and decisions are being made to attract "our" money again. Plus, I think Gen X and Gen Y share many similarities in general mindset, technology focused and so on. What Disney is doing is encompassing both.
 

SteamboatJoe

Well-Known Member
Oh I agree with your statement. We are the one's "calling the shots" now so to speak. Which is why I think that what Disney is doing now is actually brilliant. Certainly not the failure that people are making it seem. Engage the parents, wow the kids- both with things they love.

I always get amused when people say marketing is always geared towards either Baby Boomers or Millennials, there's an entire group of people with children and money to spend in the mix.
Granted the Millennials were not hit by war, recession, home values tanking..and they do have money to spend..and have been the focus for quite a few years. Don't count the Gen X'rs out though, most have recovered and companies are realizing that.

I would agree with your premise in your first paragraph. The rebirth of all things 80s is proof positive of that, however, to say that the Millennials haven't been hit by war or recession I do not agree with. The older end of the Millennial spectrum (which seems to almost be as forgotten as Generation X itself) went to war in both Iraq and Afghanistan in significant numbers and many graduated college and had to try to find jobs in depths of the recession. I will agree that your generation got the short end of the stick in regards to the housing market.
 

ScoutN

OV 104
Premium Member
Except, we actually have real jobs that pay money.

I would go along with that. Boomers are calling many more shots that people realize. They are in many ways subsidizing much of the Gen X and Y crowd. The Y crowd will be the interesting one to watch. Many of them are saddled with student debt of epic proportions and getting financial support form parents. Median student loan debt nearly matches the median income range. Those who I know in Gen Y with disposable income are largely those who went in to trades vs school.
 

zengoth

Well-Known Member
When did Disney ever go after generational demographics? They go after who spends the most money. As an annual passholder and local, it doesn't matter what my generation is, it matters that I'm not spending as much as a family of 4 staying on-site for a week or so. Those are the folks Disney wants coming back on a regular basis and will cater to.

I kinda agree with the original post, but I think Disney is smart enough to balance the new (and potentially unproven) with legacy attractions.
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
When did Disney ever go after generational demographics? They go after who spends the most money. As an annual passholder and local, it doesn't matter what my generation is, it matters that I'm not spending as much as a family of 4 staying on-site for a week or so. Those are the folks Disney wants coming back on a regular basis and will cater to.

I kinda agree with the original post, but I think Disney is smart enough to balance the new (and potentially unproven) with legacy attractions.
Because there will always be certain generations spending money..and what way to now get 3 generations- bringing back the stuff from the 80s, with a new twist, drawing and counting on the nostalgia and passion of those with children now. Not the least bit important is coming out with new movies, shows, characters, merchandise to make sure that the young ones will grow up on certain franchises- Star Wars and Marvel and the circle will continue.
I would agree with your premise in your first paragraph. The rebirth of all things 80s is proof positive of that, however, to say that the Millennials haven't been hit by war or recession I do not agree with. The older end of the Millennial spectrum (which seems to almost be as forgotten as Generation X itself) went to war in both Iraq and Afghanistan in significant numbers and many graduated college and had to try to find jobs in depths of the recession. I will agree that your generation got the short end of the stick in regards to the housing market.
Using hypothetical numbers-
Let's say your neighbor bought their first house in 2004, after a few years in their career. Their mortgage is $2500pm. You moved next to them in 2009. After a few years in your career, also your first house. Your mortgage is $1800 pm- you also know that you are not upside down in your house, and will eventually have equity..something your neighbor will never have. End result-You have more disposable income and consumer confidence than your neighbor.

Every company knows/knew this. Finally, the past few years, things have started to even out. Enough time has gone by for people to recoup. Then you have the ones who may have been able to avoid that scenario, but scared to spend their money in uncertain times, now this group is also spending again- and "new & exciting" attractions will make them want to spend money on that product. In this case, WDW.
 
