Tiana's Bayou Adventure: Disneyland Watch & Discussion

[DavidDL]

I wonder if they’re saving the ride details for D23?

They need something to talk about.

I hope so! I'm excited to see what they cook up on the inside of this thing!

On an unrelated note, the more I look at the model for TBA, the more I'm not hating the idea of the water tower. That's going to sound silly to many, I'm sure, and obviously I will reserve final judgement for seeing it in person. But I think both the removal of the tree trunk and the inclusion of this new focal point (plus the Bayou trees) are intended to make the mountain/drop feel smaller than before (visually).

In short, if implemented properly, they might make the mountain feel less like a mountain. Which in this case is a good thing given that New Orleans is typically not associated with them and it may make the attraction look more approachable/appealing to younger Guests who like Tiana but may have otherwise been too afraid to originally ride.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Please tell me someone else who at the time brought the same amount of notoriety to these tales.

The brothers Grimm didn't write every tale, they compiled. Yes, Harris' compilation has his mark, however the underlying tales represent the stories that were told by those people much more accurately than a reworked Brothers Grimm fairytale.

A better source:

The Annotated African American Folktales (The Annotated Books) https://a.co/d/9KJeQs6

 

[Professortango1]

The Tales are appropriated from slaves. I studied the Tales in graduate school. Harris, more likely than not, made up some of the stories himself and didn’t get every exact detail from what was shared with him. He wrote them. He gets the credit for the Uncle Remus Tales. No matter how folks try and spin it, both PatF/TBA and SotS/Splash come from white people.

Again, folks should not be looking to Joel Chandler Harris as the source for the folklore.

Kind of weird to discount folklore and stories sharing African American culture just because it was compiled and set on the page by a white man. I mean, let's look at the time when these stories were published. These stories were not minstrel tales or dehumanizing, they were in fact getting white folks familiar with African American voices in a time where there weren't a ton of options. Also a back-written and published best-seller wasn't a likely scenario in that setting, so a white man using his position and power to amplify black voices and culture isn't exactly the worst thing in the world.

Disney made Princess and the Frog in the mid 2000's. If they wanted to tell a story about black culture and voices, they could have found source material from those communities. They could have hired directors from those communities. But they didn't.

I understand the protests of Song of the South in terms of the time it occurred. Black Americans were not too far from minstrel shows and black face and equal rights were still a ways off. Being seen as the friendly slave (or sharecropper) was a recent scar that the community was wanting to heal from and get away from.

And while Tiana isn't Uncle Remus with a big warm smile 100% of the time and certainly isn't a sharecropper, she does exist in a world where racism isn't really a thing. White characters are happy to help and not see her as different. The only trouble she runs into socially is due to her being a woman of little means, not of color. The villain is a 1920's era stereotype of the evil Voodoo black man looking to use black magic to attack others.

It seems both films have their issues, but one is vilified socially and the other is celebrated.

 

[DavidDL]

..., she does exist in a world where racism isn't really a thing. White characters are happy to help and not see her as different. ...

Not entirely.

There's also the entire opening segment of the film that very clearly shows the disparity between the area where Tiana/her mother works and where they live. They hop on a trolley and leave an area of southern wealth and ride to an impoverished neighborhood. It's part of her character in the film and certainly shows (albeit lightly) that she likely faces many of the systemic challenges of our real world.

 

[Professortango1]

Not entirely.

View attachment 720868

There's also the entire opening segment of the film that very clearly shows the disparity between the area where Tiana/her mother works and where they/she live/s. She hops on a trolley and leaves and area of southern wealth and rides to an impoverished neighborhood. It's part of her character in the film and certainly shows (albeit lightly) that she likely faces many of the systemic challenges of our real world.

View attachment 720872 View attachment 720873

Yes, I said that she receives incredibly mild discrimination based upon her being a woman of limited means, not because of her race. The movie is focused on perceived wealth, not race.

Prince Naveen is a person of high status and clout, despite being a person of color
Lawrence is white, yet his jealousy of Naveen isn't based upon race but the wealth and power the family has
Tiana believes Prince Naveen to be able to help her because he's a Prince, despite him being a frog/person of color.
Naveen believes Tiana is a wealthy Princess due to her costume, despite her being a woman of color
Charlotte believes Lawrence to be Naveen based on her perception of him
Lawrence wants to marry Charlotte based on the wealth her family represents, not her race

To claim the Fenner's are turning her down at the end due to race just isn't supported by the film. The film establishes a world where wealth and power and the perception of it are the themes, and these statuses and desires are not tied to any racial identity within the world of the film. The film doesn't feature any person of color being affected by racism or their situation being a result of institutional racism.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Kind of weird to discount folklore and stories sharing African American culture just because it was compiled and set on the page by a white man. I mean, let's look at the time when these stories were published. These stories were not minstrel tales or dehumanizing, they were in fact getting white folks familiar with African American voices in a time where there weren't a ton of options. Also a back-written and published best-seller wasn't a likely scenario in that setting, so a white man using his position and power to amplify black voices and culture isn't exactly the worst thing in the world.

