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Tiana's Bayou Adventure: Disneyland Watch & Discussion
- Thread starter Californian Elitist
- Start date
Still trying to connect the dots of a conspiracy theory that doesn't exist.
LittleBuford
Well-Known Member
From this very forum, all the way back in 2009:
Princess and the Frog & Splash Mountain
I just got home from watching the Princess and the Frog and I was wondering if anyone else had this strange connection. As I watched the movie, I could see disney turning Splash Mountain into a P&TF movie tie in. Not that this is something that I would want, but all during the Bayou scenes...
I don't know the answer to this: How was it 'shared'? I ask because some concept art is released officially by Disney PR, some is found on the artists' private website and never officially released by Disney.
mickEblu
Well-Known Member
I believe it was art they shared on the Disney Parks Blog but I’m not 100% sure
LittleBuford
Well-Known Member
@Brer Panther, two more for you, this time from 2018 and 2019:
forums.wdwmagic.com
forums.wdwmagic.com
I’m sure there are more (they’re easy enough to find with the search feature).
How Would You Retheme Splash Mountain?
Ok so recently, Splash Mountain at DL underwent a major refurbishment. Literally less than a week later most of the animatronics were malfunctioning again. If this continues for the next few years, I could see Disney wanting to replace the animatronics or (less favorably) retirement the entire...
The Miscellaneous Thought Thread
I’ll give you that Tokyo and WDW tell more of a linear story. I’m just not sold on the fact that that’s what they were trying to give us at DL. And if it was and they failed then it was a happy accident... for me at least. I like how the one at DL is like a fantasyland dark ride on roids. I...
I’m sure there are more (they’re easy enough to find with the search feature).
smooch
Well-Known Member
Why does that even matter at this point? Maybe Disney has been slowly developing the concept for years, maybe they created the concept art the day they posted the announcement, who knows. That doesn't change the fact that we are getting this ride by 2024. The earlier they started coming up with the concept the better and hopefully they're putting the proper amount of resources into this, but I don't understand why this is such a point of contention. I hope they had worked on the idea a good bit before announcing it, I think we all do. But nobody knows, but we have a trusted insider telling us it has been in development for a bit before the announcement so for now I will choose to believe that and it will change nothing.
Brer Panther
Well-Known Member
...okay, I'm going to go through each of these replies one at a time.
And isn't it kind of funny how everyone who believes that it was just a coincidence just so happens to also be a pro-rethemer? Another coincidence? I think not.
And it's not like Chambers has been doing anything to convince anyone that he's not responsible for this mess.e.
I'm going to repeat this... what we know for sure happened is that A) Frederick Chambers posted his idea for a Princess and the Frog retheme of Splash Mountain, B) the idea gained a lot of publicity and traction, with articles posted about it, C) petitions were started demanding that Disney retheme Splash Mountain to The Princess and the Frog, and D) Disney announced that they are going to do just that. I'm hardly the only one who thinks it wasn't just a coincidence. If anything, Disney's claim that it was "in the works for a year" just makes it all the more suspicious. When have they EVER claimed that one of their upcoming attractions was "in the works for a year" or whatever as part of the initial announcement? Why is it so necessary that they bring it up?
Just because you believe Disney's claims doesn't make them true.
And isn't it kind of funny how everyone who believes that it was just a coincidence just so happens to also be a pro-rethemer? Another coincidence? I think not.
From this very forum, all the way back in 2009:
Princess and the Frog & Splash Mountain
I just got home from watching the Princess and the Frog and I was wondering if anyone else had this strange connection. As I watched the movie, I could see disney turning Splash Mountain into a P&TF movie tie in. Not that this is something that I would want, but all during the Bayou scenes...
As I've said before, these posts did not get a weird amount of publicity, articles written about it, interviews with the ones who posted them, or petitions and push online to make the idea a reality. There were discussions about whether or not Splash Mountain should be rethemed ON THIS VERY SITE after Chambers posted his idea but before the retheme was announced. At best, it's possible some imagineer at Disney thought of the idea himself and suggested it at some point, but even if they did, there's no way that Chambers' idea wasn't responsible for the pitch getting greenlit. And if the idea had already been suggested multiple times before Chambers' pitch, it makes even less sense that everyone made such a huge deal over Chambers' idea.How Would You Retheme Splash Mountain?
Ok so recently, Splash Mountain at DL underwent a major refurbishment. Literally less than a week later most of the animatronics were malfunctioning again. If this continues for the next few years, I could see Disney wanting to replace the animatronics or (less favorably) retirement the entire...The Miscellaneous Thought Thread
I’ll give you that Tokyo and WDW tell more of a linear story. I’m just not sold on the fact that that’s what they were trying to give us at DL. And if it was and they failed then it was a happy accident... for me at least. I like how the one at DL is like a fantasyland dark ride on roids. I...