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kenny279

Active Member
Could the shift all be begin with the popularity of Harry Potter at Universal? You can argue to the popularity of the IP, but to the suits Harry Potter, Cars Land = equals the success of the IP, but could the reality be the level of immersion is the true success, but they can't see that. Until IPs bomb, I think they will be the path going forward much like reboots and sequels are the path in movies right now - not just with Disney.
 

SteamboatJoe

Well-Known Member
When did Disney ever go after generational demographics? They go after who spends the most money. As an annual passholder and local, it doesn't matter what my generation is, it matters that I'm not spending as much as a family of 4 staying on-site for a week or so. Those are the folks Disney wants coming back on a regular basis and will cater to.

I kinda agree with the original post, but I think Disney is smart enough to balance the new (and potentially unproven) with legacy attractions.

To some degree, I do not envy those in charge of making some of the decisions about the parks today. Keeping things fresh, innovative, cutting edge, and exciting while acknowledging that the parks themselves are also unofficial national historic landmarks that need to preserved has to be challenging. I think the only thing you can do is try to make balanced decisions that alienates the fewest amount of customers possible. Sorta like when Mr. Toad was closed at WDW and Country Bears was closed at DL. They both still exist in the parks where they debuted but had to be sacrified to make way for "progress" in their non-native parks.

I always think of Jungle Cruise at WDW when I think of this paradox. Not only is it an original MK ride, its an original DL ride straight out of Walt's imagination. Not only is it historic but it is near and dear to generations of fans. There are no signs that its in any danger, and I'm certainly not advocating for its removal, but you just know/fear someone in a position of power is eventually going to say why should we keep a ride that takes up so a good amount of real estate, has no IP connections (yet), and is centered around a concept we have practically made into its own theme park with actual, real live animals?
 

raven

Well-Known Member
Star Wars and Marvel are indeed from MY generation, not the current one. Doesn't that say something here? Yes, there's a whole new generation now into those subjects but it's all based in an older generation.

So is the parks. Disneyland just turned 60 years old and while several things have changed, it's roughly the same charming park as when it first opened.

When music artists begin to transform into what their fans want them to be, they start to loose their artistry. And I believe the same is happening at Disney.
 

SteamboatJoe

Well-Known Member
When music artists begin to transform into what their fans want them to be, they start to loose their artistry. And I believe the same is happening at Disney.

Agreed. Walt built a park the public didn't even know it desperately wanted. That is true vision.

Unfortunately, America as whole today seems to have lost its will to be bold and daring. I think a lot of that can be attributed to global politics, economic troubles, and changes in priorities over the past 15 years or so. Its a hierarchy of needs issue. There is no way we can think big and take risks if our basic need of safety, both physical and financial, isn't being met.

The ironic thing is that Disneyland was built in a time of incredible paranoia. I think that really speaks to how powerful escapism and familiarity can be.
 
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rnese

Well-Known Member
All good points. I'm going to speak with a single focus...EPCOT.

I first went to EPCOT Center back in the early '80's. It was new. I was about 12 yrs old. Back then I had only been to a couple of amusement parks. Cedar Point, Kennywood, Geauga Lake and Busch Gardens VA.

EPCOT was like nothing I had ever seen! No spinning rides. No thrill rides like 200ft tall looping hypercoasters. Buildings that amazed me simply by the looks! A huge sphere. A slanting glass box. Glass pyramids with a magical water fountain that would jump from pad to pad...and over my head!

Then inside. So much to look at! So much to listen to. The animatronics! The scenes of space and underwater colonies. As a child, I didn't have to worry about "holding on for dear life"! I was experiencing"grown-up" stuff...in an amusement park!!!!!!

I could see what my future may look like. I was in communicore designing my own rollercoaster on a computer (I didn't have a computer at home). I was awestruck by the population counter. My parents tell me they had to drag me out of there. I could have been in there all day!

That was just future world! The architecture of world showcase was incredible in itself. This is what it looks like in THAT country?!?! The Eiffel Tower!?!? What?!?!