Disney made Princess and the Frog in the mid 2000's. If they wanted to tell a story about black culture and voices, they could have found source material from those communities. They could have hired directors from those communities. But they didn't.

I understand the protests of Song of the South in terms of the time it occurred. Black Americans were not too far from minstrel shows and black face and equal rights were still a ways off. Being seen as the friendly slave (or sharecropper) was a recent scar that the community was wanting to heal from and get away from.

And while Tiana isn't Uncle Remus with a big warm smile 100% of the time and certainly isn't a sharecropper, she does exist in a world where racism isn't really a thing. White characters are happy to help and not see her as different. The only trouble she runs into socially is due to her being a woman of little means, not of color. The villain is a 1920's era stereotype of the evil Voodoo black man looking to use black magic to attack others.

It seems both films have their issues, but one is vilified socially and the other is celebrated.

It’s not weird at all. It’s actually commonly questioned and discounted amongst scholars.

Do you honestly think white families were elated about reading appropriated stories stemming from African and African American culture during those times? That they were gaining all this knowledge about the culture? They were hee-hawing with Uncle Remus.

The rest of your post has nothing to do with my original point, which is that both IPs come from white people. As you pointed out, Disney didn’t look to the culture to write an original movie in the 2000s, just as they didn’t do in the 1940s when SotS was being developed. Same thing.

 

[DavidDL]

Yes, I said that she receives incredibly mild discrimination based upon her being a woman of limited means, not because of her race. The movie is focused on perceived wealth, not race.

Prince Naveen is a person of high status and clout, despite being a person of color
Lawrence is white, yet his jealousy of Naveen isn't based upon race but the wealth and power the family has
Tiana believes Prince Naveen to be able to help her because he's a Prince, despite him being a frog/person of color.
Naveen believes Tiana is a wealthy Princess due to her costume, despite her being a woman of color
Charlotte believes Lawrence to be Naveen based on her perception of him
Lawrence wants to marry Charlotte based on the wealth her family represents, not her race

To claim the Fenner's are turning her down at the end due to race just isn't supported by the film. The film establishes a world where wealth and power and the perception of it are the themes, and these statuses and desires are not tied to any racial identity within the world of the film. The film doesn't feature any person of color being affected by racism or their situation being a result of institutional racism.

How exactly do you think Tiana and her family ended up as a family of "limited means" to begin with? Or how others ended up in the southern mansions? Because of systemic injustices baked into her world just like our own. To point out that she is discriminated against because of her limited means is to acknowledge that something put her family there to begin with. I think the film makes it pretty clear what contributed to that. To say the film doesn't feature "any person of color being affected by racism or their situation being the result of institutional racism" is to just happen to ignore that everyone shown in Tiana's impoverished neighborhood is Black.

Again, why do you think this is the case for them? Did they all make bad investments on Wall Street? Do they all have a gambling addiction? Did they all choose to live there instead of the mansions down the way? I don't think so.

-and yes, Naveen and Lawrence flip the stereotype on its head but they are from a different country.

 

[Professortango1]

It’s not weird at all. It’s actually commonly questioned and discounted amongst scholars.

Do you honestly think white families were elated about reading appropriated stories stemming from African and African American culture during those times? That they were gaining all this knowledge about the culture? They were hee-hawing with Uncle Remus.

The rest of your post has nothing to do with my original point, which is that both IPs come from white people. As you pointed out, Disney didn’t look to the culture to write an original movie in the 2000s, just as they didn’t do in the 1940s when SotS was being developed. Same thing.

But the stories featured in Song of the South were gathered from the culture. Gathered by a white man, but at least the stories were from the maligned group that they were presenting. To claim that Song of the South and PatF are the same in terms of featuring black voices is disingenuous.

And white people of the time were happy to be reading fun children's stories. They were laughing at B'rer Rabbit's pigheadedness, B'rer Bear's bafoonery, and B'rer Fox's comeuppance. Uncle Remus was just the non-threatening story teller. Which Harris could have made white, but kept black to tie these stories to black culture and to help white people see black people as actual humans.

