Two dozen Disney IT workers prepare to sue over foreign replacements

LuvtheGoof

Grill Master
Premium Member
They are a public company that illicit investments through their stock from people like you and me who work hard, save, and invest. Whether it's because we want assets for retirement, to put our kids kids through college, or to buy a sports car...it makes no difference. Their fiduciary responsibility is to those that fall into this category. This is what it means to be a public company.
And cost cutting might be fine if the company were not reporting record profits. And they were reporting those record profits before they did the layoffs. If they are doing badly, then ask the workers to take a pay cut to help the company through the bad times. I don't see Iger taking any pay cuts because the company is doing so badly! Do you? So there may be a responsibility to shareholders, but that is not their SOLE responsibility.

Major companies always talk about how people are their most important asset, yet those same companies lay off people left and right to outsource to an overseas worker who is not as well trained, not as experienced, and makes little to no money compared to the U.S. person, and has no personal investment in the company to do a good job. If these workers get a better offer, even as little as 15 cents/hour, they jump ship immediately as there is no company loyalty. If a company shows loyalty to it's workers, they will get loyalty in return. Unfortunately, companies treat their employees like chattel nowadays and couldn't care less about loyalty. And Disney is NO exception to this either.
 

"El Scorpion"

Premium Member
In the Parks
No
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Politicians and bureaucrats in Washington don't sit around dreaming up programs like H1B on their own. Businesses lobby for them.

Wasn't referencing just the politicians and bureaucrats. The lobbyists are in Washington too. It's just the culture that we breed. Disney is taking advantage of that culture. Nothing we post or say will change Disney. The only way it changes...is if the culture changes.
 

"El Scorpion"

Premium Member
In the Parks
No
And cost cutting might be fine if the company were not reporting record profits. And they were reporting those record profits before they did the layoffs. If they are doing badly, then ask the workers to take a pay cut to help the company through the bad times. I don't see Iger taking any pay cuts because the company is doing so badly! Do you? So there may be a responsibility to shareholders, but that is not their SOLE responsibility.

Major companies always talk about how people are their most important asset, yet those same companies lay off people left and right to outsource to an overseas worker who is not as well trained, not as experienced, and makes little to no money compared to the U.S. person, and has no personal investment in the company to do a good job. If these workers get a better offer, even as little as 15 cents/hour, they jump ship immediately as there is no company loyalty. If a company shows loyalty to it's workers, they will get loyalty in return. Unfortunately, companies treat their employees like chattel nowadays and couldn't care less about loyalty. And Disney is NO exception to this either.

I'm not saying that your rational is wrong..just saying that- That's the way it is. Disney is acting as a Public Company that is looking to increase its profits. The fact that they had record profits last year is of no consequence. Any public company would want more. Loyalty is a fine attribute. But it is not as abundant as it once was (try employing a millennial). I'm a GenX'er myself and I get hard work, loyalty, experience, dedication, and pride of accomplishment. But these are different times we live in. If Disney sticks to the moral high-ground, they get left behind. Not saying it is right...just the way it is.
 

LuvtheGoof

Grill Master
Premium Member
If Disney sticks to the moral high-ground, they get left behind. Not saying it is right...just the way it is.
Hmm, and exactly whom is there to leave them behind?? Universal? Sea World? ESPN is the top sports network. Disney is at the top of theater world. Cutting a few IT jobs is not going to leave them behind. Actually, hiring workers that don't have a clue what they are doing is leaving the company behind more than anything. Hiring top talent always wins out the day, and you have to pay for that talent.

I have been in the IT career field for 40 years now and see it first hand what outsourcing does. You're working with one person this week, a totally different person the next week because the first person left for a new job, and the new person has no clue what is going on, so takes weeks to figure it out, and then that person leaves for a better job. Rinse and repeat. Happens ALL the time.
 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
I'd be more PO'd at the buffoons in Washington for creating an environment that rewards this type of behavior, rather than the company which exploits it.
It's the other way around though.

Major corporations lobby Washington hard to create this environment. It's all about lobbying to create laws and tax codes that are favorable to corporations, not citizens.

Disney has a sophisticated lobbying network, spending many millions directly or indirectly. Disney is extremely conscious of its public persona as a family friendly company and does a lot of back door lobbying in order to not stain that reputation.

One of the dirty little secrets is that, for many corporations, their lobbying groups provide the best rates of return within the entire organization. Manipulation of the H1B visa program is a highly profitable endeavor.