I know times have changed. Uni themes stuff now. A lot of parks do it now. However, EPCOT was DIFFERENT. It was something special. It just saddens me to see it become just like every other park. I'll never forget what EPCOT Center was. I tell my boys about it. We watch Martin's YouTube tribute videos (Thank you for those Martin!) They love them. I love them. I love EPCOT Center. If anyone is out there listening to me and those like me who are true fans of what once was...please...make EPCOT Center something great, different and inspiring again!

Aspire to Inspire!
 

Pleakley

Active Member
Well I'm tail-end Gen Y, bordering on Gen Z, and that is why the state of the parks really concerns me. I will be their core customer in the coming decades, and I hope they can re-establish a sense of quality that will keep me coming back. Keep in mind, very little has changed at WDW in my memory. I visited AK opening day in a stroller. When you consider that this age group is now entering their 20's, you now have a group of young adults who do not know Disney's old reputation. Instead of building new attractions to give us something different to come and see, they seem to take advantage of the fact that we did not grow up expecting additions every year. This notion is dangerous when it comes to building a future loyal customer base. Even for those, like myself, who grew up taking annual trips in the 00's or 10's, will there be a reason to continue on our own if the product has stagnated and the quality has been downgraded? Disney needs to realize that the world is much more accessible to us than any previous generation. You need to have the best products and you need to fight for these customers.

I think that the overreliance on quantitative data is already becoming a problem. I recently got my degree in Marketing and was taught to quantify everything; that numbers are the way of the future. "Intuition" is taught to be "faulty" and "of the past". Now given I am just a rookie and I do not mean to dismiss all the advancements we have made in this decade with hard data. However, I do not think Marketers are being provided with as accurate of a picture as they think they are. I see in my own generation, whom they stalk the social media accounts and track the hashtags of, in an attempt to figure out "what the kids are into". This method in my opinion still ignores an enormous human element. We need to focus on what will be the effects of growing up in this plugged-in world. It also seems to lead to more derivative ideas rather than new ones, with a focus on what has already been done. This is, again, dangerous with this age group. While referencing interesting areas of the past has always had quite a bit of success, we must also remember that thanks to the internet, the past itself is more accessible. This can be both a good and bad thing. Interest is having decreasingly less to do with age. Old itself is not bad. It is stale that is bad, and with our constant media bombardment, things can grow stale at a faster rate than ever.

So perhaps what I'm saying is that a survey, or hashtags, or any number of likes, indicating that say, a certain IP is popular, does not necessarily mean it is the end-all be-all. The issue is multi-faceted and slapping the latest hot IP on to something is operating completely at face value. (I would also throw in that people who were kids in the 00's, a dark era of Disney animation as many call it, are a bit caught inbetween here. The 90's wore off and we grew up with Stitch and Pixar, but didn't experience much Marvel or Star Wars until at least adolescence.) Fan culture has become what it is because the of the high quality of the products to begin with. I'll say again, today we are pickier than ever, we can track down the good stuff. That is what is getting them interested in the first place. Treating people like they should settle for lower quality products because a name is thrown on them is an insult. Put out the best, they will be interested. Just give them the chance to be. Like Walt did. And even though it is important to recognize the generations, this isn't really even about age, it's about ideology.
 

Me 'Earties

Not all treasure is silver and gold, mate
Well I'm tail-end Gen Y, bordering on Gen Z, and that is why the state of the parks really concerns me. I will be their core customer in the coming decades, and I hope they can re-establish a sense of quality that will keep me coming back. Keep in mind, very little has changed at WDW in my memory. I visited AK opening day in a stroller. When you consider that this age group is now entering their 20's, you now have a group of young adults who do not know Disney's old reputation. Instead of building new attractions to give us something different to come and see, they seem to take advantage of the fact that we did not grow up expecting additions every year. This notion is dangerous when it comes to building a future loyal customer base. Even for those, like myself, who grew up taking annual trips in the 00's or 10's, will there be a reason to continue on our own if the product has stagnated and the quality has been downgraded? Disney needs to realize that the world is much more accessible to us than any previous generation. You need to have the best products and you need to fight for these customers.