And it's not like Chambers has been doing anything to convince anyone that he's not responsible for this mess.e.
If they really had "worked on the idea for a good bit before announcing it", I'm pretty sure they would've at least had a closing date announced by now.
I'm going to repeat this... what we know for sure happened is that A) Frederick Chambers posted his idea for a Princess and the Frog retheme of Splash Mountain, B) the idea gained a lot of publicity and traction, with articles posted about it, C) petitions were started demanding that Disney retheme Splash Mountain to The Princess and the Frog, and D) Disney announced that they are going to do just that. I'm hardly the only one who thinks it wasn't just a coincidence. If anything, Disney's claim that it was "in the works for a year" just makes it all the more suspicious. When have they EVER claimed that one of their upcoming attractions was "in the works for a year" or whatever as part of the initial announcement? Why is it so necessary that they bring it up?
LittleBuford
Well-Known Member
No-one is calling the timing coincidence, though. We all know that the events of 2020 played a role in the announcement (and perhaps even the implementation) of the retheme.
What people are disagreeing with you on are your claims that:
- Disney cannot have thought this up for themselves ("I don't buy the 'it's just a coincidence that he had the exact same idea' claim"), though you now seem to be backtracking from that.
- Disney was pressured into this by Frederick Chambers and his petition.
Frederick Chambers does not wield the sort of power you are ascribing to him. Nor do the people (and they really weren't that numerous) who signed his petition. Based on what insiders have shared, the retheme did not originate with the events of 2020, though it was certainly catalysed by them. I don't know why you find that so hard to believe.
No Name
Well-Known Member
They probably mentioned that to rightly shift the credit/blame off of this Frederick Chambers guy and deter certain people from harassing him and dragging him through the mud for the next two years.
Mission failed, I guess.
LittleBuford
Well-Known Member
Also, this isn't true. @TP2000, who has insider contacts and is no great champion of the retheme, has more than once shared his knowledge that the project was already in the works before 2020, at least for Disneyland:
I'm going to put this here, although I think my original comments I need to apologize for were in some other thread.
In one of these Splash threads when the news broke a couple weeks ago, I was confident this was a slapdash response and I said Disney was lying when they said in the Parks Blog that this Tiana concept had begun development "last year". Yesterday I learned at a party that I was wrong about that, and WDI had in fact hatched this Tiana concept last year long before weeks of riots and looting and peaceful protesting swept across America in response to systemic racism and police brutality.
I need to protect the innocent here, but suffice it to say that there was a gentleman at the party who has been involved with WDI for many years and is in a position to know what he is talking about. (And no @Figments Friend it was NOT Mr. Baxter, whom I haven't seen in months since I took that sneaky photo for you after I ran into him shopping at the nearby Bristol Farms). But it was someone who would know what they're talking about. And here's what I learned...
The Tiana remake of Splash Mountain concept was actually proposed and given some funding for development back in 2019. Part of the way WDI operates is they are constantly dreaming up new ideas for the parks; sometimes they are all new builds and concepts, but often they are more affordable remakes and repurposing of existing park facilities. WDI stays in business and keeps their staff employed by having projects that are funded by the Parks division, and without those projects big and small the work dries up and Imagineers get laid off. So it behooves WDI management to always have a steady stream of slick and exciting new projects available to lure Parks executives into spending money and investing in the various parks around the world. They need a pipeline of attractive projects to show Parks execs keep the work going.
That said, the Tiana project for Splash Mountain did not come about because of any noble attempt by WDI to achieve social justice by removing the Song Of The South characters and story, they simply weren't thinking about it back in 2019. WDI's original driving goals behind redoing Splash Mountain were business driven, because they knew that even before Bob Iger's 2020 comments on the film it was unlikely Burbank would ever reverse course and embrace the Song Of The South characters, and thus the characters would remain relatively unknown by parks audiences and no real emotional attachment to that story could be leveraged. There was a minor undercurrent in WDI that Song Of The South wasn't very PC, but it was not a major element to the 2019 proposal to retheme Splash Mountain.
The Tiana concept was chosen as a project worthy of active development because the proposal was able to play up the connections to New Orleans themed food and cuisine, and thus the Food & Beverage departments in the parks could offer Instagram worthy food and drink concoctions for sale. The driving force with Bob Chapek in charge of WDI and the Parks (as he was in 2019 when the proposal was presented and given initial development funding) is to drive revenue across multiple departments; a new parks project has to prove that it is an IP that can translate directly into increased sales in either merchandise, dining, or upcharge experiences, and preferably at least two of those things if not all three.
