Upcoming/Rumored Projects

[Slowjack]

This is the best post I've seen in a long time here. In a brochure I found on the web that was scanned from original marketing materials of the Disney subsidiary that owned the monorail and WEDway PeopleMover rights during the early '80's, there was a line that said that there was plans to use EPCOT Center to test future monorail and transportation technologies. I wondered what they could possibly be talking about. Maybe they had a plan that would have connected the second lagoon?

I was like 13 when EPCOT opened. I was there during a soft opening and after it officially opened. I remember the signs you're talking about very clearly. In FW, there were signs for Living Seas, Horizons, Life and Health Pavilion, Space, and Tron Arcade. Space and Health were supposed to be Omnimover rides. In WS, there were signs for Equatorial Africa, Spain, and Israel. In CommuCore (innovations), there was a conference room that I don't think I was allowed into, but it had concept art poster boards of all the future plans for EC at that time. One poster board showed was a property map that showed future expansion of the monorail as a red dotted line. Last year, I found a vendor on eBay selling it and I made sure I saved the pictures of it.

If you go back to my posting history on this site (about two years ago), you will find that some people here were outright hostile toward me when I told them there was such a room and that I "snook" into it when I was 13 and accused me of either lying or seeing things when I mentioned the monorail expansion plan poster board. The ambition of EC back then was more than just a monorail expansion spur. It was the second lagoon and many other things. Thanks for posting!

I was 12 when Epcot opened, although I was 14, I think, when I first went. Horizons still had that new-pavilion smell.

In those early years, it really felt like Epcot was the beginning of something new -- the 21st century come early, a more serious park geared for adults, an ever-changing permanent World's Fair. In hindsight it may have been the end of an era rather than the beginning, the last vision of an amazing future, the final glimpse of the great big beautiful tomorrow. People forget how much of that space-age optimism was in the air back then. My father, who was a city planner here in Birmingham, had ideas for a Peoplemover-style conduit through downtown. I also have some concept art his department did, where a second level would have been built to make downtown pedestrian-friendly, while the auto traffic rolled underneath. Sound like Walt's Epcot? And these ideas were being dreamed up across the country. Walt Disney really thought his company could be part of a new blueprint for cities, and Epcot would be the demo model. Let's not forget that "World Showcase" comes from Walt's idea that Epcot would be a "showcase to the world," i.e., that it would put the best ideas of engineers and designers on display.

But it didn't turn out that way, for Epcot or for the rest of it.

I wish I could remember exactly when all those "On this site..." billboards disappeared. Maybe that was the day everything changed, when, spiritually at least, EPCOT Center become Epcot. I miss the company that put up those signs. I'm sure they knew it wasn't all going to be built even from the start, but they were bold enough to at least proclaim the desire. Heck, even around 1990 I remember seeing a wall of concept art in the welcome center in Ocala for things like the Swiss pavilion. Dream big, I say.

 

[PeterAlt]

I was 12 when Epcot opened, although I was 14, I think, when I first went. Horizons still had that new-pavilion smell.

In those early years, it really felt like Epcot was the beginning of something new -- the 21st century come early, a more serious park geared for adults, an ever-changing permanent World's Fair. In hindsight it may have been the end of an era rather than the beginning, the last vision of an amazing future, the final glimpse of the great big beautiful tomorrow. People forget how much of that space-age optimism was in the air back then. My father, who was a city planner here in Birmingham, had ideas for a Peoplemover-style conduit through downtown. I also have some concept art his department did, where a second level would have been built to make downtown pedestrian-friendly, while the auto traffic rolled underneath. Sound like Walt's Epcot? And these ideas were being dreamed up across the country. Walt Disney really thought his company could be part of a new blueprint for cities, and Epcot would be the demo model. Let's not forget that "World Showcase" comes from Walt's idea that Epcot would be a "showcase to the world," i.e., that it would put the best ideas of engineers and designers on display.