I think that the overreliance on quantitative data is already becoming a problem. I recently got my degree in Marketing and was taught to quantify everything; that numbers are the way of the future. "Intuition" is taught to be "faulty" and "of the past". Now given I am just a rookie and I do not mean to dismiss all the advancements we have made in this decade with hard data. However, I do not think Marketers are being provided with as accurate of a picture as they think they are. I see in my own generation, whom they stalk the social media accounts and track the hashtags of, in an attempt to figure out "what the kids are into". This method in my opinion still ignores an enormous human element. We need to focus on what will be the effects of growing up in this plugged-in world. It also seems to lead to more derivative ideas rather than new ones, with a focus on what has already been done. This is, again, dangerous with this age group. While referencing interesting areas of the past has always had quite a bit of success, we must also remember that thanks to the internet, the past itself is more accessible. This can be both a good and bad thing. Interest is having decreasingly less to do with age. Old itself is not bad. It is stale that is bad, and with our constant media bombardment, things can grow stale at a faster rate than ever.

So perhaps what I'm saying is that a survey, or hashtags, or any number of likes, indicating that say, a certain IP is popular, does not necessarily mean it is the end-all be-all. The issue is multi-faceted and slapping the latest hot IP on to something is operating completely at face value. (I would also throw in that people who were kids in the 00's, a dark era of Disney animation as many call it, are a bit caught inbetween here. The 90's wore off and we grew up with Stitch and Pixar, but didn't experience much Marvel or Star Wars until at least adolescence.) Fan culture has become what it is because the of the high quality of the products to begin with. I'll say again, today we are pickier than ever, we can track down the good stuff. That is what is getting them interested in the first place. Treating people like they should settle for lower quality products because a name is thrown on them is an insult. Put out the best, they will be interested. Just give them the chance to be. Like Walt did. And even though it is important to recognize the generations, this isn't really even about age, it's about ideology.

Unfortunately, data is used to make decisions many times if not all the time; not ideologies or feelings. I work for a very large company with a legacy in the business we're in. We have customers, small and large, catering to folks globally, and we pride ourselves with having the best product (sound familiar? :)). I was dealing with a customer (let's just say a huge, French cosmetics company) that, I felt, her attitude towards our company would be diminished if we didn't do the right thing (replace a very expensive product, that, we knew the customer most likely destroyed by improper use). You know what I was told by head marketing of that product? We don't replace based on a feeling. I was shocked by the response but realized they made a business decision based on a dollar amount. It doesn't matter what the little folks say or do; the decision makers have to report to Wall Street ultimately and they want results
 

oceanbreeze77

Well-Known Member
Could the shift all be begin with the popularity of Harry Potter at Universal? You can argue to the popularity of the IP, but to the suits Harry Potter, Cars Land = equals the success of the IP, but could the reality be the level of immersion is the true success, but they can't see that. Until IPs bomb, I think they will be the path going forward much like reboots and sequels are the path in movies right now - not just with Disney.
I love harry potter. I was excited for WWoHP. But thats the kind of thing I expect from Universal. Not disney.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Honestly, I'm struggling to grasp the point of this thread. o_O
Then skip to the thousands of others that do not insult your sensibilities.
When did Disney ever go after generational demographics? They go after who spends the most money. As an annual passholder and local, it doesn't matter what my generation is, it matters that I'm not spending as much as a family of 4 staying on-site for a week or so. Those are the folks Disney wants coming back on a regular basis and will cater to.

I kinda agree with the original post, but I think Disney is smart enough to balance the new (and potentially unproven) with legacy attractions.
Yes, it will continue to do that to a degree to make the boomers happy and some of the post boomers as well. But, to me the handwriting is on the wall. What was the draw is no longer. It is now considered lame, irrelevant (how many times have you heard that on the boards) and out of touch with what the current to future generations enjoy. It might be wrong, only time will tell, but, I don't think it is and by the time todays generations reach the ages of the boomers, things will probably change again, maybe even back to the way we like it. History does have an uncanny way of circling around over and over. It will be way to late for us, but, heck in 60 more years this whole cycle will be repeating itself.
 