And so Tiana's story was seen as a way to sell the project by connecting it to dining locations in the parks that already exist (New Orleans Square) or can be re-themed to help support the project (Hungry Bear Restaurant and the aging Pooh store with historically declining sales in Critter Country).
So work had actually been bubbling along on this Tiana Mountain idea for the past year. I asked how this works in WDW because Splash Mountain there is smack in the middle of Frontierland. I was laughingly told that the Tiana project was created with Disneyland in mind, but like many projects it also gets added to WDW as an afterthought. Star Wars Land was designed specifically for Disneyland's current location, and they knew they could wedge it in somewhere in WDW too. The Disneyland setting alongside New Orleans Square and a re-themed Critter Country is the ultimate goal for the project and the artistic vision they are designing for, and later they'll just wedge it into WDW next to Thunder Mountain because no one in Orlando is going to care or give them grief about it.
The other thing I learned was that the entire concept is very early in its development. It won't be opening for years. Under normal circumstances, even if it had gotten the green light from Burbank last month this idea would not have been announced publicly or seen the light of day for at least another 18 months if not longer. But the current political climate and the Twitter mob forced the issue before the ride was ready to be announced. That is why there is only one single piece of artwork available, and it was created quickly as a very generic view of the existing log ride with some characters and visual elements overlaid onto it. The real ride is still subject to many revisions and alterations, so there's no telling what actually is going to happen inside the ride where the show actually takes place. But screens will be included in the new show, and many of the America Sings animatronics will be retired permanently while the budget requires that some get repurposed into Princess & The Frog characters. The gentleman had not heard that the ride system will be changed in any meaningful way in Anaheim. There's no money for that anyway.
The other info I learned from the conversation is that many, many other active WDI projects have been put on indefinite hold at all the parks outside Japan. The sober realization in WDI is that Burbank will need to conserve cash and resources for at least several years, even after the parks, movie studios, cruise line, ESPN, DVC and mass merchandising all get "back to normal" hopefully sometime in 2021. Some of these mothballed construction projects (Tron, Marvel, Toontown, hotels, Anaheim's Downtown Disney) will be sitting silent around the parks for a year or more before they resume work. WDI management is just happy that the Tiana project got announced publicly and the current political climate forced Burbank to commit to it, so at least there is some development work happening in Glendale. But there are many other projects in development that haven't been announced yet that just met their sad demise. Layoffs will be coming to Glendale this fall.
I think that about sums up a chatty conversation that went in several different directions.
Basically the Tiana project had been in development since last year, they actually weren't lying about that like I assumed. But this Tiana project was not initially created out of some noble call to Social Justice, but rather it was initially conceived in 2019 to sell more Instagrammable moments at the adjacent restaurants and gift shops. Pooh and Song Of The South are not hot sellers and are definitely not Instagrammable. Luckily for Burbank and Glendale, they could quickly reposition this Splash Mountain makeover concept as being guided by a noble and lofty goal to bring Social Justice to the magic kingdom and quickly squash an embarrassing Twitter campaign.
smooch
Well-Known Member
I just wanna say these posts from this obscure forum on the internet from 2009 did not get any press coverage / articles written / etc. about them because that is not how the internet was in 2009. Anything and everything gets an article nowadays, I see articles written about my favorite Twitch streamers if they say something wrong on accident or do something incredible meaningless. One person tweeted an idea that, as proven by the fact that people have been suggesting PatF for Splash Mountain for over 13 years now. Maybe the person who originally tweeted it happened to luck out and predict it and then Disney used that small amount of attention the tweet got to make their announcement. Maybe Disney never even saw the tweet and happened to announce it due to the social climate the country was in.
I also keep seeing you refer to people as pro-rethemers when they have clearly stated they are not pro retheme but have been able to accept the fact that it is happening and try to understand what Disney's logic was. I would prefer to keep Splash, personally, due to my connection with the ride, but I accept that it will be gone just like my beloved ToT is gone now. Unless someone comes out and explicitly says they support the retheme and are excited for it, just simply discussing the ride and reasoning for Disney's actions, don't think they are pro retheme. I'm not sure why you even keep trying to use that phrase, it feels like you're trying to turn this into a one side vs. the other / us vs. them by calling others pro-rethemers while talking about how staunchly anti-retheme you are.