But it didn't turn out that way, for Epcot or for the rest of it.

I wish I could remember exactly when all those "On this site..." billboards disappeared. Maybe that was the day everything changed, when, spiritually at least, EPCOT Center become Epcot. I miss the company that put up those signs. I'm sure they knew it wasn't all going to be built even from the start, but they were bold enough to at least proclaim the desire. Heck, even around 1990 I remember seeing a wall of concept art in the welcome center in Ocala for things like the Swiss pavilion. Dream big, I say.

There were two areas where you would have found concept art and models of what Imagineering was conjuring up. I mentioned CommiCore. That was one area. The other area was on Main Street, near where the Walt Disney Story used to be.

I also remember one of those areas (I forget which one) had all the Disney Decade plans on display during 1990. It showed Mt. Fuji (an indoor roller coaster ride) and a shopping district for Japan, Russia with its Kremlin replica, Switzerland (with Matterhorn Mountain), Journey to the Center of the Earth (for Adventureland), a Wild West CircleVision 360 film for Frontierland, Roger Rabbit's Hollywood for DHS, Tower of Terror, a Hollywood-themed resort, and lots more that I can't remember.

Can you post your father's people mover plans? I am an urban futurist nut and would love to see them!

 

[po1998]

Looking at the list on page 1 is very disappointing. Nothing in terms of projects that have been announced for either EC or DHS. I know Disney Springs is underway, and Avatarland also, but in terms of new attractions(not add one, drop one), not much.

Amazing that Disney Springs and Magic Bands(or whatever the heck the formal name is for that fiasco) will cost millions or billions(I haven't paid that close attention), but not yield a single attraction for the money spent. In the meantime, more DVC's...

 

[TP2000]

Looking at the list on page 1 is very disappointing. Nothing in terms of projects that have been announced for either EC or DHS. I know Disney Springs is underway, and Avatarland also, but in terms of new attractions(not add one, drop one), not much.

Agreed. I haven't really been following this thread since it started, but just dropped in today.

At the midway point in the decade, the 2010's at WDW seem to be defined by expanding DVC, bus and transport changes, a remodeled shopping mall, and Avatarland. New rides got a surprise pop due to Frozen becoming a cultural phenom and forcing the Norway pavilion to get a Princess makeover.

Don't forget Starbucks as a thing we "track".

It's not exactly a new Golden Age, is it?

 

[misterID]

Now, in their defense, that Starbucks in EPCOT is pretty friggin awesome.

I remember when the Mysterious Island/Beastly Kingdom hybrid in AK, the Imagination! refurb in EPCOT and Monster Inc coaster in DHS were actually realistic. It all went downhill with the Space Mountain refurb. The moment TDO cheaped out on it, and got away with it, everything else died. Ahhhh, this is so sad.

 

[PeterAlt]

Now, in their defense, that Starbucks in EPCOT is pretty friggin awesome.

I remember when the Mysterious Island/Beastly Kingdom hybrid in AK, the Imagination! refurb in EPCOT and Monster Inc coaster in DHS were actually realistic. It all went downhill with the Space Mountain refurb. The moment TDO cheaped out on it, and got away with it, everything else died. Ahhhh, this is so sad.

Yet we keep coming back for more. I've decided not to go back (except for DL) until Avatar opens or until they start building new (and good) attractions again. If more people also do this, maybe they'll get the hint.

 

[ASilmser]

Agreed. I haven't really been following this thread since it started, but just dropped in today.

At the midway point in the decade, the 2010's at WDW seem to be defined by expanding DVC, bus and transport changes, a remodeled shopping mall, and Avatarland. New rides got a surprise pop due to Frozen becoming a cultural phenom and forcing the Norway pavilion to get a Princess makeover.

Don't forget Starbucks as a thing we "track".

It's not exactly a new Golden Age, is it?

To quote a famous political figure, "It's the economy, stupid."