It would be naive to think that Disney doesn't know it's violating the intent of the H1B program and, knowing this, hasn't created a business arrangement to allow it plausible deniability.

In the wake of this lawsuit, Disney is hoping its good name will be enough to protect its reputation in the eyes of the consumer and that its business arrangement will be sufficient so that the public gives Disney the benefit of the doubt.
 
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"El Scorpion"

Premium Member
In the Parks
No
Hmm, and exactly whom is there to leave them behind?? Universal? Sea World? ESPN is the top sports network. Disney is at the top of theater world. Cutting a few IT jobs is not going to leave them behind. Actually, hiring workers that don't have a clue what they are doing is leaving the company behind more than anything. Hiring top talent always wins out the day, and you have to pay for that talent.

I have been in the IT career field for 40 years now and see it first hand what outsourcing does. You're working with one person this week, a totally different person the next week because the first person left for a new job, and the new person has no clue what is going on, so takes weeks to figure it out, and then that person leaves for a better job. Rinse and repeat. Happens ALL the time.

I had an office in Bangalore. It was a disaster. Unfortunately the buzzword is Minimally Viable Product (MVP), Not "Best of Breed" or above average, just the basic minimal product I can take to market to recognize profit. Unfortunately evolution of the product (or business) is an afterthought. Too many ROI and P&L forecasts fall victim.
 

zooey

Well-Known Member
What loophole would that be?

You absolutely can blame an entity that willfully violates a law or rule knowing they are doing so. A "loophole" if one exists doesn't excuse bad behavior.
My point is that corporations are not moral entities. They are machines built to make money. It takes a singular leader to force them into ethical behavior... This can be a CEO or a government. But if given free reign they will use loopholes or gray areas to their advantage.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
What loophole would that be?

You absolutely can blame an entity that willfully violates a law or rule knowing they are doing so. A "loophole" if one exists doesn't excuse bad behavior.
It's one thing to supplement your IT staff with offshore for after hours service and other responsibilities that do not require significant expertise, it's quite another to bring in a company and force your employees to train their staff who replace you. I like the idea of supplementing staff so your IT staff can be well rested and ready for the next battle, but what Disney did makes me sick.
The loophole in most of these cases (cannot remember if it is true with Disney in particular) is that those on the visa are not replacement workers. The visa holders are instead documenting positions with their specialized skill being that they can do so in a manner that is fully understood by a future foreign worker.
 

Tom P.

Well-Known Member
But here's the uncomfortable question...

How many of us who are in this thread decrying this action by Disney are going to be booking a vacation at Walt Disney World some time in the next year or two? I'd venture to guess most of us. I'm not judging anyone -- I guarantee you that my family and I will be back at WDW in that time frame. Not to mention the fact my wife and I will be in the theater seeing The Force Awakens on opening night, our kids will still be going to Disney movies, and we're likely buying them Disney Infinity 3.0 for Christmas.

The point, though, is that as long as the average consumer -- all of us included -- is still willing to purchase the products and services that Disney offers, the message they are getting is unmistakably that we are happy with the way they are running their business. That translates to dollars, and that's the only message that matters in the business world. The only way things will truly change is if Disney's business starts to falter and customers make it known why. Customers who complain while still giving Disney their dollars are not going to be listened to.

Again, I'm not judging anyone. My family and I are not prepared to cut ties to Disney either. I'm just saying that's the reality of the situation.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
But here's the uncomfortable question...

How many of us who are in this thread decrying this action by Disney are going to be booking a vacation at Walt Disney World some time in the next year or two? I'd venture to guess most of us. I'm not judging anyone -- I guarantee you that my family and I will be back at WDW in that time frame. Not to mention the fact my wife and I will be in the theater seeing The Force Awakens on opening night, our kids will still be going to Disney movies, and we're likely buying them Disney Infinity 3.0 for Christmas.

The point, though, is that as long as the average consumer -- all of us included -- is still willing to purchase the products and services that Disney offers, the message they are getting is unmistakably that we are happy with the way they are running their business. That translates to dollars, and that's the only message that matters in the business world. The only way things will truly change is if Disney's business starts to falter and customers make it known why. Customers who complain while still giving Disney their dollars are not going to be listened to.

Again, I'm not judging anyone. My family and I are not prepared to cut ties to Disney either. I'm just saying that's the reality of the situation.
Except that Disney is not some discount retailer with minuscule margins. People are clearly willing to pay the prices that would support a higher paid workforce.
 