 

[Californian Elitist]

But the stories featured in Song of the South were gathered from the culture. Gathered by a white man, but at least the stories were from the maligned group that they were presenting. To claim that Song of the South and PatF are the same in terms of featuring black voices is disingenuous.

And white people of the time were happy to be reading fun children's stories. They were laughing at B'rer Rabbit's pigheadedness, B'rer Bear's bafoonery, and B'rer Fox's comeuppance. Uncle Remus was just the non-threatening story teller. Which Harris could have made white, but kept black to tie these stories to black culture and to help white people see black people as actual humans.

They weren’t, though. They were gathered from Joel Chandler Harris. Remus is made up by Harris himself. Walt Disney credited Harris for the stories he was adapting into a film.

I didn’t claim they’re the same in terms of featuring black voices. I said they’re the same in the sense that both come from white people. The Remus Tales don’t come from black voices. And, if we’re being perfectly honest, PatF/Tiana are more relevant to the culture than SotS/Uncle Remus Tales will ever be.

If Remus was supposed to help white people see black people as human, why did Harris make him an Uncle Tom figure who spits on the idea of black people getting educated and is a Confederate sympathizer?

 

[Professortango1]

How exactly do you think Tiana and her family ended up as a family of "limited means" to begin with? Or how others ended up in the southern mansions? Because of systemic injustices baked into her world just like our own. To point out that she is discriminated against because of her limited means is to acknowledge that something put her family there to begin with. I think the film makes it pretty clear what contributed to that. To say the film doesn't feature "any person of color being affected by racism or their situation being the result of institutional racism" is to just happen to ignore that everyone shown in Tiana's impoverished neighborhood is Black.

View attachment 720883

Again, why do you think this is the case for them? Did they all make bad investments on Wall Street? Do they all have a gambling addiction? I don't think so.

-and yes, Naveen and Lawrence flip the stereotype on it's head but they are from a different country.

You are inferring things the movie doesn't discuss. There is no institutional racism in the film unless you wish to infer it from a minor detail like her community being people of color. But not soley people of color. A white man leaning on a porch is seen when she arrives home as a child. Tiana is also almost hit on by a wealthy looking black man in the street car. The women who fawn over Naveen when he gets off the boat are 4 white women and 1 black. Doesn't appear that his race is a problem with people in this city. So much that even Duke's isn't segregated and has both white and black customers without issue. Let's also not forget that the film also features a poor redneck family as well.

So, the film has zero racial divide in place. There's wealthy people of color and poor people of color. There are wealthy whit people and poor white people. Tiana's race never informs how another character treats her. Neither does Naveen's.

Disney made a standard rags to riches fairy tale and made some characters people of color. Casting Cinderella as a black woman doesn't suddenly mean the story deals with racism.

 

[BubbaisSleep]

I’d like to go for the food and music alone, but its history is rich. I want to see it all.

It’s the best city ever, you absolutely need to go!!
And always hit Frenchman street at least one evening too. They have clubs that play jazz music that get you dancing! The room was turnt up to the max! It was such a great experience.

 

[Professortango1]

They weren’t, though. They were gathered from Joel Chandler Harris. Remus is made up by Harris himself. Walt Disney credited Harris for the stories he was adapting into a film.

I didn’t claim they’re the same in terms of featuring black voices. I said they’re the same in the sense that both come from white people. The Remus Tales don’t come from black voices. And, if we’re being perfectly honest, PatF/Tiana are more relevant to the culture than SotS/Uncle Remus Tales will ever be.

If Remus was supposed to help white people see black people as human, why did Harris make him an Uncle Tom figure who spits on the idea of black people getting educated and is a Confederate sympathizer?

And who did Harris gather the stories from.....?

And I don't recall Remus being a Confederate sympathizer. As for Uncle Tom, the character, was against slavery. He stands up for his beliefs and his friends throughout novel.

 

[Californian Elitist]

And who did Harris gather the stories from.....?

And I don't recall Remus being a Confederate sympathizer. As for Uncle Tom, the character, was against slavery. He stands up for his beliefs and his friends throughout novel.

I’ve answered your question earlier. Someone asked the same thing.

He absolutely is a Confederate sympathizer. He’s a mid-1800s Southern black male who who affection towards white people. I’m referring to Harris’ Remus, not the Disney version, although he too is an Uncle Tom.

I’m not referring to the Uncle Tom. I’m referring to Remus being an Uncle Tom, a shuck and jiving black person who is sympathetic towards white people and craps on his own.

 

[Disney Analyst]

Not entirely.