The economy has been on life support for eight years now. Businesses like WDW simply cannot risk a lot of capita. Even if they are drowning in cash, companies are waiting around for the next bubble to burst at any time. They don't want to have to go through what they did in 2001 and 2008. Uncertainty is rampant, especially in markets like Orlando. Disney World Golden years are in a holding pattern, probably for good reason. I am just glad they appear to be keeping the current inventory of attractions in working order.

This is not to say that we won't be seeing new stuff. I think the suits recognize you still need to freshen things up a little bit from time to time. It just won't be happening at the rate it was in the 90's. Or at a rate that makes us get giddy.

 

[unkadug]

To quote a famous political figure, "It's the economy, stupid."

The economy has been on life support for eight years now. Businesses like WDW simply cannot risk a lot of capital. Even if they are drowning in cash, companies are waiting around for the next bubble to burst at any time. They don't want to have to go through what they did in 2001 and 2008. Uncertainty is rampant, especially in markets like Orlando. Disney World Golden years are in a holding pattern, probably for good reason. I am just glad they appear to be keeping the current inventory of attractions in working order.

This is not to say that we won't be seeing new stuff. I think the suits recognize you still need to freshen things up a little bit from time to time. It just won't be happening at the rate it was in the 90's. Or at a rate that makes us get giddy.

I have to disagree with several of your points.

The Orlando market has nothing to do with the WDW market as WDW is not dependent upon the Orlando economy.

They are not keeping the current inventory of attraction in good working order.

Businesses like WDW need to invest their capital in order to keep past guests returning, for even in a depressed market people with still spend money on their family.

The main reason we won't see major expansion like we did in the 90's is because the powers that be would rather have their yearly mega million bonuses than to invest in the future.

 

[twebber55]

To quote a famous political figure, "It's the economy, stupid."

The economy has been on life support for eight years now. Businesses like WDW simply cannot risk a lot of capita. Even if they are drowning in cash, companies are waiting around for the next bubble to burst at any time. They don't want to have to go through what they did in 2001 and 2008. Uncertainty is rampant, especially in markets like Orlando. Disney World Golden years are in a holding pattern, probably for good reason. I am just glad they appear to be keeping the current inventory of attractions in working order.

This is not to say that we won't be seeing new stuff. I think the suits recognize you still need to freshen things up a little bit from time to time. It just won't be happening at the rate it was in the 90's. Or at a rate that makes us get giddy.

Universal seemed to do ok during this economy...record growth even

 

[ASilmser]

Universal seemed to do ok during this economy...record growth even

Universal is a much smaller property. Universal got aggressive in order to gain a greater share of the market in the Orlando area, however, they will only make a small dent in the Disney share. This is not a bad thing; they knew it. It is just mathematically impossible for them to compete with Disney World as equals; so their expansion/investment plans are vastly different than Disney's for this reason. Uni is trying to pull days/dollars from the typical Disney vacation, but they are also trying to compete with all of the other central FL destinations. Because of what they have done in this decade, In the "other than Disney" category among Orlando attractions, UNI is king.

Universal will benefit greatly from their recent expansion because they will secure themselves as the premiere "second stop" in Orlando. They have attractions on par with Disney--and some that are arguably better. For the fanbois, locals, and an minuscule percentage of tourists, choosing Universal over Disneyworld is a matter of debate. For just about everyone else, Universal is what you do in addition to your Disney vacation. Universal takes a few crumbs away from Disney, and a big chunk away from everyone else. Both Disney and Uni survive, even in a slow growth economy.

In short, Universal's aggressive growth plan and Disney's trickle-growth plan EACH make sense for this this economy if you consider the difference in physical size, budget, and share of the vacation dollars spent in Orlando.

 

[ASilmser]

I have to disagree with several of your points.

The Orlando market has nothing to do with the WDW market as WDW is not dependent upon the Orlando economy.

They are not keeping the current inventory of attraction in good working order.