GrammieBee

Well-Known Member
Upon reading various forums over the past few weeks about closing this or adding that, this is a subject to which I have given some thought.

First of all , my husband and I are older than just about anyone posting on these forums. We were children of the tail end of the depression. When we first visited WDW in 1974 we were already in our early forties with children of grade school and middle school age. Our children are now in their fifties and our grand children are all in their twenties. This gives us a perspective of three generations going to the Disney parks unclouded by childhood memories.

We have always been Disney fans, but not Disney fanatics. We wanted to see other places and attraction so we planned to visit the Disney parks approximately every two to four years to see what was new We always had the luxury of time, if not of having a lot of money, so we stayed in Fort Wilderness for at least two weeks each visit and visited every corner of every park as they were opened. While we loved thrill rides, we also liked everything else about the parks and rode on and saw every attraction available. For those who think children only like rides and meet and greets, go to any hands on science museum in the United States. If you want to try something yourself you practically have to beat off the children with a stick.

Some of the changes to the parks over the years we liked, some we did not like and some were hardly noticed. The big changes we have noticed are the empty or nearly empty buildings in EPCOT and the Studios, the ever decreasing age of children in the parks with the accompanying explosion of strollers, the crowds, the loss of many little special touches, and the increasing use of up charge events and services.

Adding an IP to an existing attraction or having a new land devoted to one IP never bothered us, some favorite ride closures we understood because they were very slow loading or could not handle large crowds, we can see having a Disney IP associated with each land in the World Showcase, but all the talk now of closing or changing classic attractions which are still very popular does bother us. And that seems to be the generational problem. As we get older we tend to hang on to the things we know, love and make us feel comfortable. Change is harder for us. The newer generations, especially now with the explosion of modern technology, want to be tuned in, turned on, in constant motion.and have everything the newest of the moment. There is nothing wrong with wanting the newest, but it should not be at the cost of or sacrifice of everything that has been around for awhile. The old and classic give us a sense of who we are, where we came from and what was important in our history. Even in a theme park. There is no good reason why the new should not exist side by side with the older classic. Unfortunately corporate Disney's reason is probably the profit line in the budget.

My considered conclusion is that corporate Disney is a lot like the weather. It is going to do what it wants to do whether we like it or not.
And, yes, at my age Disney probably does not give a flying fig about whether I come, stay away or drop dead.
 
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Pleakley

Active Member
Unfortunately, data is used to make decisions many times if not all the time; not ideologies or feelings. I work for a very large company with a legacy in the business we're in. We have customers, small and large, catering to folks globally, and we pride ourselves with having the best product (sound familiar? :)). I was dealing with a customer (let's just say a huge, French cosmetics company) that, I felt, her attitude towards our company would be diminished if we didn't do the right thing (replace a very expensive product, that, we knew the customer most likely destroyed by improper use). You know what I was told by head marketing of that product? We don't replace based on a feeling. I was shocked by the response but realized they made a business decision based on a dollar amount. It doesn't matter what the little folks say or do; the decision makers have to report to Wall Street ultimately and they want results

Thanks for your story. Yes it has become the dominant way, it's just my opinion that it has become, I don't know, a little sad. It's terribly idealistic of me, but sometimes I dream of what a successful, slightly more qualitative approach could provide to Disney Parks. Walt would not only have been laughed at in today's world, but would never get the capital needed in order to fund his larger products. The one glimmer of hope here is perhaps in the success of new, young start-ups. Ones who just acted upon a weird idea, perhaps laying out a strategies to inspire even the big guys. Wishing upon a star, I know, but happens once in a while. It did with a Pixar. They just can't convince me that they can quantify everything.
 

Pleakley

Active Member
Of course, maybe I'm not the psychographic Disney wants as their customer. Maybe they perceive the Six Flags customer as more profitable and easier to please. To which there's nothing I can say or do.
 

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