All that said, I think I'm tapping out of this discussion now, it is clear that you are not understanding what other people are saying and you have your heart set on uncovering this Disney conspiracy theory. If you come up with any evidence to prove us wrong please share it and I will apologize.
smooch
Well-Known Member
People online seem to believe petitions are some magical system to get people to do anything you want. I can't even count the times I have seen people create petitions assuming it will cause genuine change when it won't do anything, along with the amount of people who see something happen and then find out there was a petition with 150 signatures online and believe it was all the petition's fault that it happened. How would one person tweeting an idea for a Disney park that has been talked about online for 13+ years be forcing / pressuring Disney to retheme an entire ride and make a statement about it? Petitions show people support / care for certain topics, they don't bind the subject of the petition in any way to do what they asked them to do.
Brer Panther
Well-Known Member
You were so clearly mocking me. Don't try to deny it.
And how is constantly nagging me about how Splash Mountain MUST be rethemed, how anyone who objects to the idea is an insensitive racist and how The Princess and the Frog is the anti-Song of the South NOT trying to get me to agree with you?
No, but at least a hundred people online going on and on about what a great idea he had and how Disney should retheme Splash Mountain because it's racist is likely going to get someone at Disney to notice and realize "If we don't do this, we'll look bad for having a 'racist' attraction in the parks."
Well, his mocking Splash Mountain fans on Twitter and agreeing to do interviews with people over Disney using his idea sure didn't help with that. Guess nobody clued him in that Disney wasn't doing this because of him.
1) What about that other insider, @WDW Pro, who claimed that Disney announced the retheme out of fear that the demand to get Splash Mountain rethemed would lead to a Disney+ boycott? What about that "friend who knows some people who work for imagineering" who talked to @SuddenStorm back in November 2020 who told them that "with Walt Disney World actively fighting the retheme due to the thematic issues it would cause, which would negate planned savings on duplicating the attraction's set pieces on each coast with both coasts footing the bill for attraction development plus getting two 'new' rides to market for each resort- this retheme is very much not a done deal"? Or all those "insiders" claiming that plans for the Magic Kingdom's retheme of Splash Mountain were scrapped due to Tokyo not wanting to retheme theirs? How are those "insiders" any less trustworthy than @TP2000? And if they're not, why has there been so much conflicting information?
2) @TP2000's claim actually conflicts with what @GiveMeTheMusic claimed. The latter claimed that Disney was retheming Splash Mountain out of concern that people were actually offended by it (which I don't recall anyone ever actually saying that they were before 2020), the former claimed that Disney didn't actually care about that and just wanted to sell Tiana merchandise and "Instagrammable" food.
3) If all of that IS true, Chambers' pitch and the demand for a Princess and the Frog retheme of Splash Mountain that it caused are still (perhaps indirectly) responsible for the retheme being greenlit. He does straight-up say that the events that led to the announcement of the retheme were what caused it to be greenlit before they'd finished figuring out just how, exactly, they were going to do it.
4) If they were really so obsessed with shoving a Princess and the Frog ride into Critter Country so they could sell Tiana merchandise and food that people could post photos of on Instagram, why did they decide to go after Splash Mountain, an attraction that is (or at least was) very popular and also a highly-themed very large attraction that will likely be very difficult to retheme as opposed to the smaller, not as popular, likely at least a bit easier to retheme seeing how most of the sets aren't made out of SOLID CONCRETE, not very good Winnie the Pooh attraction nearby, if the ride's connections to Song of the South were not the reason for the retheme? Yes, Pooh is a popular character who sells merchandise, but @TP2000 did say that Disney doesn't consider him "a hot seller" or "Instagrammable" and they could easily build a better Pooh attraction elsewhere in the park. Did the idea never come up? Was that a separate proposal?
5) If what @TP2000 is claiming IS true, that basically confirms what I've been trying to say all along - that Disney is NOT, in fact, retheming Splash Mountain because they care about people being uncomfortable with its existence or because they suddenly love The Princess and the Frog (y'know, that movie they claimed supposedly didn't do well enough to justify continuing to make hand-drawn animated films?) now. Except instead of doing it because they're cowards who care more about their image, they're doing it because they want to sell Tiana dolls and beignets. This arguably makes it worse, because it means they're replacing a ride that features characters from African-American folklore to make money under the guise of wanting to be inclusive.
6) It also confirms several things I've suspected about the retheme - that most of the America Sings animatronics will be removed despite so many people claiming they'll be reused, that the layoffs were indeed to fund the retheme... meaning that people are now out of work because Disney wants to sell beignets in the hopes that people will post photos of them on Instagram... and that they don't have the budget to pull this retheme off.