Businesses like WDW need to invest their capital in order to keep past guests returning, for even in a depressed market people with still spend money on their family.

The main reason we won't see major expansion like we did in the 90's is because the powers that be would rather have their yearly mega million bonuses than to invest in the future.

When I said Orlando Market, I meant the share of tourists in the Orlando area. You are correct that WDW is not dependent on the Orlando economy. It's the other way around. I'd say that's one of the reasons that WDW hurts more than the other Disney resorts when there is a down economy. WDW is in a relatively small city. All other Disney resorts are near much larger metro areas, and the resorts are much smaller. When things go South, those properties take less of a hit because they have a local economy (and local visitors) to help keep it afloat. They also don't have the hotel room inventory to fill that WDW has.

Current inventory of attractions not in good working order? Not sure what you mean. . .Yeti? Perhaps there's an argument to be made about old Mr. Disco. Too many things at WDW are old, outdated, or empty--I won't deny that. But most of the attractions that are running right now are in as good a shape as they have been in a long time. WDW doesn't seem to be cutting back on its refurb schedule at all. I also think there is SOME truth to your argument that they could gain some business from the excitement of a few more new projects, but to what degree?

Not trying to be rude, but you are being simplistic if you just want to believe that greed is the only thing driving the WDW expansion plans in the 2010's. Disney doesn't want to spend a lot of capital on vast new developments, hire thousands of people, only to watch things go bust. That liability would put the current employees and current attractions in jeopardy. You can argue that it would be worth the risk, but you cannot deny that there would be risk.

You could also say that MM+ is a factor in this whole mix too. They've spent a lot on that, probably more than they should. Despite what anyone--for or against it--says, the return on that investment is just a big fat question mark right now.

You don't have to agree with the reasons that Disney is being less aggressive than in the 90's,--for what it's worth, I think they are being a bit too conservative--but, for purposes of this discussion, I think it makes sense to point out that the people in charge aren't trying to run things into the ground, even if you think they might be a little spineless. It's because, just like the rest of us, they are not seeing a robust economic recovery in the near future. The 90's were a vastly different economic setting.

DVC Contemporary, DVC Floridian, Disney Springs, Star Tours 2.0, New Fantasyland, Test Tron, Spaceship Earth Reboot, Rupunza-potties, and minor the tweeks and fixes that are being put in to place: These all are attempts to keep the current situation at WDW in a decent quality holding pattern. This way, they can just forge ahead with new attractions without having to spend a ton of cash to upgrade the old stuff too.

At any rate, I think we will be hearing about some new stuff announced pretty soon after the Holiday season (just a hunch; I have no information/evidence to support my theory). We will see if it's enough to get us pumped, or just have us grunt, "It's about time!"

 

[gonnichi]

Yet we keep coming back for more. I've decided not to go back (except for DL) until Avatar opens or until they start building new (and good) attractions again. If more people also do this, maybe they'll get the hint.

I'm with you on this. I'm done with WDW for awhile. I have planned a trip to DLR this fall. We will be there only for one day to see the original park. We usually spend a whole week at WDW. There is just to many other great things to do in California that all I can spare is one day for Disney there.

 

[PeterAlt]

I'm with you on this. I'm done with WDW for awhile. I have planned a trip to DLR this fall. We will be there only for one day to see the original park. We usually spend a whole week at WDW. There is just to many other great things to do in California that all I can spare is one day for Disney there.

One day is enough. Just be sure to get a park-hopper. Do DCA first and spend the rest of your time at DL. That's what I've done all three times I've been there!

 

[lazyboy97o]

Uni is trying to pull days/dollars from the typical Disney vacation, but they are also trying to compete with all of the other central FL destinations.

That is not true. Universal Orlando Resort has been able to be a significant driver of increased driver tourism tot he orlando area. They're not just pulling days anymore, but starting to be more and more the primary reason for an Orlando visit.