Tom P.

Well-Known Member
Except that Disney is not some discount retailer with minuscule margins. People are clearly willing to pay the prices that would support a higher paid workforce.
But why would they? No one is dissatisfied enough with the products and services they are providing to stop paying for them. That's my point. You can say "they should do it because it's the right thing to do" all you want. But the reality is that doesn't matter. Not to Disney and not to any other large corporation. Only when their cutting corners causes people to say "I'm not going to Walt Disney World until this changes" will they change.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
It's the other way around though.

Major corporations lobby Washington hard to create this environment. It's all about lobbying to create laws and tax codes that are favorable to corporations, not citizens.

Disney has a sophisticated lobbying network, spending many millions directly or indirectly. Disney is extremely conscious of its public persona as a family friendly company and does a lot of back door lobbying in order to not stain that reputation.

One of the dirty little secrets is that, for many corporations, their lobbying groups provide the best rates of return within the entire organization. Manipulation of the H1B visa program is a highly profitable endeavor.

It would be naive to think that Disney doesn't know it's violating the intent of the H1B program and, knowing this, hasn't created a business arrangement to allow it plausible deniability.

In the wake of this lawsuit, Disney is hoping its good name will be enough to protect its reputation in the eyes of the consumer and that its business arrangement will be sufficient so that the public gives Disney the benefit of the doubt.

Actually, I think it's because of Disney's 'Good Name' and record profits that Disney's legal team will have an uphill battle in winning this one, The alphabet soup worker visa program has been smouldering for a while, Back in 2008 Cisco almost got badly burned (and the fire started) when a online job application system for the US basically said 'Only H1B Visa Holders are invited to apply', They were saved by the fiscal crisis

Now you have the trifecta of Disney, Record low labor participation and immigration outrage. Disney with it's actions probably just lit the fuse which will blow the entire edifice up. Make no mistake Disney is going to throw everything including the kitchen sink at this. But I don't believe it will make a bit of difference.
 

Ben_since_1971

Well-Known Member
I have worked in IT for over 20 years. I have had to recently change careers because I could not compete with off-shore visa holders who could work for pennies on the dollar. I saw first hand how one of these loopholes work while consulting at a major credit card company. Every other week we were having good bye parties for someone heading back because his visa ran out and the very next Monday there would be a new visa fresh from overseas.

What Disney did is not new. I doubt something like this is going to go anywhere. It is technically legal. The loopholes are big enough to drive a lumberjack truck through. It is only going to change if Congress decides to close the loopholes.

A few years ago I stumbled across a Dan Rather Reports story on this very thing. The video is over 13 minutes, but is 101 for what is happening.
 

note2001

Well-Known Member
As to the discrimination aspect of this lawsuit, although it does sound ridiculous, none of us were in any of the discussions between Disney management, the employees and the replacement trainees. Things may have been said to prompt this. We just don't know.

IT budgets usually go down or stay flat each year. Therefore there is pressure to cut costs and typically personnel are the easiest and quickest way....unfortunately

That is the source of all trouble right there, not only within Disney, but at most companies. All these non-IT based companies feel that technology is there to be put in place, and forgotten about. Like with adding walls, wiring and AC/heating ducts to improve a property, they believe the budget should go down in years after the in ital installs or upgrades. A better comparison would be IT = healthcare. You have to keep after the technical health of the company, invest in some programs that will improve your health, prepare for viruses, anticipate emergency room visits, and work to keep up with the cost of the doctors and nurses whos costs do not go down (unless you plan on outsourcing to the local "healthcare in a can" walk-in centers)

Someone needs to educate these CEOs and lecture them until they can visualize how it works. Whey they go cheap they end up in critical care.
 
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Frankie The Beer

Well-Known Member
No chance this haunts Disney. At all. No chance of any suggested settlement to these publicity seekers either. I find it hard to believe people don't think Disney's legal representation dotted every I and crossed every T before they made a decision such as this. These people are not fools and its amusing when people think they are. Corporate business is a tough racket. Coffee is for closer's,
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
No chance this haunts Disney. At all. No chance of any suggested settlement to these publicity seekers either. I find it hard to believe people don't think Disney's legal representation dotted every I and crossed every T before they made a decision such as this. These people are not fools and its amusing when people think they are. Corporate business is a tough racket. Coffee is for closer's,
Because Disney doesn't win every case and their lawyers aren't gods.
 

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