7) If Disney isn't doing this because they're concerned for people being uncomfortable with Splash Mountain's existence or out of love for Tiana, WHY IS THAT THE JUSTIFICATION FOR THE RETHEME THAT I'VE HEARD REPEATEDLY WHENEVER I'VE COMPLAINED ABOUT IT? Why have my suggestions for other ways The Princess and the Frog could be brought into the parks that aren't at the expense of Splash Mountain (which would still allow them to sell their stupid beignets and Tiana merchandise) brushed off with "It's not about bringing Tiana into the parks, it's about removing the Brers" if it's not, in fact, about removing the Brers? If you all KNEW it wasn't about people being uncomfortable with the Brers' presence in Splash Mountain, why didn't anyone just say "Disney doesn't care, they're just doing this to sell Tiana dolls" instead of re-iterating that belief over and over again? Why are people going on and on about how The Princess and the Frog is the most not racist film ever made if racism wasn't a factor in the decision to retheme it? Why are people rolling their eyes at folks like me who hope that Disney will reconsider the retheme if they're not doing it because they think Splash Mountain uncomfortable? Why have we spent so much time arguing over whether or not the ride is racist if the retheme wasn't thought up because they want to scrub racism from the parks?
I am not trying to call @TP2000 a liar or anything, I just have some questions that I'd like to see answered.
Disney Irish
Premium Member
Its clear you've already made up in your mind what the answers are to your questions. So why should anyone try to answer you again for the 100th time if you're just not going to accept any answer other than what you've already made up in your mind?
LittleBuford
Well-Known Member
Perhaps @TP2000 can provide answers to your questions. I brought him up only because he disproves your claim that only "pro-rethemers" buy the idea that the project was already in the works.
I truly hope that you eventually come to terms with the retheme and perhaps even end up liking what we end up with.
Dear Prudence
Well-Known Member
The one thing I've mentioned before, and I will mention it again, THAT person (I refuse to name) used BIPOC pain and centered themselves and used said pain to elevate their own platform. Instead of passing the mic to the appropriate people, they made it all about them--because that's what it's actually about to them. Instead of blaming this person for taking your precious toy away, maybe be upset with them for a more legitimate reason, because using other people's pain for YOUR platform and clout is legit disgusting.
And, no, because of the above reasons alone, I absolutely do not think that person is capable of coming up with an idea that nuanced and complex all by themselves. They've clearly indicated they don't mind taking from others. Although I do find it suspicious they were able to talk that much ish about their employer and continued to work there.
The suggestions were made on YouTube back in 2018 and 2019. There was a YouTube video [I am too lazy to look up, sorrryyyy] that said, "what would you retheme Splash to? Now, don't say Princess and the Frog, that's TOO EASY"
And, no, because of the above reasons alone, I absolutely do not think that person is capable of coming up with an idea that nuanced and complex all by themselves. They've clearly indicated they don't mind taking from others. Although I do find it suspicious they were able to talk that much ish about their employer and continued to work there.
The suggestions were made on YouTube back in 2018 and 2019. There was a YouTube video [I am too lazy to look up, sorrryyyy] that said, "what would you retheme Splash to? Now, don't say Princess and the Frog, that's TOO EASY"
smooch
Well-Known Member
Nobody knows exactly when the PatF retheme idea first came to the Imagineers, nobody knows exactly why Disney announced the ride as early as they did / at the exact time they did, nobody knows why there has been so little information on it, nobody knows if the America Sings animatronics will survive or not, nobody knows anything. We are all theme park fans, if you want such concrete evidence in order to finally accept this retheme then you're just never going to accept it. Only Disney's higher ups know their true reasoning. You can choose to believe whatever you want, you can choose to reject whatever you want, but it doesn't change the objective fact that the retheme is happening.
There is no side of pro-rethemers vs. anti-rethemers, nobody is telling you what to think or how to feel, people are just answering your questions and when you don't like the answers you slightly change your claim and then ask 5 more questions about conflicting information from other people. These are all rumors, everyone is going to have a slightly different / conflicting claims. None of this is genuine fact, why do you need to know for absolute certain the reasoning behind this retheme?
There is no side of pro-rethemers vs. anti-rethemers, nobody is telling you what to think or how to feel, people are just answering your questions and when you don't like the answers you slightly change your claim and then ask 5 more questions about conflicting information from other people. These are all rumors, everyone is going to have a slightly different / conflicting claims. None of this is genuine fact, why do you need to know for absolute certain the reasoning behind this retheme?
Too Many Hats
Well-Known Member
I’m probably not the first person to ask, but how would we feel about a separate thread where we actually talk about, like, what we’d like to see in the new ride, etc. I’m as bummed as anyone that the Br’ers are going away, but holy s*** this conversation is tiresome.
Dear Prudence
Well-Known Member
Thank you.