 

[rle4lunch]

That is not true. Universal Orlando Resort has been able to be a significant driver of increased driver tourism tot he orlando area. They're not just pulling days anymore, but starting to be more and more the primary reason for an Orlando visit.

I don't know if I could agree with this. In my families last visit to WDW, we did 5 days total in Orlando. 4 days at WDW with the 1 day in the middle spent at Uni. One day was enough there to take in the main rides, and that's even lugging around both our mom's that are in their 60's, 2 people that haven't ever been to a big theme park, and 1 weirdo 25 year old cousin who is so particular with what she rides/eats that she might as well be 5 years old. We were able to ride all of Harry Potter land rides twice, the big coasters around the park and water rides, along with all that Dr. Suess crap (such a cheap looking addition, kindred spirit to something at Six Flags), eat breakfast, eat lunch, and leave the park at 630pm to head to dinner. This was the first week of December 2012. Disney was wall-to-wall people, Uni was empty.

 

[Philharmagically]

I know a lot of people have been moving their vacations to DL. I would do that... But that would mean (as an overseas visitor) that I wouldn't get to see Gringotts! I think in some ways, Uni's innovation/expansion is actually just helping WDW's numbers, being bolstered by overseas fanboys/girls. Because if you're going to Florida for a massive trip, why wouldn't you go to Disney? Even with the lack of expansion in 2 of the parks.

 

[Philharmagically]

Also, for us overseas visitors, we only go every 4 or 5 years. Last time I went to MK, toon town was only just starting to be demolished to make way for NFL. But I do understand that for the local or regional visitors who go more frequently, it isn't enough progress to make a return visit as exciting.

 

[Bairstow]

I know a lot of people have been moving their vacations to DL. I would do that... But that would mean (as an overseas visitor) that I wouldn't get to see Gringotts! I think in some ways, Uni's innovation/expansion is actually just helping WDW's numbers, being bolstered by overseas fanboys/girls. Because if you're going to Florida for a massive trip, why wouldn't you go to Disney? Even with the lack of expansion in 2 of the parks.

I think you're exactly right- right now, Disney is probably profiting from the first and second stages of the Potter expansion just as much as Universal is.
The tipping point, at least for domestic guests, is going to be when Universal opens a third gate, or otherwise controls and offers enough theme park offerings to occupy a family for a full 3 days, because at that point Disney can be cut out of the vacation entirely.

For an international guest like yourself who has to cross a sea to visit, that change won't be as important.

In the meantime, merchandise and souvenir sales, not park tickets, are the only place where Universal is actually taking a bite out of Disney's business.

 

[Philharmagically]

In the meantime, merchandise and souvenir sales, not park tickets, are the only place where Universal is actually taking a bite out of Disney's business.

I agree with that. I am saving up for merch in WWoHP, which will result in me spending less at Disney. You can buy Disney toys from almost anywhere. But official Harry Potter wands, costumes and food? Not as likely.

 

[whiterhino42]

To quote a famous political figure, "It's the economy, stupid."

The economy has been on life support for eight years now. Businesses like WDW simply cannot risk a lot of capita. Even if they are drowning in cash, companies are waiting around for the next bubble to burst at any time. They don't want to have to go through what they did in 2001 and 2008. Uncertainty is rampant, especially in markets like Orlando. Disney World Golden years are in a holding pattern, probably for good reason. I am just glad they appear to be keeping the current inventory of attractions in working order.

This is not to say that we won't be seeing new stuff. I think the suits recognize you still need to freshen things up a little bit from time to time. It just won't be happening at the rate it was in the 90's. Or at a rate that makes us get giddy.

Tell that to Universal! I'm not buying the argument. We are the only family I know that still goes to Disney...... everyone else loves universal.
I'm a bit of a ride wimp....Dinasaur is as scary as I do so universal wouldn't be for me. Son & hubby would love it so I don't want them to find out lol