View attachment 720868

There's also the entire opening segment of the film that very clearly shows the disparity between the area where Tiana/her mother works and where they live. They hop on a trolley and leave an area of southern wealth and ride to an impoverished neighborhood. It's part of her character in the film and certainly shows (albeit lightly) that she likely faces many of the systemic challenges of our real world.

View attachment 720872 View attachment 720873

This gif shows it correctly.

They do not say “a woman of little means”.

They say “a little woman of your background”, which was clearly a racist remark solely pointing to her being black as the reason she should move on and not try to achieve something more.

Racism is clearly implied in the film, if subtle, and anyone arguing otherwise is disingenuous.

 

[zipadee999]

???

Song of the South is based on the Uncle Remus Tales, written by Joel Chandler Harris…a white man.

To call Splash a ride that told African American/African folklore is quite disingenuous.

I clarified this in the other thread but I should do so here as well. JCH was a small child in the south and grew up with his family on a plantation. His parents often didn’t have time for him so he began to spend time with the workers. Many of the workers grew fond of him and he looked up to them as the family he never had. They soon began to tell him stories around the campfire about African folklore. This is where he first heard of Brer Rabbit. When he grew up and became an adult, JCH published written accounts of these stories so that they could be immortalized for the generations. He did this because of the profound impact they had on him as a child and wanted others to hear them too. By doing this, he intended to thank the people who raised him by immortalizing their legacy and heritage. It was a true tip of the hat. It’s almost like a record company that hears an incredible band and then decides to publish an album starring that band. They do it so the band becomes publicized and a firm part of music history. This was the same idea. Never once did he claim that the stories were his own, he made it clear that he was tipping his hat to those who had such a positive impact on him.

The characters of Brer Rabbit, Brer Fox, and Brer Bear are all descended from African folklore which was then published into writing from the oral tradition passed down to JCH. Because they stem from African folklore, an attraction starring them, as one would imagine, could be considered to have ties to African folklore.

 

[mickEblu]

The Tales are appropriated from slaves. I studied the Tales in graduate school. Harris, more likely than not, made up some of the stories himself and didn’t get every exact detail from what was shared with him. He wrote them. He gets the credit for the Uncle Remus Tales. No matter how folks try and spin it, both PatF/TBA and SotS/Splash come from white people.

Again, folks should not be looking to Joel Chandler Harris as the source for the folklore.

But everything gets watered down and reworked including the European fairy tales. At least the Brer stories had their roots in African folklore.

 

[BasiltheBatLord]

???

Song of the South is based on the Uncle Remus Tales, written by Joel Chandler Harris…a white man.

To call Splash a ride that told African American/African folklore is quite disingenuous.

I still don’t understand this argument. If Splash Mountain was based on the authentic folklore as opposed to the version as recorded by Harris, what would have been different about it?

 

[Californian Elitist]

I clarified this in the other thread but I should do so here as well. JCH was a small child in the south and grew up with his family on a plantation. His parents often didn’t have time for him so he began to spend time with the workers. Many of the workers grew fond of him and he looked up to them as the family he never had. They soon began to tell him stories around the campfire about African folklore. This is where he first heard of Brer Rabbit. When he grew up and became an adult, JCH published written accounts of these stories so that they could be immortalized for the generations. He did this because of the profound impact they had on him as a child and wanted others to hear them too. By doing this, he intended to thank the people who raised him by immortalizing their legacy and heritage. It was a true tip of the hat. It’s almost like a record company that hears an incredible band and then decides to publish an album starring that band. They do it so the band becomes publicized and a firm part of music history. This was the same idea. Never once did he claim that the stories were his own, he made it clear that he was tipping his hat to those who had such a positive impact on him.

The characters of Brer Rabbit, Brer Fox, and Brer Bear are all descended from African folklore which was then published into writing from the oral tradition passed down to JCH. Because they stem from African folklore, an attraction starring them, as one would imagine, could be considered to have ties to African folklore.

I’m well aware of Joel Chandler Harris’ life and how he appropriated the stories.

 

[Californian Elitist]

But everything gets watered down and reworked including the European fairy tales. At least the Brer stories had their roots in African folklore.

There’s quite a difference here between what JCH did and the various white people who have changed European tales.

No one was checking for African folklore and the African American/African roots of the Brers until Disney announced that the ride was closing. Now, all of a sudden, they matter.

 

[Californian Elitist]

I still don’t understand this argument. If Splash Mountain was based on the authentic folklore as opposed to the version as recorded by Harris, what would have been different about it?

It would have been authentic, as you hinted at, and wouldn’t have been based on SotS.